Getting a flying job - Uni or Work ???

[Trislander]

Hi. .. .I am 18 and in my last year of college, I too have applied to do BSc Av. Management & Ops. at London Guildhall. I still can't decide though whether going to uni for 2 years, getting into debt, then having to work for several years would be more of a setback towards my flying career or not. I really want to get into it as soon as possible. I could instead work for three years starting this year, while building up my hours and starting module 1 (ATPL distance learning).. .. .Does anyone have any opinions on what I should do out of these two routes???. .. .All your help in mostly appreciated.. .. .Cheers, Tri

[DVR6K]

Wotcha,. .. .I was in the same position a few years back Tri.. .. .Since I have been at Exeter uni, I have had the best time of my life, got horribly into debt, got a beer belly, taken advantage of young women, had a great time with mates and would not have wanted anything else!!! What´s more, I´m gonna walk out with a shiny degree which is a lot of use to me if the flying career doesn´t work out (something a lot of wannabees forget about when they get tunnel vision re flying for a living).. .. .You can read ATPL books at uni because you have time on your hands now and then so works nicely.. .. .The temptation is to rush into a flying career, but if you´re 18 and spend 2 or 3 years at uni, oh no, you´ll be 20/21 when you get out, which is a lot younger than many people start out.. .. .Go to uni, have the time of your life, get a degree to fall back on, you may need it.. .. .Good luck!!

[Fast Jet Wannabe]

Tri,. .. .As you already know, I'm in the same prediciment as you! Mail me and I'll tell you my ideas. I'm keen to hear what you think about LGU.. .. .I'm interested that in several of your posts you've said that you are only going to go for 2 years. Whats made you only go for the foundation degree and not stay the third year in order to get the full honours degree?. .. .Cheers,. .. .FJW.

[Rusty Cessna]

I have to echo the words above. As you know I'm in the same situation as you, and will hopefully get a better understanding of your position when you mail me.. .. .I think that LGU's BSc is an excellent oportunity, it offers the chance to get a degree and take full benefit of the experiences associated with it and its way of life etc, whilst also allowing to study a degree that is very much aviation based, and should the flying all go to pot you have something to fall back on, which will be enable you to still get into aviation on the ground, or most other managment industries. . .. .As I say hopefully speak to you soon,. .Rusty.

[Perfect PFL]

If you were guaranteed a flying job, and that's definitely what you want to do, then I'd say go for it, and forget uni. As it seems that you are deciding on the best option between working in another job, or going to uni, then I would say that the uni option is certainly the best way to go. Otherwise what happens in 3 years time when you don't get a flying job, what do you do then? Without a degree to fall back on you'll have much less option.. .I was in the same position as you a few years back, and the only thing that made me decide to go to uni was that I couldn't apply to BA till I had my a-level results, so thought I may as well apply to some universities. I ended up going to Nottingham Uni, getting a BSc in Maths with Engineering, and spending three years on East Midlands UAS. If you can join a UAS while you are at Uni I would really recommend doing it. I did 120 hours on the Bulldog, including what I'm sure will be the best flying I'll ever do.. .In my final year I then started applying for the airline sponsorships, went through a few selection processes, but didn't manage to get onto any of the schemes. Then I finished uni with a BSc (hons) and having completed the RAF Elementary Flying training. I then applied again to all the sponsorships schemes, and at the same time got my PPL.. .I then thought it was about time to get a proper job, and luckily I had a good degree, giving me the choice of lots of interesting jobs related to what I enjoy, aviation. So here I am 18 months later doing research work on military aircraft escape systems, very interesting an varied work, fair bit of good stuff on my CV now.. .When I now start applying to the airlines again, who is going to look better on the application form? Someone who left school at 18 and went into a job to earn a bit of money, or someone who went to university, got a good degree, did lots of flying with the RAF, and now has 2 years experience in the aviation industry? Maybe it's not a clear thing, but I certainly know which will be in the better position if neither of them are successful with the airline.. .Hopefully my situation will give you something to help you think.. .. .Good luck with whatever you decide to do though.

[feetnkneestogether]

Here, here Perfect PFL.. .We hear all the time of wannabes aged 17/18 - 21 who are just mad, desparate keen to get into aviation.. .The fact is we're all mad, desparate keen to get into a flying job but the realities of life means you can't always have what you want, or at least not until you have sweated blood.. .Life is long and if you plan it from an early age you will definitely get there. You just have to be patient & apply yourself.. .Perfect PFL has made the point perfectly.. .Having completed a Uni degree, got some free flying, some more life experience, responsibilty for the self (and some Command for others -UAS (?)) and experience in the working world. ...and still only 22/23 ? . .Who in their right mind is going to hire a 19 year old to flying a £50m B737 with 150 lives on board!?! I know there are a lucky few but they were obviously outstanding individuals in their short lives. . . . .In this day and age you MUST have a Degree if you want to get into a job at a high enough level to get accelerated into a position of responsibility (and therefore good pay bracket) where you can either spend it flying, or, pay for house, family & kids in another career.. .. .Trislander, I know I probably sound like your Dad but believe me you have plenty of time to do both. Enjoy Uni, it's great, aviation will still be there when you lurch out the other side.. .That CV's got to have more on it than Air Cadets and computer club !! . .. .Good Luck

[luddite]

For what it's worth, back in the old days, I got my PPL at the same time as my 'A' levels and my father (bless him) reckoned it would cost him about the same to either support me through university or to the stage where I had an instructor rating. Back then you could instruct on a PPL. My choice. Silly me took the flying option. Since then I've had more than enough airlines go bust around me, and last year, even though the airline's still going, I was specially selected for redundancy from a cast of several. Surprise surprise they've now realised they don't have enough crews for the summer and have been generous enough to give me my job back.. .Over the last few years I've been spending my 'leisure' hours working my way through a degree with the Open University, the intention being to get qualified for something real and walk away from aviation. So my advice is - go to university in the first place!! Aviation is no job for a grownup.

[doomsday]

I agree with Luddite on this one. Definately go to university so that if flying doesn't work out you've got something to fall back on. Perhaps you should even look at doing a non flying based degree so that if you find yourself in the same situation as Luddite, myself and a cast of thousands have been in over the last six months you'll have a chance of getting a proper job if the sh*t hits the fan. You've got the benefit of youth on your side, go have fun while you can.

[Irish Flyer]

Four years ago I was placed with the decision of whether I would a) Go to college and gain a degree or b) follow my dream like everyone else on this site and train to become a commercial pilot. After careful advice I choose to go with option a and get a degree. I placed flying to the back of my mind for those few years and decided to put my greatest effort into getting the qualification. Am I happy about the decision I made? Most definately. I now have a degree in Information Technology behind me now and am due to start my full time Integrated Pilot training next month to continue on my path for my dream career. However, and I am stressing this point. The only reason I am doing it now is because I have this qualification to fall back on should anything go wrong. . .. .Remember, it's not only the industry's environment that affects your decision. You should never forget that you have strict medicals to pass each year from now until you retire to stay in the industry as a pilot. Not wishing it on anyone but the smallest accident could finish you career on medical grounds at any stage. GO to college. Enjoy it and then consider your options when you graduate. What college thought me was that I have an interest in computers but my desire to get into aviation never faded during those few years. . .. .Make a sensible decision. You might find that after starting something new, on whatever course you choose that you may forget about flying altogether or like me it made you realise that it was something you could never forget.

[C. Yeager]

I disagree.. .After spending a year studying computer programming, a course which interests me, ive decided to leave uni and pursue my life long dream. I know its good to have a back up but why spend 3/4 years doing a course in uni when you really want to be a pilot at the end of the day. Lifes too short to be waisting time being safe. Take a risk and go for your dreams!. .Worst case senario is you spend a couple of years flight training and if for some reason you dont succeed, go back to uni and get the degree.. .Thats my two cents!

[Flyingspaniard]

Oh well, I'm ready for the critisism, but I'm gonna say it anyway.. .. .If you're going to rely on a sponsorship to get yourself into aviation, then a degree will definately stand you in better stead. However if you want to persue the career regardless I would get going on a job right away.. .. .The chances of succeeding in a sponsorship are farely rare unless you're an outstanding candidate, however, we can ALL save for ATPL training. The degree route will take a while as most graduates are lucky to walk into a graduate placement anyways. I have friends with degrees who are still earning less than me after graduating 3 years ago. Don't forget you are now probably going to be used to living away from home and will want your own space so more bills not to mention student loans to pay. Saving will be more difficult. You are going to have to wait say six to seven years before you get qualified. Fine if you're prepared to wait that long. I know I wouldn't be. . .. .There are certain sectors eg Financial Services, Insurance and IT where the remuneration is good even without a degree.. .. .Get a job. Start saving. Live at home so you don't have to pay much or any rent. Within 2 years you'll have enough to pay for your training (maybe with help from bank). You'll have valuable work experience to fall back on should you need to support yourself after your training and finally you'll be in a position to find pilot work in 3 years rather than 7. You can always do on the job training and professional exams (microsoft quals, chartered insurance, financial, all sorts) to improve your salary and prospects while you go. And of course there's always the opportunities to get a degree via the OU or mature entry to uni later on if things don't work out.. .. .Life is short, so live it fast. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[JT8]

Tri,. .. .Go to uni, due to the reasons explained above in most replies. Its difficult at a young age when your dying to get flying, but you'll be against some stiff opposition - like me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> Im 23 Aero Eng grad,PPL, worked for Big Airways and currently working for a full flight simulator manufacturer. Hope to have my fATPL and be applying for airline jobs at 25. That way I have:. .. .*A degree to fall back on should the flying go belly up.. .*Relevant work experience which is aviation / airline based.. .*Still young enough to offer an airline many years of service, but with a little more maturity than a 20 year old training straight from A-Levels. . .. .That's the theory anyway. Luck is apparantly is the most important element! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Good luck with it.. .JT8. .. .P.S: I strongly dissagree with those saying 'you can alsways go back to university afterwards to get your degree'. Thats not very likely to happen when you've got your fATPL in hand.. . . . <small>[ 26 March 2002, 21:45: Message edited by: JT8 ]</small>

[Trislander]

Thanks everyone for your opinions.. .. .Rusty, FJW: I have emailed you (Finally!). .. .I agree with Flying Spaniard and C. Yeager but I also see the point that the rest you have put across about a degree being useful to fall back on.. .. .Tri

[pholooh]

I know the industry is really shaky and having something to fall back on is a real good idea. But WHY THE HELL DO PILOT'S HAVE A DEGREE IN SOMETHING ELSE? It's not fair but what can we do.
I'm halfway through an aviation maintainance management degree after bowing to pressure from parents, and have never touched an airplane.
I dsagree with people who say the airlines prefer more mature people. The head of BA recruitement some time back once said they prefer pilots to be as close to 18 as possible. "Catchy youngy, teachy easy" were his exact words.
BUt evrything is a gamble, 10 years from now the aviation industry could be blooming, while the information technology, medical, financial, etc industries might be trying to eat the crumbs that have fallen off our plates. For example, it is almost impossible to get a computer related job in the US.
Everyday I do regret not going straight into flight training. But everyone onthis post has a point :D :mad: :confused: :cool:

[Lucifer]

pholooh - It would appear that the attitude of getting them as young as possible is now held by RAF rather than BA. Perhaps a look at some of the BA courses' own websites would convince you of their current background.

[franksnbeans]

Having gained my PPL, and almost completed my ME rating, I have decided to go back to uni full time and fly ME A/c privately once a month or so. I work about 30 hrs a week, so I'm putting a few more $ into a savings account, and when I finish my degree, I'll have enough to get my CPL, NVFR, and instructor rating.

At the moment, I'm at at uni part time, and doing my CPL theory at night school. In this CPL class, there are about 12 poeple, from all different backgrounds and age groups. I can see that those who did well at school, have a degree and are a bit younger (19 - 30) seem to learn a lot quicker than those who left school early to do a trade and are a bit older (35 - 40). (no offense to anyone, as this is not really an accurate controlled experiment, just what i've noticed)

Why?

school teaches you how to learn a specific way, with poeple breathing down the back of your neck. Uni is different. You learn to take care of yourself and you are responsible for yourself. I can see how much I have matured in just 1.5 years. I have learned the best way for me to learn, if you know what I mean(?). I hope that those of you who have a choice will choose the degree route.

My only problem now is staying disiplined enough to stick to a limited amount of flying, just enough to satisfy my craving.

My suggestion is go to uni, mature as a person and save money for your flying. There are next to no jobs out there at the moment, but in another few years, when you have a DEGREE behind you, it'll be as good, if not better than it was pre 911.

That's the way I see it.

fnb

P.S. uni is great fun, I've made heaps of mates, and the girls are hotter than they were at school (and more experienced aswell;) )

[Spacer]

I was trying to decide a couple of years ago between going to uni, and going directly into the RAF/BA. I chose uni, and I'm sure that I made the best choice. I would recommend uni to anyone, and say that joining either of my options at 17/18 would be silly. You need time to mature and sort out what you really want out of life. They even pay more when you are a grad! That proves who the employers want.

[P.Pilcher]

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. He is self employed and many years ago, I taught him to fly which is how we met. As he has his own business, he has never gone down the path to an aviation career, but his PPL has given him an interest and success in air racing and he has owned several A/C. We were discussing another friend of ours who decided in his 30's to give up a very successful and lucrative career as an architect to make a huge financial sacrifice and go flying for a living. He did well and now, a number of years later, is in the left hand seat for Airtours. He tells us he is now totally sick of the job!! At least if he does give up he can go back to drawing houses for a living.