How is the job market?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just trying to get a feel for the state of the UK market at the moment.

We are approaching the period in which adverts and hiring starts for the Spring/Summer season. I haven't seen much activity and from my remaining contacts in the business the mood is downbeat.

Whats your feeling/view?

With the price of fuel, the slowing house market and the general economic malaise I imagine things are going to be grim this year...

WWW

[excrab]

WWW,

That seems to be a fairly accurate assesment.

PPL training is quiet, a CFI I spoke to recently says that new starters are down, and the NPPL doesn't seem to be making much impression yet. Not helped, as you say, by the slow down in the housing market, looming increase in NI, crash of the stock market and the Blair and Bush double act.

On the other hand a highly regarded FIC instructor I recently spoke to reports that he is fully booked with FIC and Commercial training and testing.

So the sum appears to be easy - lots of people training to be instructors, and PPL schools (who potentially employ them) with few customers = ?

However a slight silver lining - I have been unable to take any work away from full time instructors recently as I have been to busy to have enough days off, and the airline I work for has just hired 10 direct entry turbo-prop F/Os, at least one of whom was from an integrated course with 250ish hours. So as long as the Middle East doesn't blow up, or does and then subsides rapidly maybe things will improve...

[mad_jock]

We are ticking over just now.

Seem to have lots of under 17year old pilots going on to commercial later.

Lots of ex3's, seems to be the in thing as gifts and we are getting a reasonable pick up for NPPL and PPL in the mature gentleman kids left home group.

The group which is very lacking is the mid week condensed course types. But April seems to have bookings for this group.

What we are getting alot of is emails from some weird and wonderful countries. I presume this is a factor of America being so hard to train in these days. A reply with the costs of training in the UK usually works.

Unless i get another job I don't think we will need another instructor this year.

As a note my boss has noticed a drop in folk phoning asking if jobs are going. He said he was getting a bit concerned that once things pick up again there arn't going to be many suitable instructors about.

MJ

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

So its not black and white then.

I note this months BALPA employment news actually contained quite a few companies looking to hire in the airline market...

WWW

[CPilotUK]

Hi,

I know this forum is for Instructors, but after reading WWW's post, I thought it appropriate to post this:

Yesterday, while taxing to the runway holding point, my Instructor told me that my previous Instructor, who taught me between July and September of last year, just got a job as a Boeing 737 First Officer.

Now, I know that things are pretty bleak at the moment, but I guess it's like anything else in life: If you block out the negativity, and apply yourself, then you will be duly rewarded.

[aces low]

Instructor lifestyle and opportunities would be greatly enhanced by airline pilots giving up 'part-time instruction' . In return we promise not to steal their jobs when they all go on strike for being worked too hard. Seems like a fair deal to me. Plus if all the jaded 2000+ instructors just let it go (see current wannabes thread) then there would be more for us too.

[excrab]

Aces Low,

What a shame you were unable to make any constructive comment on the topic of the thread. However, as you have hijacked it I will rise to the bait.

I have held a flying instructor rating for 18 years. For 5 of those years I have also been an Airline pilot, and to be honest it is the training side of my job which I find the most interesting rather than the A to B bit. I still think of myself as an instructor first and a pilot second.

That being the case why should I stop doing something which I enjoy - and can only do on a very limited basis due to the FTL etc - just because you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about it.

To put this into perspective, in the last seven months I have done 3 1/2 hours instructing - all aerobatics as none of the full time instructors at the club I fly from has an aerobatic instructor rating. In the same period I have hired the same aerobatic aircraft ( at the full rate ) for 2 hours in order to practise myself - thus actually helping to pay the salaries of the full time instructors who work there.

I look forward to hearing how you think that my stopping instructing will improve your lifestyle and opportunities.

Incidentally - having just looked through some of your previous posts - if you wouldn't want to steal my job why did you sit ATPL writtens and obtain an IR, when a CPL and IMC rating is all you needed to become an instructor?

[Oktas8]

The Flying Instructors forum seems to be mostly a UK thing, but for what it's worth my employer can't get enough experienced (500+ instructional hours) instructors at the moment.

So if anyone feels the urge to live in the South Pacific, just let me know... :) You can live on the salary too, which is a bonus. :) :) :)

O8

[aces low]

Excrab...hooked!. But seriously there is a problem with jaded intructors who are just hanging around cos they cannot get a RHS. They have their 2000 hours, will go no further as instructors but wish to remain current...and occupy full time posts.

I have got no problem with part timers (whether they be airline pilots or examiners etc) as they usually bring something new to the party. Lets just ask ourselves whether we instruct through habit or love. Some do not get the opportunity to ask this question as they are still trying to get their first job...only to be told that most of the PPL training is being done by part-timers!

I am making a serious point.

By the way, if you had read my previous posts, you would know that I am 42 and unlikely to get a career flying for the airlines. The opportunities open to me are then limited to career instruction at a 509 school or possibly air taxi. In each of these cases, I think you will find an IR and CPL quite helpful in getting a job.

[excrab]

Aces Low,

Firstly - my apologies, I read some but not all of your posts and missed the age bit. If the upturn we are seeing at the moment in the airline business continues (Unlikely admittedly with the Middle East as it is), then 42 may not be to old if you are happy to fly for one of the remaining turboprop operators.

Like yourself I only obtained a CPL/IR (after instructing for 8 years on PPL then BCPL with Grandfather rights) in order to open up commercial instructing and air taxi opportunities. I got my first non-instructing job when I was 37 and to be honest now I totally regret moving on to an airline. However it would be very difficult to explain to the wife and kids that I intend to take a substantial pay cut because it would be more interesting to fly a PA31 again.

As far as the jaded instructors bit goes - unfortunately 18 years ago when I started it was the same, most people instructed on a PPL, got their CPL/IR at 700 hours and then just stayed where they were until an airline job came along although they had no interest in instructing. I'm afraid that as long as instructing is a route to build hours that will always be the case. The answer is staring us in the face but when I last suggested it on another thread it was rejected.

Best of luck whatever happens

Excrab.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well I am an ex-instructor turned airline pilot and I still do some ad hoc insruction. I suppose it does deprive an instructor of some work.

WWW

[expedite_climb]

WWW - but does it ?

I am in the similar postion as you, I started in the airlines 2 1/2 yrs ago after 4 yrs instructing and now am getting back into it pt for enjoyment.

The club that took me on had a huge stack of CV's from low time FI's, and wasnt actively recruiting. It was only my past experience that made them offer me a few days a month.

[foxmoth]

Aces,
I would be very surprised if ANYONE instructs through "habit", The effort of just keeping the rating going means you are either doing it because you need to, or because you enjoy it. Rather than see the part timers go, who instruct because they enjoy it, I would much rather those who are only there for the hours get out, if you do not have the students interest at heart, how good is the instructing going to be? ( note I said JUST there for the hours, there are those that are going for hours, but still enjoy the instructing - and they will probably be the airline pilots of the future who still instruct part time!)

[aces low]

Thanks for the comments one and all. If only there was a way to be an instructor and make a living. Ah yes ....be a helicopter instructor getting £50 per hour. I started out on the self-improver route 5 years ago...determined to be a professional pilot. I now love instructing when I can get work, and could quite happily work my way up the career instructor ladder...if there were the jobs and pay at the end to justify the huge investment I have made. Somehow I need to make a living and be a pilot. The options are few...

[Mister Geezer]

As a new FI I can only comment on how busy I have been. Plenty of people wanting to fly and plenty of hours in the logbook... however I am not in it just for the hours! I really enjoy instruction and it is encouraging to see people wanting to fly and get their PPL! Hopefully the summer will be even better!

[covec]

aces low

Why is 42 too old? Turboprop Direct Entry FO?

Good Luck!

[aardvark keeper]

Aces High, less of the jaded 2000+ on the FI's!

With 2250 hrs-ATPL-& 4 years instructing as a full timer, why the hell should I hang up my headset so a part timer or new wannabe can move in?

Yes I am waiting for an FO job, but it by no way - means I do a bad job or offer a poor service with no enthusiasm. The hours may not be important but the ability to earn a living is.

You may find plenty of part time positions available, just a severe lack of new FI's willing to take up a freelance part time position with the knowledge of a full time place coming available, because they feel they will be missing out on the hours a full timer would get else where. These are the guys who are doing it for the hours and not providing the service, taking lessons off in absolute crap because it is another hour in the book.

We have a part timer, flys as much as a full timer as 'he' requires and dosent want to go full time. He can gladly have my full time position when I move on.

As regards airline guys, we welcome these through lack of the above part time FI's. They make themselves available on 'a what's left, if anything / short notice / even just a couple of days a month' basis and if they were previous FI's, I think they have earned the right!!!

[flying jocks]

I am not an airline pilot myself, but a full time instructor. I have no hangups with one or two part time experienced instructors /airline pilots coming to a flying club on an ad-hoc basis keeping their "hand-in" on hands on flying. After all, many customers come in with a view to joining an airline as do instructors and the airline pilots are in a perfect position to give valuable advice aswell as inside information as to recruitment plans. Next time anybody complains about senior instructors taking jobs, think about what drives a successful club. It is not just the instruction, it is the experience and the personalities that make it!:hmm:

[Mister Geezer]

Remember it is the part time guys who are with the airlines that might pull the strings to get you an interview!