View Full Version : Barking Up The Wrong Tree?
19th Oct 2001, 12:19
If any one has an honest opinion please reply, I have an Aus ATP with the right to live and work in UK and Europe. I have 2700TT 1500 Multi and 2250 Command, with some SF340 time thrown in as well. What would my chances be of picking up some work in the UK or europe and will any company maybe sponsor me to convert my ATP to a JAA. Thanking anyone who replys very much
21st Oct 2001, 02:03
Go to http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/pld/pld_home.asp & then the e-mail link to Flight Crew Licensing. They should be able to advise you if it is feasible to convert your current licence to one recognised by the UK. Best of luck.
21st Oct 2001, 16:40
Sorry, no one will sponsor you for conversion, even before the down turn it would have been highly unlikely with your level of experience. As for converting yourself, big risk in the current climate, experienced pilots on the dole, it will take 2+ years for the unemployed guys here to get a job, never mind incomers, sorry!
Sorry Stooge - but this may make it any easier decison: do you have 25,000 pounds to convert your licence to a JAA one? Can you face the 26 weeks of ground school that will be necessary before you even see an aircraft only to be faced with probable unemployment at the end of it in the land of horrendous cost of living and interminable winter?
Stay where you are mate. It's bad everywhere at the moment.
22nd Oct 2001, 10:16
Sorry Stooge - but this may make it any easier decison: do you have 25,000 pounds to convert your licence to a JAA one?
If you have one of these crappy :) foreign ATPL's, with 500 hours as required crew in something that burns JetA, I thought you could get a JAA ATPL with just taking the quizzes and the flight test.
This used to be on the CAA web site FAQ's, but they've gone and changed the thing. It's even less use that it was before! I cannot find anything. Even a search for FAA in the search box comes up with SFA.
So although stooge doesn't tell us what his hours in type are, he might get a JAA ATPL without dropping £25 grand.
I guess he could even go do the ATPL flight test as part of the 737 type rating, so avoiding giving that nasty Ryanair 15 grand for the same. He would be ten grand up and could use it to buy us all a beer for the advice. None of that Aussie muck either, it's got to be warm and flat - though Stella would do quite nicely if push came to shove :)
That's unless the JAA/CAA cabal have gone and changed the rules again, which would be par for the course and totally in character.
[ 22 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
22nd Oct 2001, 14:04
As has been said, no one will sponsor you at the moment.
The only way to reduce the cost of "converting" your lic is to have 500 hours of 2 crew flying. If not, then you will have to do a full JAR IR as well as the 650 hour ground school for the JAR ATPL theory. Also, you then need to get the MCC as well. Note, you can't escape doing the 14 exams.
The present employment scenario is better than Australia, but not as good as it was 12 months ago. However, as with all downturns, an upturn will happen. Just when? I don't know.
24th Oct 2001, 13:38
Firstly I'd like to say - Hello to everybody as this is my first post.
Stooge I'm in the same boat but with less hours. I found this link through pprune to be the most clear cut information on the topic http://www.flyguide.co.uk/jaa1.htm
It seems to be a bit of a catch 22 from where I sit. If you do your licence in Europe where do you gain the experience that the Airlines want.... is instructing the only way? And on the other hand in Australia you can get experience (if you can get job) but there is only one large carrier. If you miss out there then you basically have no other options if you want to fly large machines.
Maybe you guys in Europe can answer this - After you get your licence and tick all the boxes what do you do? Here in Australia we pack the car up and go driving in search of a job (skydiving, cattlestations, glidertowing, instructing and so on). Some get lucky get a job and work their way up from machine to machine.
I can't afford to do all my training again! I'm willing to do the extra ground school + flight tests but spending 80k is out of control. Is 500 multicrew on a turboprop a law that allows people to to just sit the flight tests and groundschool?
What do you guys think?
24th Oct 2001, 15:11
In Europe, it is possible for a 250 hour pilot to get the "command" experience required by logging P1 u/s. That is, the sector that is "theirs" they log it as "command". The captain has to sign it as well.
In the UK there is very little "GA" as we know it. Most go and instruct, a few go to Africa and so on. With the current downturn most low houred guys will probably have to wait a while to get their start.
The 500 hours multi crew time is laid out in the JAR requirements for an ATPL. That is the only way the costs can be reduced. If you don't have that, then you must do the 650 hours groundschool + 14 exams. Then you must do the JAR Instrument rating. 55 hours worth, I believe you can get a 5 hour reduction.
If you have the multi crew (prefer multi pilot type hours, much less hassle ie FAR/JAR 25 a/c) hours it can go 2 ways. If you are in current flyiing and you have 500 hours or more on the type you are going to do the check ride in, then all you need to do is the check ride (encompasses an ILS and NDB) and you have your ATPL. If you are not in current flying, then you must do a JAR Type rating (In the country that you did the theory) on a 2 pilot aircraft + check ride. Note, both check rides must have a CAA examiner on board.
So, in summary re costs.
Medical £400 or £189 if you have an ATPL
Note, must be done at Gatwick.
Course £3600 or there abouts
Living expenses budget £100/week (6 months)
IR approx £13,000 to £15,000
Cheapest type rating I have found so far £8000.
25th Oct 2001, 04:21
So with the second scenario where you have 500 in an a/c requiring multicrew (and current) do you still have to do 14 exams only that being with out the 650 groundschool.
So what do most people do? Is the checkride and hey presto "here's your ATPL" a common thing?
It was puzzling me as I used to hear of guys from regionals in Oz going to Italy or UK and working there..
25th Oct 2001, 14:40
Remember now the rules have changed.... when that great migration happened it was under the UK CAA, now the rules are dictated (sort of) by the JAA. Validations are possible, but very rare. Any way, while you are learning a new aircraft/country/rules etc you have 12 months to do all 14 exams. No pressure.... :eek:
As I have posted in your other thread, the 650 hours can be reduced by the training organisation but where do they cut?
No one is immune from the 14 exams. Only people that are have over 1500 hours in command of 30tonne a/c and above in international operations.
Re the checkride, you must have the 500 hours 2 crew time on a 2 pilot aircraft before you can "just do that checkride". The check must be done in that aircraft or sim. After 6 months study I think it would be wise to brush up on the skills. (I am going to do that in Oz, much much cheaper).
Also, just having the 500 hours 2 crew is not enough, you must also have a total of 1500 hours, 100 night etc. Sound familiar?
All the rules and regs can be found on the CAA website.