ATPL Manuals

[spils]

one day when i have saved up enough cash, my plan is to get my CPL. i have heard from many on this site that the best way to do this is to go via the ATPL exam route to keep my options open. therefore, how often are the ATPL manuals updated??
i have just been flicking through a well known pilot shop magazine and on the back page is listed the complete set of 15 for around £600. if i were to invest in these, how long would they be valid for and what are the options in getting updates (if any)??
i obviously dont want to spend that much right now and then not start using them in anger for another couple of years when they would be outdated.

[oxford blue]

How often the manuals are updated varies from producer to producer, so this question is very specific to the publisher. I presume from your description that you are referring to the Oxford Jeppesen manuals. I can answer this because I happen to be an Oxford instructor.

New editions are produced as and when there are sufficient changes to justify it - which is a bit arbitrary, but should work out at about once a year. The Oxford Jeppesen manuals are now Edition 2, published fairly recently. No decision has been made on a publication date for Edition 3, but I would expect it to be in about 10 -12 months.

However, essential updates, especially any errors noted, are available on Oxford's website.

[FlyingForFun]

Spils,

Don't bother. When you're ready, you'll have to sign up for an "approved course", and you'll get a set of notes when you sign up. There's no point in getting the notes from a pilots shop, you'll just end up with two copies of them. If mony's tight, you can find better things to spend it on.

FFF
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[BroomstickPilot]

Spils,

Do remember that you can't take the ATPL course and then just turn up and sit the CPL exams.

If you want to do an ATPL course and then do CPL exams, you will have to obtain permission from the CAA; and you will need to have a good reason. Most ATPL schools are not certified to do the CPL.

I did the ATPL course (because I wanted to study full time) and am doing CPL exams (with CAA permission), but this has posed a problem because when I came to revise, it proved very difficult to separate the ATPL things in my manuals that I don't need to revise for CPL from the things I do need.

If you are going to do CPL by distance study, I suggest you take any opportunity you can to examine the study material produced by different teaching establishments. One thing you will notice is that most if not all of them produce manuals with no subject index at the back. This can be an absolute pain when you come to do feedback papers and need to check back on the answers you got wrong.

Best regards,

Broomstick

[spils]

BroomstickPilot,

i think i am getting confused now between the different routes that appear to be available in getting to CPL standard.
if for example i do not want to get to fATPL standard, and just get a CPL then is it just as straightforward (used in the loosest of senses!!) as doing the CPL course and exams then??

[FlyingForFun]

Spils,

Basically, yes - as far as ground-school is concerned, you do an approved CPL course, then sit the exams.

There are two areas of confusion. First of all, there are only a very small number of schools who offer the course. This is because it isn't in very high demand, because most people prefer to do the ATPL exams.

The second point is that in most cases, many people (including me) would recommend doing an ATPL course anyway. The ATPL course entitles you start the flight training for both the CPL and the IR. You don't have to do the IR of course, but you have 3 years in which to do it if you change your mind and decide it might be useful after all. On the other hand, if you do the CPL exams, you can not start an IR course without doing the IR exams - and there's a lot of overlap between the two, and so potential for lots of wasted time, effort and money. So if there's even the vaguest chance that you might want in Instrument Rating, then do the ATPL exams instead.

FFF
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[spils]

that is what i heard previously and my original reasoning. therefore, is the statement that was made earlier valid in this respect??

<quote>"If you want to do an ATPL course and then do CPL exams, you will have to obtain permission from the CAA; and you will need to have a good reason. Most ATPL schools are not certified to do the CPL."<unquote>

[expedite_climb]

The fact that an approved ATPL course has been taken is irrelevant if only the cpls are passed. Broomstick only did it that way as he wanted full time study and noone offers full time cpl study these days.

[BroomstickPilot]

Spils,

I'm sorry if my post was confusing. However, other contributers seem to have clarified somewhat for me. There is, however, another point I would make.

Irrespective of whether you are taking CPL or ATPL, you have to take all your exams within 18 months, with no more than six sittings, and no more than four attempts at each subject and the pass mark in every case is 75%. The DIFFERENCE is that with ATPL you have 14 exams to pass, WITH CPL YOU ONLY NEED TO PASS NINE.

I know of more than one person who has given up purely because they could not get through the ATPL ground-school exams. So if you don't need an IR, why make your task more difficult than need be?

If later you decide you want an IR, then you have 5 more exams to take. You have another 18 months to get them, pass mark is 75%, you have four attempts at each subject, and SIX MORE SITTINGS. This spreads the load somewhat don't you think?

Very best regards,

BroomstickPilot

[Send Clowns]

That is wrong Broomstick, I'm afraid to say.

If at a later date you wish to add an IR to your CPL you will need to sit 9 exams, even including human performance for which CPL and IR has the same syllabus and paper. For example my subject, General Nav, would be sat at CPL and IR seperately with slightly different syllabus.

[BroomstickPilot]

Send Clowns,

I've just checked my copy of 'LASORS'. You are right - I was wrong - but then so are you! I have just counted 7 written exams for the IR, (not 9).

Nevertheless, my main point still holds. With the CPL you only have to get through 9 subjects in your six sittings for CPL instead of the 14 required for ATPL; and you get another six sittings if you later decide to take the SEVEN papers required for the IR. Thus, if you do not have an actual need for an IR, why take one?

Very best regards,

BroomstickPilot

[spils]

BroomstickPilot,

thanks for clearing that up - i am back with you now!!

so it would seem that the ATPL route would be the most efficient for gaining an IR then. only thing is - once the IR has been completed, what are currency and validity requirements for maintaining it??

[BroomstickPilot]

Spils,

Yes, but let us be just a little bit more specific. What needs to be understood is that the fATPL is really intended for people who are intent upon a lifetime career flying multi-pilot, public transport category aircraft. From your post I have the impression that is not what you have in mind.

I suspect most of the people who have advocated the fATPL route will belong to that category, and these people understandably see little point in taking CPL. The CPL limits you to right-hand-seat only on multi-pilot public transport aircraft, PIC only on single pilot aircraft, and 'aerial work', such as being an instructor (with an additional FI rating).

if you obtain an fATPL you will need to fly multi-pilot aeroplanes in order to be able to unfreeze your ATPL. This really means getting an airline job at a time that airline jobs are as scarce as hens' teeth. Otherwise, your fATPL will expire and you will end up with a plain old CPL+ME+IR, which you could have obtained in easier academic and financial stages. It also means getting through all 14 ATPL exams within six sittings.

It's a question of what your flying ambitions are, but all I say is if you don't intend to be an airline jet jockey then there is no point in taking on needlessly difficult and expensive committments that will yield no additional benefit to you bearing in mind your particular aspirations.

Very best regards,

Broomstick

[FlyingForFun]

Broomstick,Otherwise, your fATPL will expireThis is not true. (If it were, I'd agree totally with your last post.) As long as you get an IR within 3 years of the exams, and then don't let the IR lapse by more than 7 years, the ATPL exams will be valid indefinitely.

FFF
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[BroomstickPilot]

FFF,

Thank you for correcting that point.

Much obliged.

Broomstick.

[aidanl]

Folks,

I too like Spils am musing over the ATPL vs CPL alternative. My ambitions lie down the flight instructing route - fATPL is probably overkill - too long in the tooth to head to jets and I like to get home everynight!

Already PPL + Night + IMC, so CPL + FI would be sufficient to get the ball rolling without parting with humongous amounts of cash. I would love to do the IR 'some day', if only for the personal pleasure of being able to get home from European trips but can't really justify the extra outlay.

My first choice is still the full ATPL exams.

Reasons are:

1) I may not need the IR components but every bit of info helps. (I really shouldn't have ambitions to teach others )
2) I'm happy to push myself down the full route. Doing the ATPL now keeps the options for IR open if my circumstances change over the next 4-5 years. I don't mind the extra commitment and the difference in costs are minimal.
3) Small point but it keeps the choice of ground schools open.

Spils - don't forget that the 3 years starts ticking when you pass your final exam - if you're only starting to think about it, that could be a long time away.

Bottom line - anyone thinking about this - think as far ahead as possible

[spils]

aidanl,

that is pretty much what i had concluded - and for mainly the same reasons.
i think that the ATPL's will be the way i go so i can keep my options open, and consider getting an IR in the future if my circumstances allows it.
just on another note, i'm off to check out a couple of local schools over the next few weeks. i dont plan on signing up to anything just yet, as i would like to get more hours and become a little more confident in my own flying abilities first, but just to get a feel for the pain and torment i am likely to subscribe to over the next few years!! :-)