Getting to Grips with the IMC [Archive]

FlyingForFun

11th Mar 2003, 14:38

ChiSau,

I'm at exactly the same stage as you - had 3 lessons so far. Although this isn't my first experience with IMC flying. Last year, I did a cross-channel checkout, as required by my club, and on the day of the checkout it was solid IMC all the way to the coast. Talked it over with the instructor, and we decided to go anyway. I did all the flying, she did all the navigation (until we reached the coast, when the clouds cleared). Logged about 2 hours of instrument time, and I was absolutely exhausted!

After my first IMC lesson, I was just as tired as I was on that cross-channel flight. Took the foggles off on downwind, attempted to fly the same circuit I fly all the time, but was too tired to figure out which way to turn!

I'm just starting to get the hang of it now, though. After my last lesson, I managed a pretty good landing despite the 15kt crosswind, and still had enough life left in me to go out for the night. So stick with it, and I'm sure it'll get easier. I think I have a little more total time than you, and that probably counts for something (not sure how much it counts for though!) - so there's definitely nothing wrong with you!

Good luck!

FFF
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Evo

11th Mar 2003, 15:35

Got my first IMC lesson coming up... :eek: ;)

Meanwhile, got my head in Thom's book 5 :confused: and Morse code :confused: :zzz: :ugh:

Chilli Monster

11th Mar 2003, 15:57

I did my IMC 6 months after my PPL, with an instructor who taught to IR standards. I can honestly say I'd never worked so hard in an aircraft up until then, and probably haven't since. (The twin rating was easy by comparison). There were times after an hour and a half under the hood that I was drenched in sweat and couldn't tell you what day it was.

but

Fear not :) You're not the first, you won't be the last. What you're going through is normal and one day it'll just drop straight into place and will make perfect sense (roundabout hour 9 I reckon ;))

KCDW

11th Mar 2003, 17:01

I too will be starting my IMC course next week. You guys are getting me worried!

Have read Thom fully once. About to start again. Also logged about 10 hours MFS time.

Last weekend, tried out some of this stuff in VMC - it ain't easy is it. Not sure if it's the avionics on my plane, but the blessed VOR just won't keep still. One second I'm on track, the next it's 6 degrees off, and my compass precesses like mad.

Let's keep in touch.

OBK!

11th Mar 2003, 17:42

I did my IMC about 2 weeks after getting the PPL through the post, after doing the whole lot in 5 days (the IMC I mean...no PPL, now that would be crazy!). But I found it quite easy going, but i must admit I have been flight sims since age 11! I really think you should try MSFS sometime. The handling may be different to the real thing but you can practice your panel scan to make it more efficient. A lot of the time people find they are concentrating too hard, or making it too difficult I.E - not trimming the aircraft out and letting it fly 'itself'. Concentrating too hard sometimes ahces your eyes, and also freezes your mind, and you end up looking at the same gauge for a long time and dozzing off! Then you end up not enjoying the instrument flying at all!

Along with the flying, there's the 'leens' you have to deal with (theoretically known as "Somatogyric and somatogravic" effects) ...basically becoming dis orientated. For example you may find yourself in an insidious left roll, only realising it when you look at your AI, which tells you you've got 15* of bank on the go, and then you correct it quickly, to which your cochlea reacts and now your balance tells you your in a turn to the right regardless of the fact your straight and level! Very frustrating during long periods of instrument flying...but trust the instruments! (I'm sure you've heard that one plenty of times!)

As far as the theory goes, you just need to know your priveleges and all about approach plates, and DH/MDA etc.

Like I say, get yourself on flight sim 2002 and do some practice, it's well worth it!

charlie-india-mike

11th Mar 2003, 19:38

ChiSau

You are not alone. I am finding it a bit hard going as well. 4.5hrs in and I have never had to work so hard on a flight before.

We will get there in the end though. Sometime it will click and become easier.

C-I-M

KitKatPacificuk

11th Mar 2003, 21:02

Even tho you guy's say you're tired, it does sound like you are enjoying yourself. I teach IMC and have a UK MEP/IR and the instrument flying you do I think is the best and most rewarding of all.
The advice I would give is to prepare yourself properly before hand. Find out what you are gonna do the day before. Get the planning of the route and approaches sorted in plenty of time so you can sit and look at them for a while and act them out in your head on the ground as if you were flying or on MSFS. Great bit of kit for procedures I agree!

Get your cockpit management sorted. Nightmare when there's bits of paper and pens flying everywhere when you can't find what your looking for. Have some organisation.

Say Everything out loud. It may sound stupid as you are saying it but you wont forget to do it if you say it!

Good Approach brief, say it out loud so you and your Instructor both know you know what you are gonna do after you are Radar Vectored or just passed over the beacon.

I'm not gonna tell you how to fly the thing coz I'm sure your instructors are doing a grand job, just a few pointers that made my life easier when I did my IMC and IR.

Enjoy, and Hey what a felling when that runway is infront of you at 500ft after not seeing outside for an hour! Wayhey!! It works!

Good Luck to you all

drauk

11th Mar 2003, 21:32

At first it does seem like a lot to handle, particularly when in real IMC, rather than just under the hood, bumping around, trying to persuade someone to give a radar service north east of London and dealing with the more involved RT on the intial stages of approaches. I found that it got quite a bit easier as the course progressed. By the time the course was over and it came to the flight test I was more confident than I was when I took my PPL test.

I found using a PC-based simulator was helpful. Obviously the handling aspects are of no value and personally I didn't find the instrument scan to be useful either, but using navaids with a good wind blowing was very instructive. I also found the RANT software very useful.

troddenmasses

11th Mar 2003, 21:32

Don't worry, I thought exactly the same thing at about the 5 hour mark through my IMC. It is amazing how everything just falls into place after that. Keep persevering - it gets easier.

tomcs

11th Mar 2003, 22:24

Hey guys stick with it...i've had my PPL for just over a year now and i did my IMC a month ago. I have to say that you really do need to be able to fly the aircraft VMC without any real reference to instruments...as if by intuition! Cos the workload is quite hi. Anyways I did my first P1 instrument flight today into Bournemouth...tracked into BIA beacon and got a radar vectored ILS....boy did it feel good to pop out of cloud at 800' and have 3000 meters of tarmac stretching out infront of me! So it just goes to show that it does work....and if you can do the night rating...its amazingly good fun....and it does'nt need a test at the end!

Right....back to the ATPL's

Tom

Hersham Boy

12th Mar 2003, 07:26

Me, too - 3hrs IMC so far and the exam passed. It's very disconcerting (I seem to have done all my hours so far actually in IMC, rather than wearing foggles) and I really wouldn't want to find myself up there in those conditions solo, despite being perfectly capable and confident with radio navaids.

If flying wasn't hard work, everyone would be doing it, right?! :)

Hersh

FlyingForFun

31st Mar 2003, 16:56

Just when I thought I was getting the hang of it....

After a couple of weeks off, I had another IMC lesson on Saturday. Actually had two lessons booked. Arrived nice and early despite the appaling weather. Agreed with instructor that we'd brief two lessons, and then see if the weather had improved. So we talked about partial panel and unusual attitudes, and then about approaches.

Everything sounded easy and logical. We sat down with the VOR/DME plate for runway 02 at Southampton, and briefed it very thoroughly since it was going to be my first attempt at an approach. We didn't actually go to EGHI - instead, we planned to fly the appraoch at a safe height above Compton VOR/DME.

Briefing over, and the viz was still too bad to consider taking off, even IFR. So we moved to the bar, and chatted over a Diet Coke and some food. Then, early afternoon, my instructor noticed the vis was improving, and said she was happy to go if I was. It wasn't good enough for the partial panel and unusual attitude work, but we could do the approach first.

It was now a couple of hours since the briefing, but everything was still fairly fresh in my head. Pre-flighted and took off, and flew to the VOR. And that's when the good stuff ended.

We did a parallel entry to the hold, which went completely wrong because I completely overshot the assigned radial, and spent the whole of the inbound leg trying to get back onto it again. Flew around the hold a few times, with every time getting slightly better. Eventually, I was flying a reasonable holding pattern, and my instructor used her best ATC voice to clear me for the approach. Got tied up with descending, forgot the approach checks until I got a gentle reminder from my instructor. Just about finished the checks in time and put the flaps down as I was about to turn inbound - totally unprepared to handle the change of attitude as the flaps went down at the same time as turning, and nearly stalled. (Instructor later advised me not to put flaps down so early - sounds like good advice.) Got in a complete mess sorting everything out, seriously overshot my assigned altitude, then got in a mess fixing that and overshot my heading. Finally got everything sorted out, and was so relieved that I just forgot to keep working. Bust my MDH (lucky it wasn't a real approach), and was completely unprepared for the missed procedure. When we got to the missed approach point, although I knew my outbound radial, I didn't have the OBS set up. Neither did I have any idea what radial I'd be heading back to the VOR on. I was vaguely aware that something was supposed to happen at 7 DME, but I didn't know what.

I now realised exactly what is meant when people talk about being "behind the aeroplane". This was the first time since doing circuits for my PPL that I really felt like I couldn't fly.

After the second approach, we headed back home (at least I was familiar with the let-down procedure that we use to get visual before entering the White Waltham ATZ - I flew it better than I'd flown the previous approach, but still needed lots of prompting). And then I flew a visual approach followed by a pretty nice landing. Nice landings are quite rare when I'm tired, so it seems like I'm getting over the "absolutely knackered after every session" stage that ChiSau talks about, so that's something at least.

My plan before my next lesson is two-fold. First of all, fly the approach again on MS Flight Sim. And secondly, look over a load of approach plates, and fly them in my head - paying special attention to setting up nav-aids, OBSs, heading bugs and so on. Might even have a go at flying a few different approaches on Flight Sim if I get a chance.

The flying part is becoming second nature very quickly. The rest of it is going to take a bit of work!

FFF
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drauk

31st Mar 2003, 19:01

Very interesting FFF. Personally I found flying approaches on a simulator good practise for gaining familiarity with a particular approach, but not for the overall nature of flying an instrument approach. Not sure how clear that is - what I mean is that if I knew I'd subsequently be flying a particular approach in real life I'd do it a few times on the sim as this would help me later when visualising what was going on when I couldn't actually see anything. But it didn't help me learn to prioritize, or remember to do certain checks, or start the stopwatch, or make radio calls etc. I think this is because these things don't have any consequence in the comfort of your living room or your study. As such, using something like RANT is perhaps better for this kind of practise, because then you concentrate purely on the procedure.

As another personal observation, I don't think studying loads of approach plates is a good idea. When you become more experienced you get better at picking up the salient details, but in the early stages of learning I think it is helpful to just concentrate on as few key items (outbound track, DME at which to commence the turn, inbound track, descent points, etc.). as you can get away with. Otherwise it all gets away from you and, as you've found, once that happens it is harder to get back on top of it.

But don't get disheartened. It is all too easy to get fixated on something and it screws up everything else. I remember my instructor starting to raise his voice when he had asked me to go around and I was concentrating so hard on the glideslope. He ended up saying "You are diving at the runway", which when I looked up I realised was true. Another time when I was doing a go-around I called ATC to tell them but was still thinking so hard about the final stages of the approach that I didn't let go of the PTT after making the radio call. I just sat there, frozen with my finger pushed down. Turns out it was only for a couple of seconds but it seemed like ages. And then, after a while, all that just stopped happening and I started to relax and enjoy it.

Circuit Basher

31st Mar 2003, 19:53

FFF - welcome to the club! When I was trying to learn IMC, my brain used to get fried and I was just dishwater after a 1 - 2 hr IMC session. For most of my IMC training, I was in genuine IMC (no foggles used at all) and for some sessions, I didn't see a horizon from about 300ft AAL until on finals. I started to get the hang of it, but then had a break due to some issues with the club I was at. I also found that having 3 different instructors (not my choice!) and minimal ground brief / de-brief was not a good way to do it. I used to fly straight through the localiser beam (when told to report 'localiser established', call 'beacon outbound' when I was on the final hold and all sorts of poo like that!).

I must get back and current with it - a 3 year break means I'm probably back to square one.

Keef

31st Mar 2003, 20:06

MSFS is nothing like the real thing, but it's a lot better than nothing, and it has the advantage that you can stop it at any point, and work out what's gone wrong and why.

I use a variety of approach plates from all sorts of places, and fly ILS, back-course, NDB, VOR, VOR-A, DME arc, and the like at various Florida airfields. Set everything to fully realistic, set the cloudbase to 50 feet above whatever is the MDA for the approach you're doing, and plan to go around on one out of two anyway (just use an MDA 100 feet above the plate "for lack of practice").

I used to do lots of that before each IMC renewal test, and never had a problem. Now, I strive to keep the FAA IR current, so do lots of simulated IFR in the aeroplane. That's better but more expensive...

Tinstaafl

1st Apr 2003, 02:52

Flying an approach can get a bit like the proverbial 'alligators & swamp draining' scenario ie it can be difficult to prioritise. Single Pilot approaches is very like a one armed paper hanger!

One way to keep your mind focused on the next most important thing is to continually self brief the most important info. I use & teach 'T.A.A.': Track Altitude Aid.

Track: Next direction of turn, HDG or Tr. to intercept, set HDG bug/OBS if possible.

Note: 'tracks' are to be intercepted. Headings to be held.

Altitude: Next target altitude + next altitude limit

Aid: Flags away (VOR/ILS) / Ident OK (NDB) + set/tuned if a change is necessary. Of course, given enough boxes then you'd make sure these were all set prior to commencing the approach.

This would be done as soon as you've got yourself established on each preceding leg ie prior to each turn or as each limit is reached then repeated until the next data set takes over.

Some various examples, swapping a various things along the way:

Sector 1 entry: "Next: RIGHT turn. Head 180 (set hdg bug) outbound 1 minute. Not below 4000. Ident OK."

Once that's exececuted: "Next: RIGHT turn. Track 360 inbound. Not below 4000. Flags away."

etc etc on each straight leg.

Inbound, ready for the approach. If not ready go round & round & round the holding pattern until you are!:

"Next: LEFT turn, track 349 outbound 1 min 30., Descend 2500. Flags away."

Established outbound: "Next: LEFT procedure turn. Track 169 inbound. Not below 1800 until 6 DME. MDA 750. Flags away"

Established inbound: "Missed: RIGHT turn at 1 DME HDG 030 (set bug) to track 123 inbound (xyz aid). Climb 4000. Flags away."

etc etc. The idea is to keep uppermost in your mind the next most important information.

It's what I was taught, still practice & teach. It might work for you.

G-SPOTs Lost

1st Apr 2003, 03:32

Tinst... sounds good might try it on my next student.

If I can just chuck in some of my own 2p's.

A lot of IFR flying is very repetative and most peoples problems are concerned with an initial lack of mental capacity. To

Fly reasonably accurately

Run Checks & tasks

Fly procedurally - thats to say the tracking/height profile combination.

A lot of this can be taken care of with the 7 dwarfs!!!!

That is to say at 11pm on a Friday Evening after having sunk 7 pints and somebody asks you to name them all you immediately without any delay say"happygrumpysleepysneezydopeybashfuldoc".

The ability to recall repetative info and respond to it is a key to good IFR flying, it frees up capacity to fly the airplane.

Learn the checks/repetative tasks and dont forget to ask for ice!!

Hour 9 sounds about right for it starting to make some sense

happy flying

FlyingForFun

1st Apr 2003, 15:25

Wow, thanks for the advice everyone! I think I have RANT somewhere, but I've never played with it - will check it out at the next available chance.

Tinstaafl, your advice sounds particularly good, as it's pretty much the same conclusions I'd come to myself, only much more formalised. Will definitely give that one a go. (Incidentally, was at my parents' last night, and mum insisted on watching University Challenge. Finally discovered what "Tinstaafl" means. And all this time I thought it was just a random bunch of letters!)

Cheers,

FFF
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Fly Stimulator

10th Apr 2003, 02:54

I feel it's unfair for you chaps to have all the fun, so I've decided to join the IMC Class of '03 myself.

It was listening to Evo at Duxford last weekend describing just how much fun it was which finally clinched it for me! ;)

The one bit of Morse I know at the moment is . . . / - - - / . . .

Hope I don't need it!

Evo

10th Apr 2003, 03:18

:)

Had an IMC lesson this afternoon and for a while it all started to make sense :eek: :) but a descending partial-panel turn to intercept and hold the 140 GWC radial (crosswind was a bonus :( ) soon fixed that :confused: :mad:

There's still no fuggin' chance of me flying an approach. I'm praying that the "all makes sense at 9 hours" thing applies to me too :)

Aussie Andy

10th Apr 2003, 05:15

Well, not being one to be left out, I am also set to start IMC soon - just negotiating diary dates with the instructor at present... GERONIMO!!!!

Andy ;)

KCDW

10th Apr 2003, 05:18

Just don't do it in 2 weeks like I did - your brain will fry :)

Aussie Andy

10th Apr 2003, 05:26

No: what's been discussed is to do the first 6~8 hrs as separate ~2hr lessons, then to "blitz" the later part of the course in blocks of 2~3 days.

Fly Stimulator

10th Apr 2003, 05:36

Andy,

That sounds like quite a good way to approach it.

I don't want to string it out over too long a period, but it does sound as if it's possible to have too much of a good thing early on in the course, so yours sounds like a good compromise.

Perhaps on our next visit to Le Touquet in the haze we can pick up their ILS just off Hastings, call final at 30 miles and blast on in like some others seemed to be doing the last time we went there!

KCDW

10th Apr 2003, 05:44

Just a note of support -

It is pretty formidable at first, but it does come together eventually, and lifting the foggles at 500' after successfully completing an ILS letdown, and seeing that runway (roughly) ahead of you is a fantastic feeling, it's up there with first solo, QXC and the GFT.

Aussie Andy

10th Apr 2003, 05:47

FS: Perhaps on our next visit to Le Touquet in the haze we can pick up their ILS just off Hastings, call final at 30 miles and blast on in like some others seemed to be doing the last time we went there! Quite! :rolleyes:

Actually, I've been looking at Steve Levien's impressive pics of his day Trip to Rouen (http://www.stevelevien.com/rouen.htm) and am totally inspired! Hopefully, this will be a good goal after gaining IMC... but planning to do it with another IMC rated friend of mine to halve the workload! So much for the goal: now I just need to do the work and get the rating...!

KCDW: I'm looking forward to that feeling!

Fly Stimulator

10th Apr 2003, 05:51

Andy,

Except of course with the IMC the magic spell wears off as soon as you leave the UK and you're back to having to look where you're going again ;)

KCDW Thanks for the moral support - sounds as if it might come in handy!

tomcs

10th Apr 2003, 06:31

Erm....am i missing the point of the IMC?? I have an IMC and night and although i can use the night rating anywhere within the EU i can only use the IMC within UK airspace and the channel islands. So how did Steve (unless he is IR rated) do the day trip with out breaking a few rules ( unless he was VMC all the way!!). That feeling of the first cloud break is pretty awesome though i did it a few months back after an ILS into Bournemouth!

Tom

Hersham Boy

10th Apr 2003, 17:05

I hadn't thought this was going to be too difficult until I started reading this thread.

Now I'm scared witless of my next IMC lesson!

Steer clear of Redhill in IMC y'all ;)

Hersh

drauk

10th Apr 2003, 19:50

Don't be scared, it's not that bad. The only thing that bothered me was when we couldn't get a radar service from anywhere when in actual IMC. It's a big sky and you do what you can to get out of IMC, but with see and avoid being drummed in to you from day one of your PPL it made me feel uncomfortable.

Aussie Andy

10th Apr 2003, 20:26

Ref. Steve and Rouen, I'd assume the guys has an IR: no idea, I just admire his photos!

And yes, I know the IMC rating is UK only... but I am thinking ahead to the day when I have more ;)

Andy

Evo

17th Apr 2003, 02:33

A beautiful CAVOK day and I'm up there wearing foggles :rolleyes: :)

Still, it's getting better - I spent most of today's lesson ahead of the aeroplane rather than behind it, delt with my instructors surprise 'ATC instructions' (usually at moments of high workload) and managed to find my way round Goodwood's VOR letdown OK. Had an easy entry and avoided the hold, but was very satisfying to lift up the foggles and see the runway where it should be. Finally feel like i'm getting somewhere :)

How are the rest of the learner-IMCers getting on?

jayemm

17th Apr 2003, 05:16

The problem with the IMC is, once you've got it, keeping it up. (This is a problem that seems to increase with age.)

After I got my IMC, I flew 'on top' and in cloud fairly often, and thoroughly enjoyed the privelege, but did not (need to) do one instrument approach. The IMC lapsed last June and even though I miss having the IMC, it seems just as difficult to get sorted on the revalidation. Seeing those Rouen pictures might just get me motivated to sort it out this time.

FlyingForFun

17th Apr 2003, 16:59

Evo, glad you're enjoying it!

My rating's progressing well, too - did my first ILS's last weekend. Everything was starting to fall into place - until my instructor made me talk to ATC, first of all for the SAR at Farnborough, then the missed approach and back round for a radar-vectored turn onto the ILS. Suddenly, the fact that I had to go where I was told, and not where I'd planned to go, meant that I was completely unprepared, didn't know what checks I was supposed to do when, and barely knew where I was! :O

That aside, I'm really enjoying the whole experience, especially getting my brain to really work hard in the cockpit. The only bit I don't like, as you say, is when my instructor tells me what a beautiful day it is, and I'm stuck under the foggles - I'd much rather do every lesson in real IMC!

Jayemm, that is definitely an issue. Especially since my regular aircraft isn't cleared for flight in IMC. Because of that, I plan on renting a club aircraft every month or two, taking a safety pilot with me, and doing an entire flight on instruments. If I can find real IMC for these flights, that's even better.

FFF
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ChiSau

17th Apr 2003, 17:39

I've rather stalled at the moment due to high (salaried)workload and some family stuff. Hoping to fly this weekend, but not doing any more IMC lessons till the one after - when hopefully I'll get to do some more night, this time at Southend! :D

Definately need to find some time to do more studying though! :(

Aussie Andy

18th Apr 2003, 06:40

Well, for the record, my progress report is that I've done IMC lesson 1 (!), just a recap on ijstrument appreciation from the PPL plus half an hour or so's just flying around to regain the feel for being on instruments... so not much to report really: its all ahead of me and I can't wait! I have to though due to some scheduling difficulties I won't be doing lessons two and three unitl later in May...

Andy :=

2Donkeys

18th Apr 2003, 14:32

Andy wrote:

Ref. Steve and Rouen, I'd assume the guys has an IR: no idea, I just admire his photos!

Sorry I came to this a bit late. The pilot in question (ermm me, in fact :}) does have an IR and the weather on the way back (see the later photos) also required an aircraft approved for known icing, as you may gather. It was bone-numbingly cold both on the ground, and aloft. Definitely a night where you wished you had a first officer to send out to do the walkaround, and Steve wasn't playing ball :D

The trip was just as fun as it looks and Rouen is a destination to be recommended whatever the weather. Alex, the lovely young lady ATCO there is very helpful, owns her own Vintage Nord aircraft (http://www.nord3400.com), and is someone we have come to know very well over the last year or so.

Steve is an ace photographer, and as a result of he and I flying extensively together, I have a very high quality photographic record of the vast majority of my flights. He may be open to offers if you want a similar service...

BEagle

19th Apr 2003, 03:55

Stick with the IMC rating training guys, it's worth it in the long run. Honest!!!

Here's a typical good reason. A week ago we took a pair of ac to France for lunch. Hazy vis. on departure, but within SVFR limits for an IMC rating holder in our Class D airspace. Most of the way to Petersfield we were over 8/8 cloud well below - again, no problem for an IMC rating holder, but not permitted for a plain vanilla PPL. Then the Wx improved near Goodwood and we were VFR all the way to Deauville for a very pleasant lobster luncheon. Back home later and there was a fair bit of cloud on the coast and over Southern England - but good enough for a pairs visual landing when we got back.

In fact I'm so keen on people doing the IMC rating that I never charge an Examiner's fee for conducting their IMC rating Skill Tests! Or re-validations!!

Aussie Andy

21st Apr 2003, 21:41

Hey BEagle, thanks for the words of encouragement... and nice to know there's someone who doesn't charge a fee ;)

The scenario you describe is definitely one which comes to mind when I think of why I want an IMC rating; I think it would reduce the stress and indigestion caused to a nice lunch as you describe if you spend te whole afternoon just worrying (as I have at LFAT!) that the wx may deteriorate making the retunr trip difficult...

Also, days like today - and the last couple of days - which I have spent on the ground (at Bath with family on a short break): hazy beneath a relatively low cloud-base, but I coulod see thgrough the breaks to the blue above and spent a lot of time gazing skywards and wondering what it will be like to cruise in nice clear blue skies ABOVE the cloud layer, en-route to an instrument let down at my favourite destination(s)..!

Until that day......

Andy :ok:

IO540-C4D5D

21st Apr 2003, 22:59

As others have mentioned, it tends to "click" after some hours so don't worry too much.

However:-

Different instructors work differently. I flew with 3 or 4 different ones, basically due to varying availability, and similarly in different planes. I spent some 10 hours with one instructor who demanded NDB holds to perfection (within 5 degrees on both legs) which I now know is stupid, especially as this being nearly the first thing we did. Some put you under a lot more pressure than others. Some have no idea what you actually need to be able to do right. Try to find an instructor who flies IFR for real, they approach things much more practically and you will learn more actually useful stuff. The IMCR syllabus is very vague and IMHO the absolute minimum isn't enough for real flight when you look at the really great privileges you get.

Flying a knackered plane in which the DI drifts 10 degrees every 10 minutes (not kidding) makes tracking any navaid FAR harder. The instructor won't tell you that, of course, he just works there. I've had instructors tell me that badly drifting instruments improve your scan ...a total load of tosh... So be choosy about what you train in - it will save you money. Pay extra per hour for a better plane if you can, or go to a different school which has a better plane. It makes a BIG difference. When you fly in real IMC on your own, you sure as hell won't want to do it in something clapped out, so why learn that way?

Try (and this is going to be controversial) to find an instructor who will train in actual IMC so you don't have to wear foggles. Obviously doing it under a Radar Information Service is a good idea. It is a lot easier to fly in actual IMC than to fly under foggles or especially that ghastly "tunnel vision" black plastic IFR hood, especially if you have to do other things like reading an approach plate. Of course you will never fly with a hood yourself for real!

Unlike with JAR ratings, the same person can also do your IMCR skills test.

Also you can start above the clouds; it is easier on you but is good practice for navaids because you won't have a clue where you are.

Flying in IMC on your own later (when you've passed the skills test), or perhaps with a friend who is IMC/IR, is a lot easier than with an instructor because the pressure isn't there, and you've got enough work on as it is. Flying is a constant learning process and you will learn while enjoying it.

Finally, you can fly VFR in any old piece of junk with crap or missing avionics, and many do. Doing the same in IMC might be legal (outside controlled airspace etc) but is awfully hard work. So you will be looking at getting into something better, and this will very much affect what you rent, buy into, or buy outright. If you want to fly a lot of IMC then an autopilot, even a simple one, is pretty well essential otherwise you will be like a zombie when you arrive. Same goes for currency; unlike VFR you can't just drop it for 6 months and then go up into the clouds.

Aussie Andy

22nd Apr 2003, 18:30

Thanks IO540-C4D5D, interesting comments. I like the idea of flying in real IMC but so far am discovering that, just as good VMC was sometimes hard to come by doing the PPL, "good" IMC can sometimes be hard to come by when you want it too :rolleyes:! I've been thinking about my instructor and aircraft choices in light of what you've said:

Certainly my instructor is a real IMC kinda-guy, willing to teach in real IMC and he flies commercial jet airliners for a living so meets your other criteria of regularly flying IFR for real.

The aircraft I am training in is a C152, not what I'm used to but seems very stable and easy to fly, and the DI seems pretty good (doesn't precess too quicly) on first acquaintance. What it lacks is DME, so I guess I can't learn DME arc-ing and ILS/DME approaches, but it does have a Marker beacon receiver so can still do ILS, and it has a single VOR.

I first thought that single VOR and no DME would be a handicap as I'll obviously need to see two intersecting radials from two different beacons in order to figure out where I am, hence much twiddling of frequency and OBS knobs whilst aviating, communicating, rubbing my stomach and patting my head! But as the VOR receiver fitted to the aircraft is a KX-155A (http://www.seaerospace.com/king/kx155a.htm) life in this regard is a lot easier than it might have otherwise been.

This device gives a sort of "instant digital read out" of bearing to/from the beacon, without having to twiddle the OBS, so you can quickly with one button flip/flop between two VOR's and see displayed eg: "270 from" and "090 to" and then figure out where you are, so hopefully this will help - time will tell :uhoh:

Andy :ok:

Tinstaafl

22nd Apr 2003, 18:48

Andy, are you checking the morse ident each time you change freq.? That's what I taught/do.

I also taught VOR 1st then ADF. VOR is a bit easier & has useful cross-transference of skills that can be applied to the more difficult ADF.

What are the track/altitude tolerances for the IMC? I have no idea because I went from a foreign licence direct to a UK one ie with an IR not IMC.

In Oz the test tolerance for an IR is +/- 5 deg or half scale.

Whilst I wouldn't expect a student to get that initially they certainly had to by the end of their course.

Aussie Andy

22nd Apr 2003, 18:56

Yep, we have to ident the beacons!

Don't know what the test tolerances are: will let you know when I do...

Andy

Fly Stimulator

22nd Apr 2003, 19:05

Since my own poor vandalised aircraft is grounded for the indefinite future I took the chance to start my IMC training at the weekend.

I'm also doing it in a 152 (though may use a PA-28 too later). After some general handling on instruments and a bit of VOR tracking we spent most of the time doing NDB tracking.

I can already see what I suspect my learning pattern is going to be:

1) Read the book

2) Fly the exercise and find that some of it works as I'd expected, other bits don't; some things I'd managed to forget in the day or so since reading about them, and some are entirely new to me.

3) Generally discover that I need to improve my mental juggling skills so that I can keep more balls in the air (and centred of course) at once.

4) Go home and read the same bit of the book again, finding that it makes more sense now

5) Practice the exercise on the PC flight simulator, where it mysteriously seems relatively easy. Why don't real aircraft have a 'Pause' button?

6) Return to (1)

Next lesson booked for Sunday afternoon, to be spent at Calais where there's apparently a nice cheap ILS.

Here's hoping for cloudy weather ;)

FlyingForFun

22nd Apr 2003, 20:48

Fly, that sounds very similar to my pattern! Except that the bits I have trouble with are the bits which aren't in the book - my instructor warned me that Trevor Thom isn't too good for the IMC, and she was right.

I had another two lessons this weekend. First lesson was a couple of ILSs at Farborough. The main thing to concentrate on wasn't the ILS itself (which I seem to be getting the hang of fairly quickly) but the radar vectoring - although I'm capable of following instructions from ATC, I had found it difficult to follow where I'm being taken when I'm being vectored.

Well, I think my instructor had been on the phone to the controller, because he (the controller) tried his best to confuse me for the first one! Told me that he'd be taking me to the west of the field due to gliding at Lasham, then proceeded to vector me to the east! Anyway, I was on the ball and figured out what was going on, which I was pretty pleased with. After the go-around, we were vectored in for another approach, and again I had a good idea of where we were the whole time. After that, it was time to head home, trying to maintain enough situational awareness to not fly through the Blackbushe ATZ, which I also managed. A successful flight!

The next lesson was all completely unprepared. Instructor told me to take off then head for Compton, and she'd give me further instructions after that. Well, I ruined her first plan by guessing where she was going to send me(!) so she had to re-plan, and we ended up back at Farnborough again! This time the radar vectors took me right over the top of some restricted areas, so situational awareness was very important. The air was getting pretty bumpy, and the ILS was, well, difficult - but I managed to keep it within limits, so I was happy, and my instructor seemed happy too. We decided to recap some other bits - partial panel, NDB tracking, unusual attitudes - which also went well, and then headed home.

Only a few more hours to go, and it really is starting to come together now. Won't be too long before I'm posting looking for safety pilots! Although I already have a few willing volunteers, so it may be a little while before I have to post...

Safe flying,

FFF
-------------

Fly Stimulator

22nd Apr 2003, 21:31

You mean that you have to know where you are as well as keeping the aircraft the right way up? :eek:

This is going to be trickier than I'd anticipated. :uhoh:

Tim_Q

1st May 2003, 01:11

Interesting reading your thoughts on IMC. Just thinking about doing it this summer!
One question you chaps may know, FFF probably will :ok: -
can you tell me if at the moment an IMC holder is entitled to reduced hrs during IR training further down the line?
I've seen some confusion over this before.
Cheers,
Tim

FlyingForFun

1st May 2003, 01:23

Tim,

No, it doesn't - you still have to do the full number of hours. A CPL will get you a few hours off, but not an IMC rating.

However, it will (ironically) get you time off an FAA IR. The FAA IR consists of (I forget the exact number of hours, but) a minimum of X hour of instrument flying, of which Y must be with an FAA instructor on an approved course, but the rest (about 20 hours I think?) can be any instrument time at all. Including your IMC rating, your instrument work for your PPL, or post-IMC rating actual IMC time, or simulated IMC time with a friend as safety pilot. To convert your FAA IR to a JAR IR, you will need a minimum of 15 hours (as well as the IR or ATPL exam credits, of course).

So if you've got an IMC rating, and you're looking to upgrade to an IR, then getting an FAA IR first and converting is probably the way to go.

The source of confusion is that an IMC rating did get you time off a CAA IR, but not off a JAA IR.

FFF
-------------

KCDW

1st May 2003, 01:37

Fantastic, succinct advice - thanks!!

May consider the FAA IR while I'm in the US after all....

Maybe I can find some N registered planes to fly back in the UK

Tim_Q

1st May 2003, 01:47

FFF,
I didn't expect such a rapid response, I was just about to post again as I have just found another thread where you have previously answered this!
Your answer was kind of what I was expecting :mad:
Makes little sense to me and now I have to ask myself, can I afford to do an IMC now if I'm intending to do an IR in a year or so?! Probably not which is a shame.
Tim

IO540-C4D5D

1st May 2003, 23:22

I think that a flying school which is completely honest with its students should offer two types of PPL:

1. Standard PPL (to show your mates you can fly)

2. A Useful PPL (to go places; the present PPL plus an IMC Rating)

:O

Of course in reality this would not generate much business because of the general shortage of IFR capable aircraft available for rental (at any price) and the required currency for IMC flight.

pmcadams

4th May 2003, 21:14

I dont know if this will help, but I have about 15 hrs under my belt for my IMC rating, was actually ready to take the test, but unavailability of an examiner and lack of cash flow meant it has been put off.

But I learnt in real IMC, i think its the only way cause those foggles p*ss me of! But I asked my instructor to purposly make it difficult for me, as I want a comercial licence and IR, of which he duly applied.

I prefer NDB's for navaids than VORs as they are so easy to use, no I'm not using an RMI! If you just treat the navaids as a simple point and they all have radials, you will soon understand fairly quickly the theory, its just displayed differently, you then find that your holds an working out where you are becomes second nature quicker.

I am quite happy popping out at 500ft with 20 degrees of drift on a displaced inboud leg to landing, eventually it all just drops into place, i cant wait for my IR! But I have to get my IMC officially out of the way first!

GJB

6th May 2003, 05:05

The best advise I can offer is be rested and thoroughly prepared.

If you are on top of things, you should actually enjoy it!!

GroundBound

6th May 2003, 20:50

tinstaafl since no-one's replied on tolerances, I think (!!) its 5 degrees and 100ft. Don't know about ILS deviation though.

Having read this thread through again, it makes me envious - I would dearly love to get the IMC rating but can't make use of it outside the UK, and would also find it difficult to maintain. The IR is quite out of the question :{ .

I did a couple of hours IMC last year in Northern Ireland, but the weather was too bad for instrument training - jeez - only in Ireland! :D

I'm off again in a months time, and hope to get a few more hours IMC under my belt - weather permitting. Bit by bit - and maybe I'll get there. :ok:

phnuff

7th May 2003, 04:19

Last year, I revalidated my IMC for the xth time and can assure anyone worrying about how knackered they feel learning, that I still feel knackered when I go up for checks with an instructir prior to each test.

I was told by my original IMC instructor (a Mr C Ladbrooke - if anyone knows of his whereabouts, let me know by pm, I still hear his voice every time I fly an approach), that if when on instruments, if you go more than 10 seconds without checking someing, you are doing an inadequate job.

Its worth it though !!

Barney_Gumble

9th May 2003, 18:46

Hi Folks,

I have just read through this post from start to finish this morning and have been looking at IMC training. I am only in the investigation phase and have spoken to an instructor about starting in September.

I was interested to hear the comments about using flight simulation s/w and so thought I might invest along with the Thom book. Having just looked at the usual sources of pilot gear I noticed there are a few different s/w packages:

- MS 2002 Flight Simulator
- Jeppesen FAA IFR Flight Sim For Serous Pilots
- OnTop IFR Flight Sim
- Instrument Procedure Training Course
- RANT

My question is which should I focus on and more importantly which of these are way off beam. It seems from the thread that MS Flight Simulator & RANT seem to be the favorites?

Any advice………

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~derek/proon/cat.gif

DRJAD

9th May 2003, 20:02

Well, I've not got a copy of MS Flight Simulator, but I have got RANT.

Just started IMC training, and at least two instructors have commented on how good RANT is to get the idea before adding the real stuff in flying. Both have also been good enough to mention that what I picked up in RANT is also obvious in my flying.

No hesitation in recommending RANT - excellent software.

Evo

9th May 2003, 20:40

There's a RANT demo, so you can try it. I'm using FS2002 - i always used to think that it was rubbish, but i'm finding it very useful for practicing holds, procedural approaches, the ILS etc.

Best bet if you're on a budget would be to pick up a copy of FS98 for a fiver. The flight model is the same, view out the window is worse but you're not looking at that

rustle

9th May 2003, 21:03

B_G,

As you're really only "simulating" the procedures and not the flying, FS98 (or higher) is a good bet.

Helps with the morse if you don't just practice the same ones all the time :rolleyes:

Also helps visualise what the OBS/RBI look like - "fly" some of the more advanced models and you get an RMI instead, which is handy if that's what your training aircraft has...

Also good to just sit in the cockpit of the real aircraft and visualise what would be happening - and it's free ;)

Pen and paper work, too :)

PS, check your PMs.

drauk

9th May 2003, 21:42

RANT is excellent, both as a tutorial and as a tool for trying things out. When trying things out it is both an advantage and a disadvantage that you don't have to actually spend any effort flying the plane. It's good in that (a) you're not kidding yourself that it is real and (b) you can concentrate on the navigation and use of the nav aids. However, (b) is also the disadvantage after a while - whilst nobody would argue that PC flight simulators are completely realistic that doesn't mean to say there is no value in them being as realistic as possible. In other words, having to concentrate on flying the plane (holding a level and a heading for example) whilst you're juggling other things in your head is a more realistic setup and ultimately more useful as a result.

Microsoft flight sim is fine for this stuff, but I prefer x-plane. The flight model is more realistic, which you may or may not care about, but also the whole thing is much more fluid and the response of the instruments are more realistic than Microsoft's. It is at least as good as the other simulators you mention, cheaper than most and has some interesting/fun other options too. You can download a trial from their website.

pmcadams

10th May 2003, 21:40

Groundbound those sound like sensible tolerances, I am not quite sure of the exact figures, I can see my trevor thom from here but I am not getting up to fetch it!

I always remember a little phrase that helps me, from my instructor actually!

'Never except second best'

Its as simple as that, if the dial doesnt say what you want, quite simply do somthing about it, 50ft maybe 50 ft, but its still not what you want!

Remember we are professionals now!

The four T's also help when making approaches, always go over the beacon, just a little to the side wont do, and start timing imediately.

TTTT (Time Turn Task Talk)

Fly Stimulator

25th Aug 2003, 04:48

Just resurrecting this cobweb-covered thread to record the happy news that I finished my IMC today with a successful flight test. :)

My preparation for this great event was to take a PA28 to a microlight rally, dine on a fine steak tartare, spend the night in a tent on the grass at Abbeville and then fly back for a spot of last minute revision before the test this afternoon. It seemed to do the trick.

The test involved tracking out of Lydd up to Detling, then in on the SND NDB to Southend, once round the hold, then an NDB approach to 06 in a rather stiff wind before the examiner had a bit of fun giving me various full and partial panel recoveries etc.

All-in-all a fairly intense hour-and-a-half, but, like banging your head against the wall, it was nice when it was over!

I know from other postings that FFF finished his a while ago - how is the rest of the Class of '03 getting on?

I had a very good instructor, but RANT and the IMC Confuser came in pretty handy too!

Evo

25th Aug 2003, 05:05

Just at the end of 'basic' and moving on to 'applied' and the joys of the £20 go-around - plan on finishing before the end of September. Much to my relief it's getting easier, but I still hate limited panel...

Aussie Andy

25th Aug 2003, 05:11

Wish I could say the same... have postponed afetr a few hours due to a) instructor away too often with his day job as a 737 charter pilot... this time of year difficult to get him on weekends; and b) some family problems which meant I had to go back to Australia for a time.

Planning to kick off again in the winter...

Well done Fly Stimulator and FFF

Andy

dope05

29th Aug 2003, 03:03

I got an IMC rating back in the early 1990's, in those days you were not allowed to do an IFR approach to places such as Manchester. As such you had to get back to VMC before entering the zone. I thought that this was iffy to say the least and did the full IR. The difference is a massive one. Not only all the ground school and then two days with the CAA exams at Gatport Airwick but a flight test with CAAFU, never been so nervous in my life.... but if you are thinking of doing it and have the time ( Took 300 hrs of ground study using a correspondance course and a week's refresher training) then the benefits are worth it. I actually find flying on the airways dead simple and you have positive radar control all the time.

Worth Considering.

Dope05

Fly Stimulator

29th Aug 2003, 06:19

Well yes, a full IR would be lovely (especially as many people say that IMC holders should never actually use the rating on purpose; only when they've blundered into cloud by mistake), but these days it is well beyond the reach of most recreational pilots in the UK both in terms of the cost and the amount of time that has to be devoted to the ground school and exams.

If I do decide to go for an IR in future it will be the FAA one. It's a shame we don't have something equally accessible on this side of the Atlantic.

tmmorris

2nd Sep 2003, 23:54

Used my IMC rating for the first time in anger on Wednesday - I was going from Oxford - Old Buckenham - Oxford, arrived at 10am to find 400ft cloud base... As it began to clear around noon I booked an IFR departure slot and by the time I left I could have gone VFR, marginal, but decided to go for the IFR departure. Real feeling that it was all worth it, as I climbed into the cloud on a BOTLI departure, routed via WCO to CFD and then came out of the cloud at Cranfield. I had taken the precaution of ringing Cambridge to make sure they had suitable conditions so I didn't end up at Old Buckenham without an instrument approach...

Now was that a dangerous thing to do? That counts as using the rating deliberately... but it was the first bit of IMC flying I'd done for several months and if I don't use it, I'll lose the skills...

Tim

Fly Stimulator

4th Sep 2003, 01:57

tmmorris,

I'm with you on this one. Having gone to the trouble of getting the IMC rating I do intend to actually use it. At the very least I believe that given the choice of scud-running at low level or climbing through cloud to fly VFR on top it will be a good deal safer doing the latter.

I'm very aware of the significant difference between IMC and IR training and skill levels since the friend who owns the aircraft I often fly is just completing the process of moving from IMC to IR and I've seen just how much extra work goes into it, even for somebody who used his IMC constantly.

As a new IMC holder I know that I have a very rudimentary set of instrument flying skills, but I don't want to let those skills atrophy. Using them (with instructor from time-to-time) seems like a good idea to me.