Best group aircraft????

[Diamond 'katana' geezer]

Hi all,
I am helping set-up a group of young inexperienced PPL's get hold of a group aircraft. Our first thoughts are, no complex types, no tailwheels and low running costs.

Safety and maintainace will all be taken care of by the local flying club, for a fee. This means there will always be an instructor around to guide the group members.

150/2's jump straight to mind for a budget of £20000 to buy and run for a year. sound sensible?

now the interesting bit, for me anyway. The group needs sponsorship only a little, maybe a lower insurance fee here, or a few reduced landing fee there. in return publicity and an advertising space on our aircraft. Does anyone know of any companies/persons that would sponsor us? Do you think this is a resonable idea?

all comments welcome
thanks for your time

Geez:cool:

[LowNSlow]

DkG I assume you have no hangerage available hence the C150/152 route?

Lets have a look at the costs:

Insurance 1,200 assuming inexperienced pilots
Parking 600 minimum
Annual 2,000
Maintenance 500 per annum

Total 4,300 GBP

This leaves you 15,700 GBP to buy the Cessna. This puts you into C150 territory rather than C152. There are a few around at this price but it is getting to the lower end of the price v condition curve!

Running costs:

For 20,000 GBP you can fly 182 hours @110/hour without the hassle of aircraft ownership

Fuel @ 4 quid / gallon and 5 gall/hour = 20GBP / hour
Oil @ 3 quid / quart and 1 pint / hour = 1.5GBP / hour

At these prices, the group would have to fly 225 hours in the first year to bring their running costs down to 110/hour.

Alternatively you could buy the 2 seat Rans Sakota for 7,500 as advertised in the PFA magazine. Unfortunately it's a tailwheel aeroplane though. Just like the inexperienced students in the RAF flew with a bit of training...........;) ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Personally I prefer the 150 to the 152 anyway, better flaps, and being a shortarse, I can see over the coaming,which I can't in a 152 without a booster cushion. Same bracket, a Rallye would be worth looking at.


However, I think LowNSlow has a very valid point there. If you don't mind being limited to day-VMC look seriously at a PFA type. Purchase is cheaper, fuel is cheaper (almost invariably you can run on MOGAS), maintenance is cheaper - most of it you can do yourselves, engine maintenance is MUCH cheaper because you're not limited by certified engine regulations.

Downside is that no ab-initio training can be done (but to save money you'd probably have been on a private CofA anyway, so the same would have applied). Upside is the PFA coaching scheme, or as you wish a local QFI familiar with the type, can still do any conversion training.

Pick the right aircraft and you can still tie-down (maybe after spending a thousand pounds on a top-notch set of covers), and will still have happily benign handling. I'd suggest (just looking at the ads in a convenient copy of Popular Flying) a nosewheel Europa, Piper Cub, Rans S-6, Jodel D120 - all could meet your needs and keep costs way beyond operating something with a CofA.

And, much as I love taildraggers myself, I think you are wise with a group specifically for less experienced pilots to keep three wheels, with one at the front.

G

[Diamond 'katana' geezer]

Thanks for your replies,

The PFA option hadn't come to mind at all, thanks for that :D

Hangerage is available to the group. i don't know how much this changes your recomemdations, but i'd thought i'd let you know.

The group are very seriously looking at gaining sponsorship. In fact about £10000 maybe available. do you think gaining more will be difficult? how can we go about it?

A 150(ford escort;) ) seems good, but dare i say a little boring. these students are on their way to fATPL's will a PFA type help them or hinder them? how much attension should i pay to the equipment in the aircraft?

as before thanks for your time

:cool:

[rustle]

"...these students are on their way to fATPL's..." "...how much attension should i pay to the equipment in the aircraft..."

If they want to stay instrument-current, then proper instrumentation might be important, whether that's in a "boring escort" or not...

What about multi-currency and hours?

How much use is a fATPL with hardly any instrument time or multi time? (except for training and test)

[LowNSlow]

DkG I assume that as you are talking about a timespan of only one year that hours building is the name of the game.
If you have a hangar available, a Jodel D120 (a taildragger but a relatively benign taildragger) will give fast, economical touring but being wood needs to live indoors. I have seen well equipped Jodels and maintaining personal IMC currency with a safety pilot shouldn't be a problem. As a PFA type I shouldn't imagine that you'd be allowed to book is as "real" IMC though.

Still, I have seen chaps building hours on FRED's (65mph parasol open cockpit taildragger), Zenair 700's (75mph 2 seater kitplane) as well as those who throw large amounts of cash at their flying club cos they feel the hours have to be done in a "proper" aeroplane. Horses for courses I would assume but seeing as the required end result is a pile of hours in the logbook, does it really matter which fixed gear, fixed pitch prop single you do the hours on? On the basis that an IR will be part of the course does it matter that the vast majority of hours will be in VMC?

Ultimately, a year on a PFA type with everybody getting 150-200 hours out of it has to be the cheapest way to go. As they get nearer the IR side of things, then get a more fully equipped C150 with the proceeds of the sale of the PFA type.

Just for a laugh, the 4 bods could get 4 FREDS for a total of 12k and then amaze everybody by arriving in formation :D :D :D

[poetpilot]

On the sponsorship front, I don't think you'll find many opportunities at this time.

I've never heard of sponsorship being given for a group to be set up for hours gaining (doesn't mean it hasn't happened, I've just never heard of it myself).

There are a few Aeroncas, Condors, Jodels etc available for under £15,000 (check out the PFA mag). Yes, they're tailwheel. They'll need to be hangared. But they are the closest thing to budget flying bar microlights & single seat PFA types. They are much more fun to fly than Cessnas and arguably will instill better handling and co-ordination skills over the period of ownership.

You can gain (in experience terms as well) by doing some of your own maintenance (supervised by PFA inspectors). If these guys (n gals) are keen to get into aviation professionally, then they should also be keen to build experience in knowing what makes an aircraft tick and how to keep it ticking - not just leaving everything to the club and its engineers.

Also, bear in mind that this group will probably be fluid - in terms of people moving on to other types and groups as they gain knowledge and experience, and see other opportunities popping up. Be prepared for turnover of members.