Recruitment at GO, Channel Express + BMI

[BillyFish2]

I'm sure many of you surfin' wannabees will have read these already, but those of you who haven't will find details of talks given on current GO, Channel Express and BMI recruitment at:
www.oxfordaviation.net/services/news/news.htm (http://www.oxfordaviation.net/services/news/news.htm)

Talks are all dated October - November 2001. Not all doom and gloom I can assure you.

[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: BillyFish2 ]

[bow5]

Interesting that they all seemed to mention the ATP academy as somewhere they get pilots from!!

[GonvilleBromhead]

Interesting that Capt. Bannister of GO said that instructing on anything other than complex turbo-props doesn't really help when it comes to applying.

With that in mind, as I've always intended to instruct for a couple of years, makes one wonder just how beneficial it is (from an employment point of view, the skills you learn and practice are obviously invaluable).

I take it that it is the case then, that ex-instructors (1000+ hours) generally apply to the regionals (mainly T/P fleets) in the vast majority of cases and from the regionals to the likes of Go etc.

Is that the case ? WWW and anyone else, comments welcome.

cheers,

GB.

[excrewingbod]

Gronville,

Most management pilots in the airline I work for, have all done some sort of light aircraft instructing, including the Flight Ops Director.

You will also find that quite a few training captains are also ex-instructors.

Although instructing may not help with an application, it certainly helps later in airline life.

Unfortunately you are more likely to get a job, if you can get a recommendation from a current pilot, within the airline you wish to apply to.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well my logbook reads:

PA28
PA28
PA28
B737
B737
B737...

Its not easy. Its better having 1,000hrs than 200hrs BUT don't expect airlines to be impressed with a load of VFR SEP hours. Twin time is King. If you can get yourself some twin instructing you should. Do make sure you log flight in IMC and push that on your CV.

WWW

[Leo45]

WWW,I do not agree on that one.The days when twin time was valued by the airlines have long gone...

2000hrs of single pilot operations on light twin aircraft throughout Europe and the UK has never got me an interview!!

Funny enough, most of the CAP509 self-sponsored students I trained when I was an instructor are now flying for turboprop or even jet operators.

May be in another life I should do an integrated course in order to improve my employment prospects.

However, I'll never regret my experience as an Air Taxi pilot.It's just another world... <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Luke SkyToddler]

Grrrrr!!!

You know it really takes a lot to get me to vent my spleen on this site ... but I am in a particularly intolerant mood this evening, and I just want to say that it p!sses me off when I read about these important people taking the trouble to spend their evenings doing seminars and cozy little one-to-one brown nosing sessions for wet-behind-the-ears students WHO HAVEN'T EVEN FINISHED TRAINING at bloody OATS ... when the rest of us who have worked, begged, pleaded and scraped our way to FATPLs, IRs, MCCs, 2 or 3 thousand hours, have crossed every T and dotted every I, are lucky to even get a rejection form letter from the same people <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

I have personally sent first solo a number of people who are now studying at the damn place (on my recommendation) and I know perfectly well they'll end up in jets long before I will, because of this sort of old-school-tie bollocks ... *sigh* what a crock <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Leo - feel free to disagree but I have spoken to many a person involved in recruitment and one hour twin time is worth fifty single engine. Your situation is reasonably unique.

Luke - not sure how to read that post. Are you having a go at the Wannabe seminars we have held at Gatwick?

Wannabeism is a wide church with everything from the 16yr old schoolboy asking the usual obvious questions through to temporarily unemployed experienced jet pilots looking for new work. With eveything in between.

Its hard not to get up one another noses but lets try hey?

WWW

[DeltaT]

....ummm no, I would say he's having a go at airline management.
And the more you hear about some of the decisions made by people running airlines, not just on recruitment, the more it comes as no surprise that some are going belly up, and the likes of Easyjet succeed.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Not having a go at the Wannabee seminars at all Weasley ... I think they're brilliant ... at least they're a level playing field in that they're open to everyone no matter where they've trained or what experience they've got already <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

It's just depressing to see that these guy's priorities appear to be spending their time making encouraging speeches to half trained PPL holders from a specific school who in many cases won't even be hitting the employment market for another year, when I know for a fact that these gentlemen are already snowed under with applications from people with ten or twenty times the experience level of a raw OATS graduate, and most of us can't even get a rejection letter or acknowledgment of our existence out of them <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

I'd just like some idea of how the rest of us can effectively compete with that kind of thing ... It's not as though I haven't passed first time on every written exam and flight test I've ever sat as well, in two separate countries, and I've got ten times the total experience level, yet it seems that in their eyes I'm still considered to be a 'higher training risk', just because I didn't attend OATS / can't afford the ATP academy? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Luke SkyToddler]

^^^ And, of course, BMI have been busy laying off a bunch of my pals this month already ... it seems to be just a touch insensitive to go making recruitment seminars at flying schools, when the ink has barely dried on the redundancy letters of 100-and-something of their existing crews <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ahh I see what you mean. Quite. Remember the whole FTO industry has a massive concern for ensuring new people walk in the door every month. The Peter Moxham "Be ready for the upturn" article in Flyer this month is far too upbeat for my liking... until you remember that Flyer is funded from the dozens of FTO adverts in its back pages.

Its not a nice industry to be at the bottom of.

WWW

[zep]

Luke,
I understand your feelings completely, we all love to fly most times, but you have entered one of the most unfair and insecure industries on the planet. The majority of pilots I know have been unemployed at least once during their career, often for long periods. Several have lost their lives during the course of their work, still we do the job, or seek to. The knowledge of these facts does not dampen our spirits because the feelings that we get from flying aircraft are the same now as they were during our first lessons.
What hurts most is the realization that comes to us all late in our training, or while searching for a job, that there are many more "injust examples in this industry than we thought.
The reality is that to enter this industry by the
quickest route, the most effective qualification is, and has been always, by the knowledge of somone within. Without this edge it takes longer because airlines change their employment criteria like their socks, targeting different groups on the basis of gender, hours, agegroup,country of origin and type of training/establishment.
The frustration comes that despite being a competent pilot, well aware of your own skills, you are being overlooked because you don`t fall into the category that is popular at the time.
I feel that I may be rambling a bit so in closing DO NOT give up, ignore the fortunes of others, they are not relavent to you ,keep plugging away and at some stage, normally when you least expect it, you`ll get a start.

Chin Up, RG.

[more of that later]

I second RG. The industry can be very flippant in it's approach to recruitment. Today's requirements may be just that, the goal posts move daily. eJ are alledgedly satisfying their requirement for Capts./SFO's to fill the command shortfall, and will recruit soon primarily for the RHS. With 2000+hrs though, I cannot understand why you don't get any look-ins with the regionals.

As for not being able to afford the ATP Academy - how much do you think it costs? It cost me absolutely nothing and gave me my first jet job.

[Flysundone]

I attended a Channex presentation earlier this year when everything in the freight market pointed to there being plenty of opportunities in the future. Can't quite understand why it is pitched at those still in training as there are more than enough newly qualified and experienced pilots to choose from. I have a frozen ATPL, current IR, MCC and 1000+ hours.

In fairness to Nick Hayter, he is always willing to talk to me when I ring him to see what the latest situation is but I for one am not sure what they are looking for.

In his presentation he says those over 40 (that includes me) need to convince him they are worth taking on. If bombarding Channex with CV's and phone calls doesn't work what will?

Furthermore, although considered a training risk, those of us over 40 getting our first flying job invariably stay around at lot longer than those who are younger. The odd extra training hour or two spent in the sim. is probably repaid many times over through those pilots sticking around and progressing to command.

[pjdj777]

more of that later

Things have changed at the ATP Academy, it's now £6k+ to do their assessment and AQC course.

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: pjdj777 ]</p>

[Ivan Ivanovich]

I understand the suggestion of imorality levelled at recuiters giving careers talks to students at OATS. However it happens in every industry. What about companies who give presentations to undegraduates of any College or University. There are unemployed engineers, teachers, accountants etc, but it doesn't stop recruiters trawling the educational establishments around the World for potential employees. Having said that, much of the time these companies are merely agreeing to requests from colleges to make encouraging talks to help motivate students.

Tough to take though if you are an instructor looking for an airline job.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Commander, I'm not having a dig at OATS students at all, I'm sure they're all nice chaps and as you rightly point out anyone would be mad not to take the chance to go to one of these seminars.

In fact I have personally recommended to more than a few people through this forum that they go and do their training there, because as you can see the connections that place has with the airlines are unbelievable and a good recommendation from them has always virtually guaranteed you a hot seat of some sort with minimum hours.

The only thing I find astonishing is that airline recruiters would still be considering employing fresh graduates from ANY flying school in the current climate. There are plenty of unemployed people out there right now from the likes of Flightline, BM and Gill, who have got thousands of hours of multi turbine and who would dearly love to have a quiet word in Brian Bannister's ear <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

I know when the jobs do start getting handed out again I'm going to be going up against a couple of my pals who have thousands of hours experience on things like Bae146 and ATR ... people who I know for a fact been hammering the likes of Go, BM and Channex with CVs for months and getting knocked back!! I fully don't expect to get an airline job until the market has soaked up those guys and they start looking at the hourbuilders, instructors, and 509ers again. But to see airlines running employment seminars in OATS right now, just defies all my rationality circuits <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[A and C]

When recruting forward looking companys may not want to take on guys with to much flight time as these guys get very frustrated when they find then selfs behind a guy just out of a training school when it comes to getting a command.

I would think that the worst position to be in at the moment is that of a first officer who is just coming up for command.

[4Screwaircrew]

Is it not possible that the likes of Nick Hayter et al have been invited to address students rather than going out to recruit people?

I think that A+C is right the frustration of somebody who in late August was only weeks away from the left seat and is now months possibly years away must be huge, although it is surely matched by those who had recently acheived a command and now find themselves back as First Officers. We must not forget those who had just completed type ratings and now find themselves out of work again.

All of the above dosnt mean that people will not commence training and the schools are working to attract all these people to train with them, if by inviting airlines to address the students they appear to be doing all they can to support students in the search for employment they may just persuade those undecided prospective students to train with them and not with the opposition.

It also possible that these talks were all arranged some time prior to the date they occured and it was thought best not to cancell them. Who knows for sure?

[birminghamgiraffe]

two comments:
Firstly never understood some airlines obsession with twin time:
what difference is there between a seneca and a cherokee normally ?not much.
the only twin time that counts is when an engine quits and then you need to be sharp to stay alive.

Luke, don't get frustrated I had ppl students that got jet jobs quicker than me.That's life: take alook at something like'pop idol' how many times has the better singer lost out ? now thats a cutthroat industry !!

Use your contacts, a recommendation from a mate in the relevant airline is worth so much, because he or she is putting their ass on the line. the old boys network still exists in some places: but then I am sure when you get your airline job you will recommend your friends and there is nothing wrong with that.

Don't get bitter it will ahppen sooner or later,
all the best.