IMC Training

[Seat of my pants 99]

IMC Training

I’m about to do an IMC course a fellow flyer suggested that I do a 10 hr simulator course before training in the plane.

He’s theory is that most PPL’s take at least 25hrs to complete a IMC course so 10 hours of that could be done at half the price.

I would be interested to hear everyones thoughts. Can anyone recommend a sim school?

[Chilli Monster]

What total BS ;)

The time you take to complete the course will depend, as ever, on:

a) Your own ability; and

b) How often you can do the training - in this respect possibly more importantly than the PPL.

I did mine in 15 hours plus test, as have many other people I know.

My suggestion would be to do the course, plus back it up with any of the PC based radio aids tutors that are available (a damn sight cheaper than 10 hours in a sim).

Where are you thinking of doing it?

[AerBabe]

I'm sure sim training has its uses, but when has money been an issue in aviation? If it's about saving money then stay on the ground. You're never going to be able to recreate accurately the feel of how an aircraft really flies, unless you pay big bucks...
But I've not done much instrument flying, so feel free to tell me I'm wrong. ;)

[Leclairage]

Having recently completed an IMC course, I am not sure that Sim time would have helped.
But the one piece of advice I would offer is to make sure your IMC instructor has a full IR rating. i.e. that he fully understands the subject.

[DB6]

I wouldn't bother with the sim, get a copy of RANT (http://www.oddsoft.co.uk) and work through holds and ILS's etc. on the ground before you get near an aircraft.

[KCDW]

I'm starting my course in just over 2 weeks. It will be for 2 weeks intensive, as it's a holiday in the UK.

It's raining here in NYC, so I've been planted in front of Thom and Microsoft Simulator. I really do feel as if I am learning something here. My scan is improving to a point of being fairly instinctive. I'm not over-reacting with my control inputs as much as I did when I started out. I'm using the "rudder" a lot more for sensitive adjustments. You can easily set up a limited panel too.

Now I know in the real thing, the cockpit workload increases, there's real time stress to deal with, wind is more tempermental and gusty, and the blessed compass and VOR bounce around like nobodies business. But the point is, by practicing on MFS, I'm able to commit the routine activities to my sub-conscious, so hopefully when the time comes for the course, I can deal with the excess workload better.

Maybe a cheaper (as well as viable) option than using a fully fledged sim.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Is this a first? Somebody coming from the USA to do flying training in the UK?

G

[KCDW]

Sounds daft doesn't it. I'm a Brit on a contract out here - will be back in the Fall :). Don't see the point of doing an FAA IR, (cost even more to convert to JAA), and I'll never maintain it.

Just want to get myself ready for that marvelous British weather.

[englishal]

KCDW...you're mad :p

Seriously though, if you did the IR, you'd get the IMC rating for free [minus 64 quid of course], and once you have that you can maintain the FAAIR your self just by: holding, using navaids, and shooting at least 6 approaches every 6 months. If you go over the 6 months, you can't act as PIC in IMC until you have done them, but there's nothing to stop you going up with a buddy and doing this in VMC and re-validating.....[oactually as you now have the IMC, you can go into IMC in the UK]... and they've reduced the conversion to JAA to a min of 15 hrs, rather than the full JAA course....

Anyway, good luck whichever way you decide to go....

On the subject of Sims....they do have a use. It means you can carry out many different procedures in a shorter space of time, shoot approaches into airports you'd probably never go [ie. LHR] and freeze time so you can discuss with the instructor whats going on. Make sure its an approved sim though. I would suggest that a new instrument student shouldn't put too much emphasis on the sim though, nothing can replace the 'feeling' you get in the aircraft.

Cheers
EA:D

[Julian]

We used a sim a hell of a lot during my IR course to get the cockpit procedures sh1t hot and fly approach after approach so when it comes to the real thing you have everything clear in your mind and know what you are going to do. Its a case of £35/Hr Vs £120/Hr in the air!!

Do it, I spent a whole day on it once getting really beasted by my inctsructor and was absolutely knackered at the end of it, but the difference was incredible.

[imcaeros]

From my experience home pc sims are of limited value. IMC flying can be dangerous for the inexperienced, and there is no real substitute (short of a full motion sim) for getting up there and doing it.

On that point, I would recommend that you get an instructor that will actually take you into the clag - far too many IMC instructors like to stick you under the hood and only take you up on nice smooth VMC days. It is possible to gain your IMC rating without ever having truly flown in IMC. In this scenario, an inexperienced IMC pilot can very easily become overloaded and panic if he/she has to cope with some real weather.

Don't be put off though - my instructor took me up at night in the most crappy weather he could find, it was very hard work at first but I soon got used to it. For example one evening about 6 hours into the course, we where bouncing out of the zone when I was puzzled a number of radio calls from a VMC training detail requesting return to the field due to a puking student. My instructor told me he had heard the other instructor recommend that the PPL lesson be abandoned due to the turbulent conditions, but the student had insisted on giving it a try. I sudddenly realized that I was no longer phased by such conditions and I was actually quite comfortable - it put quite a smile on my face.

Another thing my 'git' of an instructor did was train me as much as possible to IR standards, e.g. if he was visual at 500' then he made me continue down to 200' before deciding. My straight and level had to be maintained to +50' -0 or I lost fingers! By the time I took the test, it seemed like a walk in the park, and I now pride myself on my ability to fly in IMC with a high degree of accuracy. I also achieved this in minimum hours.

Finally and most importantly - be prepared. Before each lesson make sure you have the relevant chapters from the book burned into your brain - if you don't fully understand the lesson then don't fly it. The best way of wasting money is to sit there in the aircraft not having a clue what you are supposed to be doing!!!!

[KCDW]

I'll report back during the course on whether my sim work was of any real value.

[Rod1]

A home pc sim will save you a lot of money. I did about 50 VOR/DME procedures on mine. Got in the aircraft and could just do it. I got through in 15 + test. The other guy who started with me took 23. I had PPL plus min hours to do IMC he had over 100. Same instructor, same aircraft, same weather. We did most of the training in real IMC, which was a huge help to the confidence when it came to using it for real.

[imcaeros]

Rod1,

Hi Rod1,

1. with all due respect there are other factors which may account for the difference in hours taken to complete the IMC course between yourself and your friend. To name but a few:

Age, natural learning ability, confidence in IMC, did he read the book as thoroughly as you? Like you, I did the IMC course with minimum PPL license issue hours + the required 10(?). At that point you are very much still in the "accurate flying, learning mode etc.". After 100 hours things often begin to slip a little - particularly if we have only done fair weather flying taking Auntie Mable on routes that we know intimately and are confident with.

Perhaps a good cost saver would be to make sure our basic PPL skills are up to scratch before we embark on the likes of IMC and Night Flying courses? What do you think?

2. While we all find it very difficult to do so, saving money should not be our primary motivation when assessing flight training. I think the whole PPL community needs to make more of an effort to consider "will I be able to keep myself alive now I have this little slip of paper that says I can now legally do X,Y, and Z" You (not you in person:-)) may be sorry you saved that few extra hours training when the instrument panel looks like it has gone hay-wire and your bottle has gone.

3. Yes - I will agree that Flight Sim etc. can be usefull for drilling procedures into your head, but I think that is pretty much where there usefullnes stops. They are just not real enough in terms of handling and response, and do nothing to help you develop discipline against dis-orientation in flight. Depending on how best each individual learns, almost if not the same level of learning procedures can be gained from simply committing them to memory from the book.

More professional simulators are expensive, and I think that from the costs I have seen, are only worth considering for multi engine work.

[C172Navigator]

I did my IMC two months ago. I used the Elite simulator at my club when the weather was too bad or to practice before doing new exercises in the air. I found it very useful, and completed in 15 hours. My instructor said most people he teaches are up to standard within the 15 hours since the club has had the sim.

I've just bought a copy of Elite for myself, to keep up to speed and practice for my IR. I know two ex instructors who are now flying for the airlines who practised at home with Elite. It's not cheap at about £320, but is very good, and only 1.5 hours of Seneca time.

[tmmorris]

I must be lucky, I think. I'd had plenty of fun playing with MS Flight Sim before my IMC course so I knew how the radio nav stuff worked, but my FTO has a static FNPT I simulator which I could use free of charge if I had paid in advance for the whole course, so I could do as many holds &c. as I wanted to without having to pay for the aeroplane time.

Test today: wish me luck...

Tim

[Rod1]

Imcaeros,

>>> Perhaps a good cost saver would be to make sure our basic PPL skills are up to scratch before we embark on the likes of IMC and Night Flying courses? What do you think?

Did IMC and Night ASAP after my PPL, both intensive courses in the UK. I found the MS sim gave me a completely clear picture of the numbers, and a very good feeling of situational awareness based on the numbers. It is useless for learning control in turbulence, but when you can control the aircraft accurately it can greatly reduce the cost and time required to learn the approach and tracking side.

Passed my IMC in 92, now have 750 hours TT of which about 100 are “real” IMC. I do not use it as hard as I did, as I do not enjoy it as much as I did. I also spend more time in French airspace these days so I cannot use it as much as I would sometimes like.

I was struggling to afford to fly in the way I wanted, so I either did the thing in the min or I gave up. You are right that spending extra money on training will improve peoples flying, but each case has to decide how much is sufficient for them.

There are two camps on the IMC issue. One says it is a get out of jail card, which should not be used for pre planed IFR, the other uses the qualification to the full. Some people train in real conditions, others use “foggles”. I have often wondered if there is a connection…