Group...N Notts, S Yorks

[topcat450]

Right, this is my last attempt to get a number of folk interested in forming a group in an area from East Mids upto Near Sheffield, anywhere on that M1 corridor.

I'm looking to form a group around a cheap PFA type aircraft (or join an existing one) - Zenair, CFM, Auster, 150, Cub...basically the type is open at the moment.

So C'mon, there must be folks based at East Mids or Nottingham fed up with availability problems, and the costs involved? Can I tempt anyone to have a go at forming a group, ideally on a farm strip..to get some decent - low cost - high fun factor - flying in over the summer!

Lack of responses will cause me to post my PPL back to the CAA, buy a para-glider and join all the nimbys around the UK complaining about airport noise! you have been warned :ok: :)

[tacpot]

Sorry you are finding it difficult to locate some like-minded people to join you. In my experience the search is always difficult.

Have you:
1. Defined a mission for the aircraft? If you don't yet have an aircraft, if you can describe exactly the type of flying you wish to do, people who envisage using an aircraft in the same way as you will be more inclined to get in touch.

2. Have you set a budget, and investigated the likely running costs. If you do, you could could publish some hard figures, e.g "4 other people required to invest £3000 to purchase two-seat taildragger/nosewheel low wing/high wing, basically equipped {list examples of types being considered}, with monthly charge of no more than £45 and running costs of no more than £30/hr.) This may well produce more interest.

3. Found a strip/airfield and/or hangerage. This is a major concern and an significant cost. If you haven't found a strip to base the aircraft at, the group is a LONG way from being formed. This should be high up on your agenda.

Cna I suggest that what you need to do is put together a viable package, and then advertising this package, via www.TheHangar.co.uk & www.afors.com.

This will mean finding a strip where you can base an aircraft of the type you are looking at - try to get an agreement in principle from the owner and find out if any movement limitations apply. Find quotes for insurance and get an idea of Permit Renewal costs, fuel and oil consumption costs, and may be even find an instructor familar on the type who can convert new member so of the group onto the aircraft. You also need to factor in the cost of a licenseed engineer or PFA inspector to inspect any potential purchase.

Although this is a lot of work, the fact that this groundwork has been done, will make it much easier to a prospective member to consider what is being offered. Once you have enough prospective group members to make the idea viable, I would then carve up the jobs, so that other group members share the load of setting the group up. You come up with the plan - you all execute it.

[topcat450]

Hi and thanks for that. I was trying to keep it open for the time being to encourage as many responses as possible...however....

The type..I've got my heart set on an auster at the moment but I'm more than happy to look at newer kit-types. However Austers can be run v cheaply...short and rough strips...and can carry a decent load.

Costs, for 4 or 5 people maximum capital of £5K although £3K would be easier on my wallet. costs of less than £40 per month and £30 per hour....so...the questions remains.... :)

[big.al]

Topcat -

I'm looking at joining a group, although I'd probably prefer something more like a four seater (or at least capable of carrying two plus full fuel plus some baggage). I'm meeting with a group tomorrow but if this doesn't work out I'll still be on the lookout.

I currently fly out of Netherthorpe but am looking at Gamston - I think Nottingham would be too far to make it worthwhile for me.

Never flown an Auster or Cub, but how about a Jabiru or Europa? I gather they are both cheap to run.

I agree with tacpot - unless you state what type(s) of aircraft and where it will be based, it may be difficult to get any prospective partners to think seriously about forming a new group, especially if shares exist for sale in well established groups.

But whatever happens, good luck.....

[BlueRobin]

Cubs and Europas are expensive to buy at c. £35k a piece and are therefore difficult to source unless you know people and have the money up front. This not the case when starting a group. Believe me, I've been there, done that.

TC's idea for a/c types is sound.



BR

..he's the most tip-top, topcat :cool:

[Grob Driver]

Topcat…

Work out some figures and post them back here! I’d love to join an Auster syndicate, but it all depends on the £££££!!!!

Not sure if I could afford it... I’ve never given it much serious thought, but let us know what you think the costs would be, and well… you never know!

Cheers

Grob Driver

[Vick Van Guard]

Saw a very nice Auster for sale at Tollerton today. Fully restored, new fabric etc. I think its a J1/N. Priced at about 17k.
I saw the advert a few weeks ago but only saw the aircraft today.

[topcat450]

Yes I agree a Europa or similar would be nice but as BR hinted at, way out of my price range. £30K + for a europa...versus £15K for a Auster. They're not leagues apart perfomance wise either. I'd need double the number of people to make my money stretch. I've also seen a couple of these available too and they're in good nick.

I'll get the figures to you shortly grob driver...

Thanks

[tacpot]

Looks like with 5 people putting down £3500 + £30/month +£30/hr you could be flying that Auster.

But it will need hangerage...

[BlueRobin]

Hangarage even ;) :p

[BlueRobin]

The Auster then. Assuming purchase price of £15k, 6galls/hr@£1per litre....a six person group would work out to be:

share=£2500
wet rate = £35/hr
monthlies = £45

This is with pricey maintenance rates thrpwn in for good measure. Monthly rates largely depend on finding a hangar and insurance rates, which come with no NCD.

So. £35 per hour! :eek: Short strip, cheap to fly. Yesh please :)

What's up with you lot? Too scared to venture outside of your spam can?



*** rates calculated with BlueRobin's very rough 'n' ready reckoner. ***

[tacpot]

You put yours in a 'garage I'll put mine in a 'gerage. :D

No one said I could spell! And what's worse is I've made the same mistake before on pprune - I got all uppity about how TheHangar website was always down, and then someone pointed out that I was typing www.thehanger.co.uk.

[topcat450]

Blue Robins Figures look the same as I'd worked out, and there are a couple of groups already around with figures like these or lower, one at Sywell if I remember and one in Litchfield. So it is possible to do, and after my phone conversation at Netherthorpe today...(we'll fit you in on May 3rd which for someone like me who works mon-fri means a 4 week waiting list for an aircraft!) I'm as keen as ever to give it a go.

[ratsarrse]

I would be interested meself, but...
There's a few details to consider like finishing my PPL first! :{
I don't think I could contemplate joining a group until I had a minimum 100 hours experience under my belt, and I suspect that most groups would feel the same way about me.
I like the look of Austers and would love an opportunity to fly one. Give it a couple of years and if someone drops out, I could be your man to step heroically into the breach.

[topcat450]

Don't worry about the group wanting a 100Hr requirement, I havent got 100 hrs...and I wont be able to afford to get upto 100Hrs at rental prices ...so as soon as you pass, you'll have to let me know:ok:

[BlueRobin]

This can be removed for a pilot typically by increasing the excess limit.

[Rob_L]

Suggest a C150 to start. Bottom of the price range. 4 galls an hour. Loads of used parts available. New parts not excessive.
If the group works you can always upgrade or buy a second aircraft. If it fails not the end of the world.

[topcat450]

Thanks for that, I wouldnt mind a 150 to be honest, its well known, can have decent fit (for IMC work) but my only minor worry was that it'd be full CofA rather than PFA....and so the costs again go up.

Also, there's a lot of schools that hire 150s for £70 per hour or there abouts, are they making a large margin on that or are the running costs that expensive. I was just thinking schools will probably get higher utilisation figures than I would and if they're not making much off £70 per hour I doubt I could afford to run one - it'd be cheaper for me to rent.