Grass runway ! not in a twin !

[A and C]

It would seem that a growing number of people who own twins are refusing to let them take off or land on grass runways I have to ask if this is a realistic precaution or a new type of aviation snobbery.

At a local airfield I have seen twins landing on the hard surface with the crosswind at its limits rather than land into wind , it would seem that it is thought preferable to land faster and impose maxamum permited side loads on the landing gear rather than land about 15 or so KT slower and not impose any side load on the landing gear.

I could see the reluctance to land on very rough grass runways for reasons of prop clearance but I can see few other reasons for not using the grass in a twin.

[Skaz]

Snobbery or ignorance....choose your pick.
I have flown Pa34,31, Bn2,C310,401,402b/c from tarmac, gravel, dirt, sand, grass.....

a crosswind landing on tar is much more stress on the u/c, no matter how good your technique, than one on a softer surface like dirt or grass.

In my youth I made an atrocious crosswind (read sideways :eek: ) landing on tar in a Pa28...damn near took the tyres of the rims ... just kicked rudder half a second too late :}

the same landing on gravel, or sand or grass would have been much less stress on the gear.

We do medevac ops with C402C & 401 (if needed) and c208 into all kinds of fields in africa....some tar, some gravel/dirt farmstrips, some that look like motox tracks! even do a fair amount of road landings.....there the a/c gets punished.....


but landing on good grass strips....what a breeze:cool:

[2Donkeys]

Agree with you, and there are some superb strips you can take a twin into as well. Here is one that a friend in ATC took of Flying Dutch and me, departing from Old Warden last year.

http://www.stevelevien.com/ow1805/GBMLM3.jpg

(His site is well worth a visit too)

[rustle]

Skaz

Snobbery or ignorance....choose your pick

Pretty 'ken stupid comment me thinks :rolleyes:

There are a myriad reasons why people don't want to take their aircraft onto grass if it can be avoided - none-the-least of which may be group/syndicate or club rules.

To suggest its "Snobbery or ignorance" shows ignorance beyond the call of duty...

Edit: 2D - that's not your usual mount... How many grass strips does that see? ;) ;)

[FlyingForFun]

Personally, I prefer not to take my (single-engined) aircraft onto grass if possible, especially when it's muddy. That's because I'm a lazy sod, and I prefer not to have to clean it afterwards though! ;)

(Bit difficult, since it's based at a grass airfield...:rolleyes: )

[Hersham Boy]

I've seen a Citation come in and go out of the grass strip at EGKR... just after it had been mowed and there was lose grass all over it.

It looked like it had been turfed itself after the very neat landing and the two-man crew seemed perfectly happy (not that they were the owners!)

I don't fly twins but I reckon my arrivals with planet earth are much smoother on grass than on tarmac. More forgiving, I reckon.

Hersh

[Keef]

"All depends" is the answer. I take the honourable G-UTSY into most places (grass included) - but NOT muddy grass. Having once had the "two greens" experience, caused by a large divot stuck on the microswitch, I never want that excitement again.

Agree that grass is more forgiving than tarmac, but it takes a tad longer to stop sometimes, too.

[2Donkeys]

Rustle wrote:

Edit: 2D - that's not your usual mount... How many grass strips does that see?

You need to get out more:D That was my usual mount for many years, until very recently in fact.

As you probably suspect my current usual mount is rather too heavy for sodden grass during the winter months, and the take-off roll is long enough before factoring for grass. That alone rules out many of the more obvious strips.

This said, mud in the wheelwells, clogged microswitches, poor braking action, multi-engine ban at some grass strips (Barton) and a myriad reasons also come into play somewhere.

If you can satisfy yourself on those counts, then give it a go. It certainly won't hurt! :D

[Mike Cross]

They got a DC3 into Popham last year no probs, but then he's a proper twin with plenty of prop clearance.

Mike

[2Donkeys]

On the assumption that a DC-3 is not Perf A, I wonder what the accelerate stop distance is?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Mind you, do you remember prior to last year's Popham fly-in the number of people seriously worried about landing Cessna and Piper single's on grass. I think it's just fear of the unknown from people used to tarmac and nothing else.

G

[bluskis]

It depends on

1. If it is your own airplane, or hired or the bosses.

2. The actual state of the grass runway. I have come across some beautiful bowling green runways which are a pleasure.

3 Whether you like the clattering and banging usually associated with grass runways.

4. Not always, but usually grass runways are on fields too short for many twins, and if long enough are still not too good in wet weather.

[FlyingForFun]

A couple of years ago I got caught out by the weather and diverted to Cranfield in a Super Cub. Had to leave the aircraft there for a few nights, didn't have any chocks or tie-downs with me (my mistake), and no one at Cranfield had any chocks (in fact, no one could believe that anyone would fly an aircraft without a parking brake). The only tie-downs were on the grass parking area, which was closed for the winter.

Spoke to the airfield director, who gave me permission to park and tie down on the grass, but he was very very worried about the state of the grass - he insisted that I walk the route first to check I was happy with it. Was I happy with it? Well, the parking area was in far better condition than the runway I'd taken off from a few hours earlier! :rolleyes:

Genghis, I think you're right - it's just an illogical fear of the unknown in many cases.

FFF
--------------

[rustle]

I can't help but think the "ignorance and snobbery" comment was 180degrees misplaced...

I think it's just fear of the unknown from people used to tarmac and nothing else.

What scientific/statistical/empirical evidence leads one to this conclusion?

In our syndicate all of us have flown singles to/from grass strips (some airfields in better condition than others) but have chosen not to take our twin into grass aerodromes.

To keep this in perspective, I'd take someone else's twin into a grass airfield quite happily (if their club rules allowed such things), but not my own.

Exactly the same rationale as being more than happy to do EFATO practice in a hired aircraft, but not in mine, thanks.

[pulse1]

I landed shortly after the DC3 for my first time on that particular runway (03) over the trees, with a gusty wind. Although I didn't do too badly my admiration for Andy Dixon's piloting skills in the DC were greatly increased.

[Tim_CPL]

There is one very good reason for thinking long and hard about grass departures and arrivals. A number of types, such as the Seneca, have very limited prop clearance, and bouncing along on the turf can have serious consequences to ones health, as a good friend of mine found out, to his grave cost, in the Newmarket crash in June 2000. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/feb01/gbmnt.htm. Although not the complete reason for the accident (as usual it was a combination of unfortunate events) the low clearance of the props was a factor.

[Skaz]

snobbery re the topic starter's post,some folks like you perhaps ruslte would rather be seen dead than driving the Rolls to the cafe, or landing on a grass strip, of all things...tuttut...

ignorance re the posts of Genghis the Engineer and FlyingForFun: obviously some people dont know that flying into a nice smooth, mowed, hard grass strip is absolutely fine for your precious a/c, experience and general knowledge plays a role here

landing on one in the rain, or shortly after, can be very messy and dangerous too, since with all the mud you can slip and slide all over, even into the ditch, where rustle lives


Landing on a sand runway is ok, just use your common sense and lift the nosewheel asap and let the a/c fly off....dirt and gravel ok too, before you jumo in, wet the ground in front of the props to keep the little vortices down, also remove little stones etc that might nick the prop......

the topic starter did not specify the ownership of the a/c , maybe one should be a little more carefull citing 'ken stupidity in replying to post on this website , duffle , waffle or ruffle whatever your name is
:cool:

[TheKentishFledgling]

2Donks.....

Isn't there some story about your current mount and some grass at a certain south coast airfield.........?

tKF

[2Donkeys]

There is, and "sink" is what 3.5 tonnes does in soft grass. :D

[rustle]

Spaz

"...the topic starter did not specify the ownership of the a/c..."

A and C, topic starter, my bolding for your convenience:

"It would seem that a growing number of people who own twins are refusing to let them take off or land on grass runways..."

I rest my case. :rolleyes:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just expanding the fear of the unknown point slightly, I've known more than one microlight pilot worried about landing on tarmac.

Come to think of it, given my Raven has no ground brakes, I'm one of them on occasion. Landing (or taxiing) downhill on tarmac can be thoroughly exciting in a way that grass isn't.

At the end of the day, we're all comfortable with what we're used to.

Incidentally I once did a precautionary landing into a long, slightly uphill, whitish field next to a chalk quarry. From the air I thought the white colouring would be chalk through very thin grass. I now know that landing on semi-refined sewage is very slippery, and it takes a very long time to clean the aircraft afterwards.

G

[FNG]

Hello Skaz, haven't seen you in here much. If all of your posts are like that one, perhaps that is a good thing. Genghis and FFF both know a lot about operating on grass and other surfaces. Even if I didn't already know this, nothing in their contributions to this thread suggest otherwise.

[Skaz]

holy beejeezus you bunch are touchy.....

Spaz...that was a good one, touche;)

FNG you misunderstood my post. I did not mean those two are ignorant or somesuch....perhaps I should rephrase.They mentioned the fear of the unknown, that is what I'm referring to with ignorance, now knowing or not wanting to know.

rustle...okay, so I missed that bit, chill out

[vintage ATCO]

tKF

I think your Oban place is in jepardy :}

[2Donkeys]

We should break his other leg ;)

[TheKentishFledgling]

I think your Oban place is in jepardy

I'll be giving it up if this knee doesn't get better :*

tKF

[rustle]

Skaz

"...okay, so I missed that bit, chill out"

I'm chilled - always good when people admit their mistakes, we're all friends in here... :)

mrcross

"...but then he's a proper twin with plenty of prop clearance"

Oi! Its a long walk home from Duxford don't forget ;) :p

[englishal]

If I want to fly from A to B and B is grass then I'll land there. I am quite capable of making equally bad landings on grass and tarmac :D

[formationfoto]

Indeed it may be ignorance from some aircraft hire operations who don't understand grass runways. Might also be experience of pilots hiring then going into grass and not taking sufficient care of the aircraft.

Grass can pose greater difficulty with low prop clearance singles and twins. Actually it is not the grass but the smoothness or otherwise of the surface and many grass strips can be quite bumpy compared to tarmac.

All the same I have flown both Seneca and Cessna310 in and out of grass strips and as they were aircraft I had some equity in did so with care and lack of problem.

A friend of mine landed at a Midlands airfield on a hard surface in a Mooney but then had to taxi on grass and suffered prop strike and an engine rebuild.

Owners have every right to apply whatever conditions they wish when hiring out but those pilots with sufficient experience should try to persuade them of their error if they are being too strict.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

My, My, My:

If I had the choice of a good smooth well cared for grass strip or any paved strip I would land and take off from the grass strip.

With any airplane from the J3 Cub to a B747. ( providing the strip would support the weight of the 747. ):D

Cat Driver:

[Thrifty van Rental]

You can't beat grass. Ooh the fun we have washing the mud off the tailplane, wing undersides, wheel wells, spats, etc etc :D

Nothing to do with snobbery. Everything to do with being lazy and wanting to go straight home to Mrs van Rental once I have landed and picked the flies out of my teeth.


True pilots don't need to land into wind all the time, and enjoy the challenge of touching down on a nice bit of tarmac with the wheels correctly aligned. :cool:

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi Rustle,

I read:

To keep this in perspective, I'd take someone else's twin into a grass airfield quite happily (if their club rules allowed such things), but not my own.

I can appreciate that you dont want to unduly fly assymmetric with your own mount, but shirley it would not be a good idea to some EFATO training in the very machine that you are most likely to suffer one.

FD

PS: I will remember never to let you borrow any of my toys!

[rustle]

FD

I think you quoted the wrong bit ;)

Me being the only contributor to this thread who isn't inclined to take his own twin into grass airfields, I'd hate to be the only one with turbocharged engines who doesn't want to practice EFATO in it as well - so I'll say nowt and see if anyone else comments... :p

[Thrifty van Rental]

With you all the way rustle

Don't be put off by the macho men :D

Shutting down turbo-charged piston engines in flight is strictly for other people's aircraft. I always borrow one when its time for my renewal.

If you have long and delicate propellers, its your prorogative to stick to tarmac runways.

Each to their own.

[pittss2b]

The bottom line is the condition of the surface. Grass, gravel, dirt, are all no problem if the surface are in good, dry shape. I'll try to get some pictures up of Navajos on grass and ice runways.


Adam
Link removed. Check your PMs please Adam.

[A and C]

If your destination airfield has two runways one grass and one hard and provided that the grass is in good condition , if the wind is gusting up to the limits across the hard runway and more or less along the grass what do you do ?.

[rustle]

Obviously a hypothetical scenario unless all my planning skills have deserted me or I have an airborne problem...

But if I had to land, I would land on the grass in that situation no question - same as I'd bust CAS if I had a problem.

But I wouldn't plan on landing on grass in it, any more than planning to bust CAS.

Different rules, different regulators (one statutory, one syndicate), same logic :)

[sudden Winds]

landing is not a problem....taking off might be.

-acceleration is bad. A normal takeoff technique must be used because soft field technique in a twin puts the plane in the air before Vmca.
more time of nosewheel on the ground because of that.
more stress on the mainwheels because they hold the weight of engines while encountering bumps, jolts, all that.
partial power on brakes is discouraged (debris can hit the prop)
and besides...twins are normally heavier than singles...they use more runway, they sink deeper into the grass, etc etc etc.

it´s not impossible..it´s just not the best situation for a piston twin, even tho most are perfectly capable of doing it.

Just an opinion.

SW
www.patagonianskies.com.ar

[Davidt]

Isnt the issue not twin-v-grass but rather retratable-v-grass?

As most twins are retracts the appearance is that twins avoid grass, I am unwilling to risk my retractable single on soggy muddy bumpy grass.As much for the wear and tear on the u/c as anything, I shudder to think of the cost of an overhaul on the gear.So for me its summer time only and then only after I,ve checked by phone on the state of play, something i would never have done with fixed gear.

I dont think my caution is either ignorant or snobbish.

[andrewc]

My mate flew a 172 into Fenland recently...they told
him that the field wasn't too bad - just a little damp.

He landed in a huge water splash and once he slowed
down promptly bogged in and had to be pulled out by
land-rover.

When he got the crate back home, the chief engineer
refused to service it because 'he'd never seen a plane
so dirty' and the plane had to be cleaned off with
a jetwash.

-- Andrew

[Tinstaafl]

Can't see the problem. Grass, dirt, beach, grass on sand, tar, concrete, improved paddock, ice, snow etc etc

I've taken most things I've flown into some combination of the above.

Poorly maintained concrete or tar can be rougher than grass, dirt or paddock.

Sand on grass can be softer than muddy grass etc etc


If the surface is soft, use a soft field technique. If it's slippery use the slowest approach most into wind etc.

If it's rough hold the nosewheel off as long as possible then stop. Inspect the rest of the taxi distance before taxiing again. Ditto the take-off surface.

[rustle]

A and C I assume that you agree with my answer then?

FD no takers for your assymetric question either ;)

[A and C]

It is not for me to tell you how to fly your aircraft but it seems that you are happy to restrict the number of airfields you can use.

Most people here seem to say that maintenance costs are the reason for not using grass runways , but how meny of you have had to replace the main bearings on the landing gear that take the for and aft loads ?.

I would lay odds that most of the maintenance costs go on the side strut bearings ( the ones that take the most load in a cross wind landing ).

Comments please.