PPL (A) The real cost££££

[mikegreatrex]

On the 4th June 2001 I ventured into the skies for the first of what I thought would be about 55 hours of flying training. Having passed my skills test last week, I thought I would take this opportunity to relate the true cost of my training to date.

Whilst we all like to think that we will take 45 hours to learn to fly in what is a reasonably unrestricted environment, the reality is somewhat different (72:10 for me). Certainly in the run up to my first solo (17 hours, I thought I would do it in ten hours too) all my training had been quite intense, which is well worthwhile, with my solo being acheived in less than a month.

From then on and for primarily financial reasons, I had to resort to the once a week or perhaps every other week phylosophy, which is where the costs start to mount. This is because the first 10-15 minutes of each flight are spent revising the last lesson. Those just starting out need to bear this in mind when budgeting for their training.

So on to the costs:-

School Membership fees (compulsory) - £195
Books & stuff - £200ish
Exam fees - £270
Hourly fees - £7056 (72 hours @ £98ph
Licence issue - £140

Total cost = £7861

Would I train in the UK if I had my time ovber again? well yes and know.

I think an intensive ppl course in the states would have been a better option, so long as you discipline yourself to a further 10 hours UK flying at least. This is primarily weather related on both counts. Learning in the states will allow a more intensive schedule less likely to be disrupted by the elements at a cheaper $rate. No waiting around for weeks for a weather window to do your QXC (in the UK this always means more cost as the school will probably want you to do a landaway every three weeks at least whilst your waiting). Doing ten hours when you get back ensures that you can cope with the UK environment.

One other thing, and this is just my opinion, learn to fly with an FTO that is close to, or even better in a controlled environment. For me this was EGNX. Why? well from day one you have to use the radio in a disciplined manner which makes the use of them less initimidating when you come to do your first solo navs. In addition being surrounded by professional aircrew is a great inspiration!

Best tip - Be realistic about your budget.

Happy flying.

Regards

Mike

[carb]

I agree training in a controlled environment is a good thing, but in respect of taking 10 hours of extra dual flying after an intensive course in the US, I think it depends where in the US you went and where in the UK you're flying. I trained in busy California airspace with really hostile weather. Came back to the UK and went flying up in Scotland, and it was far less demanding - weather happened to be fine for weeks, the mountains half the height, virtually no other traffic anywhere, and ATC far more relaxed. And, at least when the weather is bad, I'm familiar with it, unlike all the desert and tropical stuff going on in foreign parts.

[Irv]

I had to estimate total PPL cost about 2-3 years ago for an article. At that time I estimated a WHOLE cost of nearly £7000 in London dropping to something well over £5000 as you moved away from there- included everything however minor - medicals, membership, etc and assuming people learning at weekends and taking nearer 60 hours than 45. I know it's easier in one sense to learn in the UK, but you can't really blame people for going abroad (eg: SA about £3000-ish nowadays all-in) - that's an awful lot of savings to use back here. However, it's not just money is it:

Whilst researching the costs, I drove into an airfield reasonably near London (but not M25 country) and visited 2 well known schools as a 'drop in' customer.
1- Despite 'looking like I wanted attention', I was totally ignored at the counter for over 5 munutes whilst 2 young instructors in nice black trousers, white shirts and dark blue 'pullies' who were supposed to be manning the desk stood back and talked about possible airline interviews. Finally after 5 minutes a 3rd older part-time instructor at the back of the room who had been doing an excellent job debriefing a trial lesson looked up from it and said "you are bring dealt with aren't you?" and was horrified to hear that I wasn't
2- I went into the other school. Both guys who were supposed to be behind the desk (even nicer uniforms) were in front of it, blocking the way as they were watching and discussing a rugby match on TV. I had to say 'excuse me' to get through between them to the brochure stand by the counter where I deliberately looked at the basic 'PPL' brochure for 5 minutes, without any comment from them. I then decided to see if they would actually let me leave without talking to me. I had to say 'excuse me' again to get out. I was in there for 5 minutes and the only words passed between me and the staff were me saying 'excuse me' twice, once to get in, once to get out. :rolleyes:

[Andy_R]

And don't forget to factor in the invisible costs, for example fuel to and from the airport. Assuming £5 for the return journey and that 50% of your journeys will be wasted due to cancellations due to the weather, that immediately adds £600 to the costs, again assuming 60 hours to complete your initial training.

Re Irv's point, I wonder just how many potential students are lost through the attitude of staff to newcomers? Personal experience can only back up the point that Irv makes. Indeed last week I visited a new club and their attitude was soooo refreshing it really opened my eyes. They could not have been more helpful, knowlegable or encouraging and that was prevalent from the front desk through to the instructors.
Despite having the lesson weathered off I spent over 4 hours being shown around premises and aircraft, being introduced to staff and students and generally being made to feel welcome. Even if it wasn't the closest airport to home it would be worth any extra fuel cost. Sadly this is not the attitude or professionalism displayed by the majority of schools/clubs I have visited.

[tomcs]

Hi....i did mine in the summer of 2001 in 7 weeks....however after i had finished the training i had to wait for a month or two before the weather was good enough for the Skills Test. Flying every now and again to maintain skills etc.

I took 46 hours and then the skills test so 48 hours and i reckon with everything in it was about £6000 because of things like examiners fees which rely inflated the cost. I think the skills test cost £419 (2.5 hours hire and £75 an hour examiner fees!!)

So just when you think you're nearly there it all gets more expensive! :)


Tom

[FlyingForFun]

Why is everyone so obsessed with the cost of getting a license?

With the exception of anyone going on to do commercial training, it is simply not relevant. What is especially not relevant is the time it takes to get your license, and the costs associated with that time.

Mike - you say you took 72 hours to get your license. And I notice that it took you just short of 22 months. That works out at around 3 1/4 hours per month, which sounds perfectly reasonable. So, at £100/hr, you're paying around £325/month (I'm rounding some figures a little here - you quote your actual cost at £98/hr).

Now, let's imagine you'd got your license in the 55 hours you'd planned on. The total flying cost then would have been £5500 (as opposed to £7200 for 72 hours at £100/hr). You'd have completed your PPL in around 17 months - 5 months earlier. Then what would you have done for the next 5 months? Well, hopefully you'd have been flying! I don't know what rate you pay to hire post-PPL, let's call it £80, and let's also assume you fly for the same number of hours per month after getting your license. So your rental costs over the 5 month period would have been (5 * 3.25 * 80) = £1300. Total cost over a 22 month period of (£5500 + £1300) = £6800. A total saving of a whopping £400 - far less than the £1700 which it seems like you'd have saved at first glance! Of course all the other costs that you list, like books and exam fees, would be exactly the same regardless of how many hours you take.

I generally try not to tell people how much a PPL costs, because I don't think it's relevant. It's far more important to figure out how much flying costs, per month, and to make sure you can afford that. As long as you can afford the monthly cost of flying, you'll be able to afford the PPL. (The books, exam fees, license issue and so on need to be taken into account too, although they are relatively small and unlikely to make or break the issue of getting a PPL.)

Enjoy your new freedom now you've passed your skills test! :) But don't expect it to get cheaper unless you're prepared to buy a share in your own aircraft.

FFF
------------

[Julian]

Well the main advantage to me for saving money when taking the PPL, be it in the UK or abroad is if you have a couple of grand left over you can put it towards something a lot more worthwhile than your PPL such as another rating or even a share in an aircraft!

Cost me about £4500 for 62.5hrs in the US including two lots of flights, accom, food, beer, etc. so that would be £3k to spend elsewhere in my case.

[Rod1]

I did my licence in 91 for an all in cost of just under 3500 (46 hours). I had got a maximum available of 3800 ish so I did a lot of careful budgeting before I started. If it had come out much over the 3800 I would have had to pull the plug.

With hindsight, I would recommend the people with no money to go for an intensive course somewhere quiet. The people with no cash problems can do anything as it makes no difference to them!

Rod

[FNG]

Following up on Irv's post, it never fails to amaze me how flying clubs tend to react to punters who walk in metaphorically clutching a bag containing thousands of pounds. I had experiences similar to those Irv describes when I visited schools around London when deciding who to train for a PPL with. The "front of house" in many flying schools leads a lot to be desired.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm sure Irv is right in what he says, but an interesting point arises from it.

What is the best value for money way to get a PPL, and be safe to fly in the UK on your own? Is it for example...

(1) Go to the US, do a cheap intensive course, then come back and do another dozen hours learning to fly in UK airspace?

(2) Go and do gliding for a year, then convert a silver-C to a PPL(A)?

(3) Do an NPPL(microlight), or close variation, then convert, perhaps cheaply abroad having already learned how to fly in the British flying environment?

(4) Learn at a steady rate with a local UK school?

I know that (3) worked for me, but I did a fair few hundred hours on microlights before converting so then did my PPL(A) in the absolute minimum so am hardly typical.


Another obvious question is what do the management of flying schools do wrong to get such inattention from it's front of house staff? I'd suggest paying by the flying hour on short term contract with no incentives towards the basic health of the business would be an obvious cuplrit.


G


N.B. Given how often Irv's picture appears in Flyer, a particular demerit for the young FIs for not recognising him and saying hello.

[Irv]

I dare not say how much I paid for my PPL, but it was a nice round figure :O :D

[Penguina]

Re. Irv's comments - 2 FTOs lost me and my squids through exactly the same reaction to my surfacing there - and I wasn't marching out in disgust either, but slinking out in shame, putting it all down to the idea of me learning to fly being evidently ludicrous. Just as well I persevered, really.

As to how much custom they lost - well, I don't have the moral fibre to add the invoices I've carefully filed quite yet! I think if I knew the truth and had nothing to show for it I might curl into a little ball and suck my thumb for a few days... But PPL should be this spring if all goes to plan, so I'll give you a grand total then.

Though, that said, since I'm not a broken woman and still have a roof over my head, and haven't even sacrificed all my beer money, it's not the biggest deal. What else would I have done with that money that was better? :)

[Dusty_B]

Gengis wrote:
I'd suggest paying by the flying hour on short term contract with no incentives towards the basic health of the business would be an obvious cuplrit.

If paying by the flying hour were the main factor, then I'd expect the FIs to be jumping on the punter to take him up for a trial flight.

It's got to be a general attitute problem, rather than a payment terms problem. (Yes, that is still something the management need to deal with).

I guess the attitude is based on a certain amount of lazyness and lack of forethought on the part of the hour-building types: They're there to fly, they're not focused on the customer - they're not there to BE instructors.

I do agree that the lack of loyalty and business awareness isn't helped by small pay cheques, but it isn't the only factor. Some people simply need training in business and customer awareness.

[Dude~]

If you have 4 weeks free, the US PPL is a great idea, just be prepared for more than an hour long checkout back in the UK.

I paid £2K for a 55hr course in 1997, then did a 1.3 hr checkout back in UK. I have since realised I was totally ignorant in some regards, (mainly radio, but also navigation, and of course grasss stips, which is actually quite a big deal when you are a new PPL) but not dangerously so. Certainly a bonus though when it comes to going back for hour buikding as its all familiar. I found Popham very hard to find at first in the UK. My first flight with pax (my Dad) took 1.1hrs for a 30nm trip to Popham. With practise I did it in 0.4!!

Irv, it never ceases to amaze me how some schools igore me when I walk in. Here I am, a qualified Pilot, wanting to pay them up to £130 per HOUR. Boy. What are they on?!

They should kiss my feet.

And often their planes are crap and tatty.

I'm looking for another group like the one I used to be in at Popham. Cheap and reliable, and no arrogant staff.

!!
;) ;)

[greatorex]

Irv is absolutely right. I know that when my daughter started her PPL, she and I went to almost all of the flying schools around London and I was appalled by the lack of general standards of not just commercial common sense but friendliness and, dare I say it, professionalism. When we visited these schools, we agreed at the outset that we would never mention that I was a pilot – just to see what the view as a general ‘punter’ would be. I will not name names but all I will say it that Irv’s experiences, sadly, appear to be ‘the norm’!

Personally, if I were the Editor of one of the UK’s flying magazines (Irv, you can tell the boss he can have this one for free ;) ) I would start a ‘Mystery Customer’ article and go around one or two flying school’s a month, posing as a customer – and then write an honest appraisal of what you find, warts and all. . . . Sure if the school advertises with the magazine and they get a bad review, the magazine may lose a small chunk of advertising revenue, but I suspect it wouldn't be for long and My God, it would ‘put the cat amongst the pigeons’!!!!
:cool: ;) :cool: ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Sort of with you Dusty, but...

If, let's say, instructors were employed on a long term contract (I'm on 3 months notice, why shouldn't they be!), with a guaranteed minimum income, and minimum working hours (weather's crap, so what, you're still part of the business come and tidy / teach groundschool / talk to the customers / polish the aeroplanes) - and even a bonus based upon profitability of the school - many other businesses run that way quite happily.

All down to attitude, but different management practices do tend to change staff attitudes. Paying by the hour, with no security of employment or income, and not expecting people to come in if they haven't lessons booked, doesn't strike me as the right approach.

G