Newquay - Plymouth - Gatwick [Archive]

Fosters Expat

3rd Mar 2003, 19:18

Groundhog,

Current situation is this. BACX are trying to offload all turboprops, and the Dash8 is hopefully going to be aquired by Sutton Harbour Holdings. This is the company which owns Plymouth City Airport, and wishes to reform Brymon (or a new airline). Many ex Brymon staff have been approached / approached Sutton Harbour Holdings, which should mean they have a lot of staff available to them that are familier with route network that I'm sure the new airline would pick up.

As for any further info, that is unlikely to happen as any staff being interviewed/employeed are to sign a confidentiallity agreement.

I would like to see Brymon return, without BA, and see them become a quality regional outfit. Just hope for all that gain employment, that the job will be as fun as Brymon was.

Fosters Expat going back to sleep!

MerchantVenturer

3rd Mar 2003, 21:39

On the theme of west country to London, does anyone know how well the Ryanair Stansted-Newquay service has done since inception? Must be the first anniversary in a month or two.

Also, why does Exeter struggle to get a London service?

Globaliser

4th Mar 2003, 07:17

MerchantVenturer: Also, why does Exeter struggle to get a London service?At a guess, probably because the train service is too good. It slows right down as soon as you get past Exeter, which makes flying to Plymouth and points west more attractive a proposition.

brabazon

4th Mar 2003, 10:06

Judging by the checkin queues during the summer Newquay seemed to be doing ok, not so sure how it's doing now, but there seem to be some good fares. It would attractive for those in London who want a quick break in Cornwall, but don't fancy the drive, mind you you still need to get to Stansted and get from St Mawgan to your destination.

From CAA stats for Nov 2002:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data/200211/Table_12_2_Domestic_Air_Pax_Traffic_Route_Analysis.pdf

7576 passengers were carried on FR's STN-NQY service which would indicate a 67% load factor - not as high as FR's average, but still possibly above break even.

By contrast on LGW-NQY only 3376 passengers were carried a fall of 24% on the same month in Nov 2001. I don't have the frequency/capacity info to hand to work out load factors, but I guess lower than FR's but with a much higher yield.

In trim

4th Mar 2003, 14:24

If a new Brymon does emerge, then I wish all concerned the best of luck.

However, as to the title of this thread, I can see BA getting rid of the turboprops (as planned), but would the LGW slots be available as well. It's only a matter of time before 50 seat operations into LGW become totally uneconomic in comparison to the value of peak-time slots, and any "new Brymon" would be hard-pressed to maintain these slots with this style of operation.

Charlie Fox

4th Mar 2003, 16:16

Have it on good authority that flight deck bidding requests by PLH crews have been turned down. Only one request granted to BHX.
Perhaps all other crews are to be seconded to new airline!!!!

Fosters Expat

4th Mar 2003, 16:21

In Trim,

A very good point raised with regard to how available the slots would be into LGW. It will obviously depend on costs. LGW must have some slots after BA's mass exodus, but of course the Big Orange Machine came behind and snapped them all up. Currently BACX have four slots into LGW which they use for the PLH/NQY flights.

I can't see BA being that bothered about keeping them, because they seem to be reducing services at LGW, so they would more than likely sell them to Stellios.

The other question is how cost effective would a service from PLH/NQY to LGW be without the sales distribution of BA. Brymon by itself would have to market themselves, offering no onward connections, and obviuosly the cost of a ticket would be considerable. Currently PLH/NQY pax are offered free connecting flights if connecting to BA Longhaul services. It's just a thought?

Back to the Bunker!

MerchantVenturer

4th Mar 2003, 16:24

Thanks everyone for the replies to my FR STN-NQY and EXT-LON questions.

I am surprised that FR has a 67% load factor on that route in November, even with rock bottom prices. I thought it would struggle in the winter.

Off topic I am afraid, but brabazon asked about bmibaby's load factors in the 'bmibaby Routes from MAN thread'. I did a bit of calculating on their CWL operation and put in some figures in the bmibaby MAN thread. Don't know if you saw it.

GROUNDHOG

4th Mar 2003, 17:06

Out of imterest I was at the airport when FR loaded last week and it certainly wasn't full, whilst I didn't count the pax I reckon about 50/60 boarded which isn't at all bad for a February departure. Interestingly the BA Gatwick flights were almost full in both directions.

Re Exeter - London the point made is correct, on a good day I can drive from home between Falmouth/Truro ( Newquay) to London in about 5 hours, from Exeter it takes about 3. The train is worse because as stated everything falls apart after Exeter.

I wish Brymon 2 or whoever all the best and why the hell doesn't someone do Newquay - Swansea/Cardiff, again a four hour drive but a very short flight. I did suggest it to Air Wales but they did not seem interested with other expansion plans they have underway.

THERE IS A MARKET FOR IT and if anyone doubts it I have the proof - for a fee!

MerchantVenturer

4th Mar 2003, 21:43

GROUNDHOG,

Nice to get some first hand local south west reporting.

Is FR using 738s or 732s on the NQY service?

For the past few summers there has been daily (possibly not Sundays) Isles of Scilly Airbus DH6 flight from Scilly to BRS and back. Does it go via NQY? If so can tickets be purchased for the NQY-BRS legs and back?

I know NQY is an RAF base but I believe Sutton Holdings operates the civil side there. Is there any possibility of NQY being developed into an airport for Plymouth or is it too far away?

I understand their South Hams proposal has as much chance as the oft-suggested Severnside airport - none.

Fosters Expat

5th Mar 2003, 01:38

Merchant,

I have heard that Sutton Harbour Holdings may have recently sold their interest in NQY? Not sure how corect this info is, as I have been unable to find any confirmation in the media.

Newquay to Plymouth by road is approx 1hr-1hr30mins depending on traffic....... And the roads are not the best for certain parts of the drive. I don't think tht NQY would have the catchment area to be honest, but then again I can't believe that South Hams International has the catchment area either.

Exeter is in direct competition with BRS, not PLH, and the drive between the two is only say 20mins, give or take a bit either way.
Bristol is already established, and South Hams is just a pipe dream....... Likely to stay that way as well, unless Plymouth City Council can sell some traffic lights, you won't ever see it.

(PLH City Council like traffic lights by the way........)

Back To The Bunker!

Charlie Fox

5th Mar 2003, 07:45

Sutton Harbour Holdings have lost the contract to supply ground services at Newquay. Wef 1st April SERCO will be handling the civil side.

welkyboy

5th Mar 2003, 18:01

I dont know what sort of car FE has but he will have to break the legal speed limit by a long way if he thinks you can drive from Exeter to Bristol in 20mins!!! It is 50nm+ direct track. It wil take between 1 to 1hr30mins. to drive.

MerchantVenturer

5th Mar 2003, 19:14

Thanks everyone for the updates.

BTW I took it that Fosters Expat meant 20 mins for the drive between Plymouth and Exeter - even that is going some, I grant you.

Unless the M 5 is suffering one of its frequent blockages it is usually possible to drive from EXT to BRS in about an hour - the worst bit is the last 15 miles or so to BRS up the A 38 with over-the-top speed restrictions for most of the way on that piece of road.

Cyrano

6th Mar 2003, 11:31

I was thinking about possible names for this new "Brymon Mk II" carrier and stuck a few permutations into the whois search engine. The Brymon domain name is still registered to BA (though maybe they'd give it up as part of the deal). Westcountryair.com and aircornwall.com are still available. But - here's the interesting one - airsouthwest.com is already registered (since January 2003)...to someone mentioned on the Sutton Harbour Holdings website! Maybe this is old news to folks in the area, but I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere. So it's to be Air Southwest then if it's not Brymon? Best of luck, anyway, whatever the name!

CandyBender

6th Mar 2003, 16:31

I'm planning to move down to Cornwall sometime in the summer & "commute" on my ID90s NQY-LGW-NQY.....

Any info on car parking at NQY, which flights to avoid, etc etc would be greatly appreciated :O

GROUNDHOG

6th Mar 2003, 16:44

MV...
Recent FR flights I have seen have been with the -800...
I am not aware you can fly NQY - BRS but could easily be wrong about that.... as CF reports SERCO are taking over trhe running of NQY from 01st April. NQY also covers the City of Truro, Penzance and Falmouth. From Truro it should take 1 to 1.5 hours to reach Plymouth but this can be 3 to 4 hours when the caravans arrive from 'up country' and on some trips I have even turned round and given up - I cannot comment on South Hams as it is too far away!

Cyrano ... interesting about the name will keep an ear to the ground and report it anything heard.

stolport

6th Mar 2003, 16:52

Cyrano, so instead of a new Brymon Airways, maybe SHH are trying to re-start Air South West :) who started at Newquay as Newquay Air before moving to Exeter and Belfast as Air South West and then moving down the Devon Expressway to operate Bandits and a chieftain from Plymouth to Cork, Dublin and Manchester. The airline only survived about a year in Plymouth before ending all operations at about 1997.

I only ever saw one advert for Air South West's services in the local paper, the Evening Herald and I doubt that many people even new the airline operated from Plymouth. ASW once planned Stansted and Amsterdam routes using a shed. BA rarely advertise their services. This is unlike Air Wales who put adverts every day in the local paper and have offers such as £29 one way from Plymouth to Cork or Dublin which is one reason why the services should turn out to be a success and the ATR's should take over the routes from the current Avanti 1900's from the Summer schedules.

Flightrider

6th Mar 2003, 16:55

A few questions:

1) Does anyone know where Malcolm Naylor, former MD of Brymon and deputy MD of FlyBe is at the moment? He is apparently still at FlyBe but has disappeared off the face of the earth.

2) Does anyone know what the "major project" which FlyBe have been working on for several months is?

3) Is it any coincidence that the fleet to be spun off from BA is the Dash Eight, already operated by FlyBe and maintained by BEAS Exeter?

4) Is it any coincidence that some of the BA routes from Southampton are operated by Dash Eight, where FlyBe is starting a new hub?

5) FlyBe's core fleet appears to be concentrating around the 146 and Dash Q400. It also would not appear to be a coincidence that passenger volumes on the Exeter routes are the least likely to be able to withstand an upgrade from the Dash Eight 200 to the Q400. What are FlyBe's long term plans for those routes?

Answers on a postcard to Blue Peter, BBC Television Centre, London.

If one surmises that the answers to questions 1,2,3,4,5 are linked, then it doesn't take a huge leap of faith to think about a new regional airline based in the southwest picking up all of FlyBe and BA CitiExpress' Dash Eight 200/300s plus routes and combining them under management of Monsieur Naylor.

stolport

6th Mar 2003, 20:12

Flightrider, Malcolm Naylor now works for Sutton Harbour Holdings; see http://www.sutton-harbour.co.uk/docup/Sutton_-_Naylor.pdf

MerchantVenturer

6th Mar 2003, 21:03

Flightrider,

stolport's link could be grist to your mill, but is Mr Naylor working primarily on plans and support for Sutton Holdings' super airport at South Hams or for a new airline under the aegis of Sutton Holdings or both?

A scheduled network based on PLH, even with turbo equipment, would be a serious knock to EXT's hopes for more scheds, and would also have a marginal effect on BRS.

Oscar Duece

7th Mar 2003, 07:37

NQY To BRS is available with Ryanair. Little brother was flying home from Edi to Culdrose, with the Navy picking up the tab. Fed up with training the end of the route, tried out the nqy service.
The plane was as clean as an east end minicab, got to overhead nqy, but weather was bit foggy and the dog of a 732 had to divert to brs. Said brother got of plane to be told Cornwalls sort of that a way, good luck / goodbye.

Needless to say never again.:mad:

MerchantVenturer

7th Mar 2003, 10:23

Don't quite follow this one Oscar.

Do you mean your brother flew EDI-STN then caught the FR STN-NQY flight which was diverted to BRS?

There are certainly no scheduled FR BRS-NQY flights - FR only flies to DUB from BRS.

I wonder why your brother's flight did not put in at EXT which is 75 miles nearer to Newquay than BRS. Turn-up for the book actually, flights are usually diverted FROM BRS because of the early morning and late evening fog and mist that lives there for much of the year.

Oscar Duece

7th Mar 2003, 11:06

Yes via stn.

I just couldn't believe how dire their customer service was. Sorry weather, you'll have to get a train or something, find it yourself. Just no effort to do anything...

GROUNDHOG

7th Mar 2003, 21:30

Heard on Pirate FM today that tenders were being invited to look at the feasability of the new SW airport to replace PLY/BRS/EXT/NQY, so we are a long way down the road on that one then .... not!

I would have thought the proposed new airport in South Wales/Severn Estuary would be a more likely place to take traffic from Bristol.

Bring back Westward Airways Islander thats what I say......

MerchantVenturer

8th Mar 2003, 13:14

GROUNDHOG,

I agree with you about BRS, but I have never been aware that the South Hams proposal was intended to be a replacement for BRS.

Recently yet another idea for the old chestnut of a Severn Estuary airport (to replace BRS and CWL) has been submitted to the government by a group of businessmen and others. It is intended to be on the Welsh side near the new Severn Crossing. It won't see the light of day.

In the government's consultation document on the future of air transport is mention of a new major airport at Pilning, just north of Bristol on the English side of the Severn. Even the likelihood of this happening is virtually zero, because it depends on no further expansion in the south east airports.

In my view expansion of air services in the south west and south Wales will occur naturally at the current airports. It has to be remembered that at present BRS carries almost twice as many passengers as the combined total for CWL, EXT, PLH and NQY. So there is plenty of scope for the others to begin the catching up process without the need for further airports.

Fosters Expat

9th Mar 2003, 06:09

Welkyboy,

My apologies for posting whilst tired. Indeed my 20mins is for EXT-PLH, which indeed is breaking the legal speed limit, but can be done on a regular basis, and has been. Average time of 35mins when relaxed.

South Hams airport will never happen. As with the Seven Estuary airport, these sites impact on the local environment in such a big way, that the government will never be able to clear a project like the two mentioned above.

If South Hams were to get the go ahead, it would not compete with Bristol in any size, shape, or form. A journey time from Bristol (the centre) to Plymouth is knocking on two hours, for the same time, you can drive to LHR or BHX, and travel with real airlines, from a real airport. So forget BRS from the calculations.

South Hams can only compete for the current traffic using EXT or NQY, and that market is not huge by any means. Low-Costs will certainly increase the amount of passengers able to use air services, but people who live in that part of the world, rarely want to get out! Inbreds and all that........

FREQSEPARATOR

9th Mar 2003, 11:25

If the expansion of the the airports is allowed the grow naturally
, the words expansion and grow will not be the correct words to use, more like stagnate or close.

Bristol airport i believe is not part of the SHH new airport idea.
The new airport was only put forward because the governments
white paper basically asked the regions to put forward what they think the air transport needs are for the next 20-30 YEARS, I SAY AGAIN 20-30 YEARS.

As a region the south west has the highest passenger loss(that is more passengers leave this region to take flight from outside the region than any other region).

A new airport just outside Ply and the closure of EXT makes sense long term , for the following reasons;
1.The land it would be built on is designated for houses anyway,
and contrary to popular belief is not in the heart of the south hams.
2.PLY is resticted on its current site.
3.EXT is too close to London for flights to London(history proves that) and is too close to BRS to attract Low cost airlines and so
will only ever be a bucket spade airport.By closing the land could be used for housing.
4.BRS future is really tied with south wales. Maybe the severn esturay idea would be a good idea LONG TERM I SAY AGAIN we
are talking LONG TERM.

Right then thats what should happen. But now i'll give you my prediction on what will happen.

1. PLY will close within 5 years due to the viability of a airline operating turboprops on its current site and the fact that the local city council is so cash strapped it will not be able to help
out.
2.EXT will remain a bucket a spade airport, because Devon county council is run by Devonians ( ok stating the obivous) and they cannot think too far ahead.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS AIR TRANSPORT WILL REDUCE OR AT BEST
STAGNATE FOR THE SOUTH WEST REGION ,AND YOU WILL ALL
HAVE TO CONTINUE TO TRAVEL OUT OF THE AREA FOR A DESCENT
AIRPORT. 20- 30 YEARS DOWN THE LINE YOU WILL REGRET A
MISSED OPPORTUNITY.

Phantom99

9th Mar 2003, 12:46

MerchantVenturer,

Major reason for not diverting into Exeter is cost - extension charges are extortionate after closing time (despite airport effectively open to allow mail flights around midnight), which is about 5pm on weekends during Winter (from memory).

I have heard a Ryanair inbound NQY calling Exeter ops to request diversion, to be told airfield closing in 30 mins, you can land but not take off again...the a/c diverted to Southampton.

In the past when Bristol fogged out, Go a/c have landed at Exeter, but not let the passengers out because they would have to pay pax fees, so kept them in the cabin for 2 hrs before departing back to Bristol.

Past experience with a company trying to start scheduled services from Plymouth and Exeter to London City and the Channel Islands, resulted in a lot of people saying they might fly with us, but not much actual support from potential pax, airports or authorities.

MerchantVenturer

9th Mar 2003, 15:36

Phantom99,

Thanks for information re Exeter/diversions etc.

FREQSEPARATOR and Fosters Expat,

My earlier remark about the airports growing naturally meant exactly that: it may well be that growth at some of them will be negative growth that might indeed lead to closure of one or more.

Does the south west need four airports? In saying this I accept that many in Devon and Cornwall do not regard Bristol and its airport as being in the south west, but it is in the 'west country'. I will answer my own question and say that one airport is quite sufficient for Devon and Cornwall, not the current three.

For the south west/west as a region it is unfortunate in many ways that the major conurbation is at one end of that region. The obvious contender to be the one airport for Devon/Cornwall is Exeter but like Bristol in the region, Exeter is at the extreme end of the Devon/Cornwall sub region.

Geographically and economically it would be better for the Devon/Cornwall airport to be in the Plymouth area, but PLH can never meet the necessary requirements. That is why South Hams has been proposed but it will never come to pass.

So what are we left with? The three current airports and they will have to grow naturally and I point out again my definition of what I believe this means.

I agree that a Bristol/Cardiff airport would be a significant regional airport but like, South Hams, a Severnside airport will never happen.

So BRS, although on the wrong side of the city (away from the bouyant northern fringe, motorways and mainline railways) with a constricted site, short runway and weather problems, will continue as the major airport for the south west/west/ south Wales regions. It currently has 3.5 million annual pax with about sixty scheduled arrivals and the same number of departures each day, plus about fifty weekly winter charters and one hundred plus summer charters each week. There is room to almost double the size of the new terminal and also to extend the runway if there is the will. It is only noisy NIIMBYs in local villages that prevents the runway extension from happening.

Summary: ideal world - new airport for Devon/Cornwall; new airport for Bristol/Cardiff.

Summary: real world - status quo.

What a pity the political will is not present to develop Filton. It has motorways and mainline railways on its doorstep, a big site, decent size runway and is on the 'right' side of the city. Trouble is tens of thousands live under its westerly runway approach path.

GROUNDHOG

9th Mar 2003, 17:25

CandyBender - pleased to help with info required there is a private e mail in your in box ... or should be!

Fosters Expat

10th Mar 2003, 14:38

MerchantVenturer,

Could not agree with your more! Don't quite understand why you may have thought I did'nt initially?

You points are al valid, and acurate. What more could I say.......

Back To The Bunker!

MerchantVenturer

10th Mar 2003, 15:51

Fosters,

I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought we were at cross purposes over this topic. Sorry if I did so.

I was just amplifying my thinking and, as you and FRESEPARATOR had responded following my earlier post in this thread, I thought I would address my comments to you both.

Dixie Normus

10th Mar 2003, 23:20

Hi chaps,

From BBC Devon website today:

A new regional airline could soon be launched in Plymouth.
Sutton Harbour, owners of the city airport, have confirmed they are in talks with British Airways.

Neither company will say any more about what the talks involve, but it is thought Sutton Harbour will take over the running of BA's Dash-8 planes and launch a new service later this year.

The talks follow news last year that British Airways is to sell all its turbo-prop planes, including the Dash-8s, as it moves to an all-jet fleet.

That would mean pulling out of its service from Plymouth City and Newquay airports, which are too small for jets.

Business Welcome

BA has said it will be keeping the existing services, at least until 2005.

Reports say that the new airline could be called Air South West.

The new regional carrier would be run by Malcolm Naylor, a former managing director of Brymon Airways.

He joined Sutton Harbour in November as head of aviation strategy.

British Airways said: "We talk to many companies and airlines on a number of issues most of which come to nothing, hence our policy on not commenting unless there is something to say."

Gatwick 'Vital'

Devon and Cornwall Business Council (DCBC) said it would welcome Sutton Harbour taking over the planes.

However, a question mark remains over whether any new service would be able to retain the existing slots at Gatwick.

Business leaders say these slots are critical for the future economic success of the region.

DCBC chair Tim Jones said: "It is vital to the region and to the region's economy that we have links into an international hub such as Gatwick.

"We have very poor infrastructure in every other respect and we are not going to get the investment we need in rail or the roads, so we have to keep the air link."

Must admit, I was sceptical at first but hey...I'm getting used to being wrong all the time!

Cheers
Dixie