Why most PPLs are not confident pilots - and probably shouldn't be!

[Whirlybird]

Flying and driving are not exactly alike, but mainly because flying is more difficult. However, let's assume for the moment that they are.

The average driver drives about 12,000 miles per year. In town he/she may average less than 5 mph, on the motorway more than 60. However, I find on a long cross-country drive that I average about 40mph. Therefore 12,000 miles probably equates to around 300 driving hours.

Now, let's compare that to private flying. Do ANY PPLs do 300 hours in a year? Probhably not. 100 hours is a lot, and that equates to 4000 driving miles. Most private pilots probably do around 50, ie like 2000 driving miles. Now, would you expect a driver who'd had his/her licence for 2-3 years, and only driven 6000 miles, to be either confident or competent? How long does it take to be a really confident and competent driver? I'd guess at 5 years, at least. That's equivalent to 1500 flying hours, which would take the average PPL 30 years!!!!

Then of course there are different conditions. Even after many years of driving, I used to find it difficult driving in London, since I lived in the country - London driving gave me a headache and left me tense and drained. Yet we expect small airfield trained PPLs to cope with full ATC and controlled airspace after one or two trips. Conversely, I recently accompanied a "low hours driver" who was only used to town driving, around the lanes near my home. Think of steeper than one-in-4 hills, sheer drops, sharp corners on hills, one track roads with no passing places. She was plain scared. She had never driven in such conditions. Yet a South-East PPL will plan a flying trip to Caernarfon....

It was many years before I went on a skid training course - and it taught me a lot. I've yet to drive on the continent, and I find the idea mildly daunting. Yet I've flown there, and admitted to being scared. And new PPLs ask about trips to France, and wonder if it's too much too soon.

I could go on, but you get the point. Is it any wonder that so many of us are nervous before going flying? We should be!!!! If we're not, should we perhaps ask ourselves if we're not like the 17 year old, just-passed-his-test driver, who thinks he's good, yet in reality knows so little? It'll be years before we strap on an aircraft the way many of us strap on a car, before flying becomes instinctive, before it takes very very little to overload us. So maybe we should be recognising this, and seeing it as a starting point. Because a problem has to be recognised before it can be solved.

"He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool - shun him.
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child - teach him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep - wake him.
He who knows, and knows that he knows, is a sage - follow him"

Not completely relevant, but it came to mind anyway.

[rotorboater]

The funny thing about the driving annolagy is that since I learned to fly, I now drive slightly differently and scan the instruments in the car a lot more and keep an eye on the t's & p's a lot more, at least I now never come close to running out pf petrol!

[Bodie]

rotorboater, I do the same thing! Somehow I think that scanning my dials and mirrors makes up for not flying that day :-)

Back to the thread:

Lets not become confused here: there is a difference in confidence and ability. People will spend longer in their cars, this does not equate to ability in any way. Bad habits and complacency spring to mind. I don't personally feel nervous when I drive - perhaps I should?

In terms of flying the reverse is true - if I don't feel nervous then something is wrong, I've forgotten or haven’t considered something. There should be x amount of things to have your mind on when flying, and the nerves beforehand are simply due to the "unknown" factor i.e. "Have I really considered everything I should have?". The day I stop thinking this is the day when I will forget something with possibly terrible consequences.

Here is a question for people - When you open the throttle on take-off, does your stomach turn over? even just a little?

I know mine does, especially so because of the short strip I fly out of. Have I done my weight and balance correctly? What about density altitude? Were my take off calculations correct? Of course, I know they are because I checked and triple checked beforehand, but this feeling of insecurity heightens my awareness so if anything were to go wrong I am feeling the right amount of stress to make me cope effectively.

should we perhaps ask ourselves if we're not like the 17 year old, just-passed-his-test driver, who thinks he's good, yet in reality knows so little?

PPL's with low hours (like me) will lack the experience, but they have to gain it from somewhere. Provided they have done everything beforehand and they don't take risks then why not fly to Caernarfon? Travelling is what they have trained for isn’t it? Everyone will feel fear at some point - I do and actually find it exhilarating. Not always - there have been occasions when my arse hole started playing up!

Like most things in flying it’s down to common sense.

Bodie

[High Wing Drifter]

A thought provoking line of enquiry Whirly.

Is being a good driver easier than being a good flyer? I suspect the answer is that there is probably not much in it. I would imagine that most Police drivers would be well above average flyers.

OK, so cars don't suddenly fall out of the sky if you get something wrong. But to be in complete control, pre-empt the intentions of the drivers around you, know who is behind you, know what type of surface you are on, see junctions before you are on them, position yourself on the road for maximum visibility and have the general sense of who knows you are there; is a considerable workload. I don't know about you lot, but I cannot hold a conversation and drive as well as I would like at the same time.

Flying requires a different level of concentration with more multi-tasking where each task does no generally require complete concentration at any one time. Hard but not by much - methinks.

To get to your main point Whirly; agreed, the average amount of time that PPLers fly does not seem conducive to complete competence. However, as difficult as ATC situations can be, it is more intimidation than incompetence that causes hiccups, after all one is being guided to a greater extent. These tricky situations, I imagine, generally manifest themselves at the begining and the end of flights rather than being en-route issues.

I have been rambling so much I have lost track of where this is going! I guess it is that generally it is difficult to get enough time to be truly competent but overall, complete mastery of both disciplines is not relatively easy from either perspective.

[bluskis]

Driving and flying are quite different, the only common factors being planes and cars have motors and you have to be grown up to get the licence for either.

Car driving requires little if any knowledge of the mechanics and dynamics of the machine, let alone the aerodynamics.

Weather conditions are of very little concern for the car driver in the UK for 90% of the days in a year.

Navigational errors in a car can be corrected by stopping and asking the way.

Arriving and parking in a crosswind has to my knowledge never been a problem.

Weight and balance is pretty irrelevent, even if indulging in cramming the maximum number of students into a mini.

Running out of fuel merely involves a long walk, perhaps in the rain.

Conflicting traffic is restricted to directly ahead or behind, or from the approaching side road, always reasonably well defined.

Difficult to exceed the structural limits of a car.

The only radio you have to operate is radio 2 or the CD player.

Driving is conducted on a well defined two dimensional plane.

It could go on and on and on.

Piloting requires you try to be disciplined from the moment you think about a flight, and make many judgements about all the above and more, relating them to your qualifications, legal sign ups, experience and recency and personal well being.

In running through all these thought and decision processes it should not be considered to be a lack of confidence, more a process after which you will be confident you have made the correct decision on whether to go or not.

[drauk]

In general it seems reasonable suggest that flying is harder than driving but...

Plenty of drivers have only had 10 or fewer hours of instruction, compared with a definite minimum of 45 for the pilot, not to mention the theory exams and an RT test. PPL Pilots tend to fly as a hobby, so they read quite a bit around the subject - how many people read about driving technique? (Car magazines are about cars, not driving.)

[QDMQDMQDM]

Whirly,

Anxiety is at epidemic proportions in our society and over-anxiety is often seen among pilots. It's a horrible, debilitating disease, a symptom of modern times. Don't stoke it even more.

If you're not reasonably confident of what you're doing, you probably shouldn't be flying. Many PPLs are confident and justifiably so, I think.

QDM

[Final 3 Greens]

Whirly

"He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool - shun him.
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child - teach him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep - wake him.
He who knows, and knows that he knows, is a sage - follow him"

I prefer Maslow's four levels of competence ....

Unconscious Incompetence
Conscious Incompetence
Conscious Competence
Unconscious Competence

It's therefore entirely possible for a 20 000 hr ATPL to be as dangerous as a rookie.

I prefer to think that we all have an envelope in which we can operate safely and that a PPL can be just as safe as an ATPL, but only if they stay well within their envelope.

Oh - I also think that flying is as close to driving as sex is to love!

[Flight Safety]

I've forgotten where I read this, though I believe it was FAA material on the FAA website.

I recall seeing a chart with a curve, that showed the accident rates of new pilots based on the number of hours flown. The left vertical axis had a scale of the number of accidents per 100,000 hours. The bottom horizontal axis had a scale of total hours flown by the pilots in the study. The curve went down from the upper left (low hours-high accident rates) towards the lower right (higher hours - lower accident rates), finally reaching a flat line of a low stabilized accident rate (I can't remember that rate now) at around 800 hours. As I remember, the curve was fairly flat from 600 to 800 hours, but was quite steep prior to 600 hours.

What my mind remembers most about the chart, was that a new pilot had to reach the 600 to 800 hour mark, before he/she could consider themselves experienced enough to be truely skilled and safe pilots. Prior to at least 600 hours, a lot of diligence is required on the part of the pilot, to make sure you stay within you'll level of competence to remain safe, while still developing and learning new skills. Even after learning new skills, you still have to gain enough experience using those skills, for them to become automatic and second nature to you.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Whirly,

I think your comparison is a bit crooked.

It will take about 3 hours of tuition to teach all but the most adept youngster to safely handle a car in a protected environment (training ground)

The rest of the 20 or 30 odd lessons that they need on average is needed to teach them how to cope with the rest of the traffic etc.

After that it takes a lot more time (as you state) before they can cope with the rest of the challenges of today's traffic.

I think that after the minimum syllabus of 45 hours most PPLs can safely cope with 80 percent of situations that they would encounter at any point in their career.

What would you prefer, just as a yardstick, go to France with a 5*45 hr average PPL aged 18 in a 172 or a similar experienced driver (hour wise).

FD

[Miserlou]

Perhaps one should actually be looking at the standard of training and how that has changed over the last thirty years or so.

Your older private pilots may not feel at home in the modern, busier aerodrome environment but their handling is probably of a higher standard than typically achieved of a more recently trained pilot.

This is probably due to two main factors.
1) The aircraft used for training are very easy to fly and do not exhibit many of those undesirable qualities such as adverse yaw, enthusiastic spin entry, ground loops.
2) The instructors are building hours to improve their own job prospects and have limited experience themselves.

How, otherwise, can you explain the number of stall/spin accidents?

This is THE FUNDAMENTAL RULE in flying an aeroplane.

[High Wing Drifter]

What my mind remembers most about the chart, was that a new pilot had to reach the 600 to 800 hour mark, before he/she could consider themselves experienced enough to be truely skilled and safe pilots.
Yeah, and I bet it is 600hrs/qtr not 600hrs gained over twelve years!

[Rattus]

Most pilots of my acquaintance are appalling drivers

Come to think of it, so are most drivers

Stick to flying - it's far safer - and a lot more fun

Rattus

Whirly - loved the "He who knows... etc" - may I pinch it?

[FlyingForFun]

Very interesting argument. My gut feeling is to try to say you're wrong, Whirly, as others have, but I wonder if I'm just trying to defend something from an emotional point of view while refusing to look at the figures you've given?

However, I really don't believe that you can compare the two quite as simplisticly as you have. Most people don't drive for recreation, they spend very little time thinking about or reading about driving when they're not doing it, and very little time practicing it unless they have to.

Compare this to flying. The Private Flying forum is one of the busiest on PPRuNe, and probably the one where we actually talk about flying (rather than pay+conditions, or industry take-overs, or how to pass exams) the most. We fly because we love to fly - we love talking about flying, we think about flying when we're on the bus (or driving down the motorway for that matter ;)) and we make time in our busy week to go flying when there's really no need to. When we get to the airfield, we will spend an hour or two doing circuits, or stalls (how many qualified drivers will spend even 10 minutes practicing reversing round a corner, or emergency stops?)

Without looking at accident figures, I don't think it's possible to say whether flying or driving is safer based solely on the amount of time we spend doing it. It's just not that simple.

FFF
----------------

[Rod1]

>>>Here is a question for people - When you open the throttle on take-off, does your stomach turn over? even just a little?

YES!

When I first started it was fear of the unknown. Now it is fear of the unknown, somewhat reduced due to 750 hours experience, plus hope the engine does not fail again! On balance I am probably more nervous after 750 hours than I was after 150 because I have a much better idea of all the things that have nearly gone wrong in the past.

Being scared helps keep you alive.

Rod

[Lt Manuel Hung]

What utter rubbish Whirly. With an attitude like that, how do you ever take off? If I didn't have confidence in my ability I would never leave the ground! If driving in London gives you a headache, how do you ever cope with flying? If anyone is scared while flying then they either require further training, or are unable to cope with the stress and should stop. I suspect (& hope) however that you are overstating the issue. As has been already stated, pilots are trained to a much higher standard than drivers. As stated above, it takes only a few hours to teach someone how to control a car safely, the rest is learning to survive the roads. Many people go solo with 10 or less hours of flying, the balance is learning to survive.

Being nervous however is another story. Anyone who isn't slightly nervous at take off (in particular) doesn't appreciate what they're doing. If you don't run through the "what if the engine fails at 50 feet" type scenarios every time then you will end up a smoking hole in the ground when it happens, becase you will be too busy being surprised to save your own neck.

A little nerves is good, and keeps you focused. Being scared will reduce your ability to cope with the unexpected, and that's what can kill you.

[sunday driver]

So is this a rational feeling, or is it irrational?

Went through a sort of crisis of confidence a couple of years ago - improved by sharing flying with a couple of others for a while. Thinking about it a bit, the fears were (are still) a thick layer of over-active imagination spread over a thin but well informed foundation of fact.

e.g.
I have spent many hours gazing at aeroplanes flying over and around me, but (fortunately) I've never seen one fall out of the sky, never seen one start trailing oily smoke or shed bits and pieces, or whatever.

I have spent many hours driving, and I have seen or happened upon some very unpleasant events (none of my doing so far).

I ought to be much more concerned about driving.

e.g.
Additionally (only try this at home) imagine closing your eyes for 5 seconds at any time while flying and now compare this with closing your eyes while driving and tell me which is the more dangerous activity.

This leads me to think my crisis was / is irrational.

Inboth activities, when the world turns to filth, it can happen in milliseconds. (Though to be fair, in flying, the unpleasantness can be extended for seconds, or sometimes tens of minutes, in inappropriate weather or enforced go-arounds or whatever).

The only significant difference I can think of is actually one of the key reasons I took up flying in the first place. In the car, if you get things wrong, you can generally get out and walk. Aviating, there's only one person going to get you down in one piece, and that's you. You have to take on complete responsibility, and that's a rare situation in life today - hence my / our crisis of confidence.

It's the sweet combination of pain and pleasure.

SD

[singaporegirl]

I think Whirly has a very valid point.

When most people (except maybe 17-year-old lads!) first pass their driving test they are still rather nervous about driving. I remember being a passenger with a friend who had just passed and it was excruciating - he was so slow and cautious about doing anything. But after passing their driving test most people get more experience relatively quickly, by borrowing their parents' car or getting their own. The point is that for most people, passing their driving test is a means to an end, ie getting around.

By comparison, for many private flyers the PPL is the end in itself. Of course, for those who go on to get a commercial licence it's just the means - but they're not the ones who are likely to lack confidence in their flying. For us humble low-hours PPLs, unless we are lucky enough to get into a group, buy an aircraft outright, or have plenty of dosh to spare, the expense continues, and - in the eyes of some - becomes less justifiable once you've achieved the goal of getting the licence in the first place. Just look at the thread on pilot drop-out rate if you want evidence of that.

Plus, as others have said, the problems with UK weather and crosswinds mean that you're much more restricted in terms of the days you can actually get up into the air. It's hardly surprising that it takes pilots longer than drivers to build up experience - and confidence.

[ETOPS773]

May I disagree...
Driving is nothing special at all,and you really have to be pretty stupid or unlucky to crash / get it wrong.If you stick to the speed limits,keep your eye on the road,and watch out for others,you`ll be fine.

Flying..IMHO a heck of alot easier than driving,no White Van Man or BMW "drivers" out there swerving and kerbing (fighting for whats right whilst trying to stay alive..vigilante!!...love that song :O)..as long as you plan your next move in advance and maintain situational awareness,you`ll be fine.

So..umm..sorry,I have to disagree on this one folks.If your not confident in yourself and self assured in your abilities, your more lifely to dither at a critical moment and get hurt...you should consider if flying is for you.

[big pistons forever]

As a pretty experienced instructor I think all pilots fall into two groups

1. Pilots who are better than they think, and

2. Pliots who think they are better than they really are

I think I am usually a group 1 pilot although I can say with authority when I got myself into tight spots I was usually acting like a group 2. In any case the group No 1 pilots will IMHO live longer. I should also add that flying hours are not an especially good indicator of ability. Some pilots have 5000 hours others have one hour 5000 times.

[Final 3 Greens]

Big Pistons

My neighbour, who is an 18,000 ATPL says 'know your capability envelope and stay well inside it.'

He also says 'the most inexperienced pilot can stay as safe as the most experienced if they apply this rule and develop their experience at a safe and sensible pace."

I agree with your post and it is nice to see something succint and useful.

[Fly Stimulator]

F3G,

I can see your neighbour's point, but people who stay too far inside their existing capability envelope are surely exactly the ones who end up with one hour 5,000 times.

John Farley has written some good stuff on how pilots can improve their flying and extend their capabilities and confidence by expanding their envelope of experience. To do that requires a little gentle pushing.

[flickoff]

And how pray do you know where your envolope ends if you do not get to the edges and teater on the brink?

Life's to short to whittle about trivia and do things that are unchallenging but frightening. If flying (a noncompulsory activity) scares you after a reasonable amount of experince at it, what the hell is the point of doing it? I'm not advocating the penis asbestos approach to flying but hells teeth, what happened to the pioneering spirit. Press on or forget it, take up golf or something.

[Flyin'Dutch']

FO wrote:

take up golf

Now, now no need to be that rude.

:eek:

FD :D

[kabz]

I think that it is mainly about attitude ... I had the usual attitude that I was a good driver after I passed my test and got a few miles under the wheels ...

However, I joined a big company and was sent to driver training ... this really changed my driving ... improving it beyond belief, though I am still inattentive sometimes ... we are regularly assessed with a 'commentary drive' and we have to demonstrate that we can talk and drive, and fully concentrate on traffic road conditions etc.

I strongly believe that with the right attitude and planning you can be a good pilot too. Know your limitations and if you haven't flown in a bit, pick a decent day, instead of launching into borderline conditions. Read everything you can about flying, and where possible try and fly (for fun) with a professional and current working pilot ... it should open your eyes to how it **should** be done.

[Chocks Wahay]

It is interesting that a lot of the nervous pilots & drivers seem to be female. Is it just a case of differing attitudes of the sexes?

FWIW I think it's important to be confident in your abilities or else it would be impossible to relax, but always remember that you are fallible and question every decision you make. We are trained to do just that after all.

[GroundBound]

Oh dear, I wonder what's wrong with me? Reading this thread, I don't seem to recognise anyone like me - but I can't, surely be alone?

Am I a better driver (40 years experience) than a pilot - I don't think so. Given the huge difference in hours I ought to be. Do I feel at ease in a car? Yes. Do I feel the same "easiness" in a plane? No, but I am not lacking confidence - just being very "aware" of what I am doing.

When I go out to the 'plane, I feel a little itchy, hoping I won't screw up - but maybe that's a little touch of adrenaline, in anticipation? However, once the noisy bit at the front starts, I relax. I concentrate on the checks, monitor the R/T, and when I open the throttle there's 6000ft of tarmac ahead of me (yeah, yeah, but that's just the way it is!).

Do I calculate my take-off distance? You gotta be kidding.
Do I do a weight and balance? Only if I know I am operating with full loads and full fuel - anything less of either is always within the envelope.
Do I worry about EFATO? No. If its below 300ft I can probably get down, if its above 500ft, there's nowhere to go outside the airfield. If its in-between, then it all depends on the day. Do I think about it? Yes, in calm moments away from the aircraft, and I go over in my mind what are the options. Does it make me nervous? No - if it did I wouldn't fly.

Do I worry about my nav.? Not really - its been OK up 'till now.
Does ATC frighten me? No, being an ex controller I actually welcome them :-)

Have I gone outside my experience? Not yet.
Am I trying to extend my experience? Yes, whenever I can.

Am I a confident pilot? Yes, but aware of my limitations.
Am I a competent pilot? Who knows, but probably yes, within reason, and within the limitations of my (low) hours.
Am I a frightened pilot? No, but I try to take care, do what I've been taught, and not do stupid things.

Am I wonderfully naive about flying, in my limited experience? No, I know things can go wrong, but I haven't (fortunately) experienced any.

Do I enjoy flying? You betcha, and its a darn sight better than driving! :D


Am I really so different to everyone else?

[Fly Stimulator]

GroundBound,

Excellent summary!

I'd be with you 100% if I hadn't gone slightly outside my experience at the time by suffering an EFATO early in my solo training, so let's call it 98% agreement ;)

I count things like first sea crossings, trips to new countries, first farm strips etc. as extending experience rather than going beyond it.

[Chocks Wahay]

> Am I really so different to everyone else?

Nope, pretty much the same as me, and most of the people I know.

I would reckon to be a better driver than pilot, but fallible at both. Having done many years of rallying I feel better equipped to cope with skids etc than I do to cope with an inadvertent spin at low level (for example). However, as I pilot I feel well enough trained to avoid the spinning in the first place (I'm not saying it'll never happen to me, but provided I don't make mistakes it shouldn't).

I get the same itchy feeling doing the walkround, but it disappears once I strap in.

4000ft of tar for me, so take-off distance is no issue two up in a PA28. Likewise EFATO - below 300ft I'll get back to the runway; 300-600ft I'm probably going for a swim (if we're on 28) or the football fields (if we're on 10), above that I'll work something out ....

I have made mistakes and frightened myself, but I lived to tell the tale. It did put me off briefly, so I confessed all to my instructor, and he pointed out that the training had kicked in and sorted the problem out, and I had learned enough not to do the same stupid thing again.

[pulse1]

As a 250 hour PPL who frequently feels nervous before a flight, I have found this comparison with motoring quite helpful.

I do far too much driving and the only times I feel any kind of similar nervousness is when I am about to drive in a different country or in particularly bad weather e.g. snow or fog.

I have realised that there are two kinds of nervousness.

The first is the base kind of nervousness which comes from partaking in an inherently high risk activity where you are placing your safety in your own hands. This applies to me in all flights, is IMHO a safe characteristic and, without it, I do not think I would find flying so attractive.

My main nervousness depends on how long since I have flown, the weather conditions and where I am going. In other words it depends on my perception of the risk of getting myself into trouble and making a fool of myself. I never feel this kind of nervousness on a return flight unless the conditions have changed for the worse. This kind of nervousness stops as soon as I start the engine.

[NORCA]

Perceived ability - perceived demand

[Whirlybird]

How satisfying to post something that you hope will get people thinking...and come back after 5 days away to find three pages of thinking! Maybe this forum is alive after all.

A number of people have posted on the similarities/differences between driving and flying. Of course, the analogy is imprecise - as all analogies are. But in both cases one has to operate a machine while navigating, doing several other things and considering other road/air users. Despite the fact that car drivers CAN stop, many people continue when they're tired, in poor conditions (ice, fog etc). And a number of people enjoy driving; I'm one of them. and look at the popularity of car magazines.
So I don't think they're all that different.

QDM thinks there's too much anxiety in our society, and I shouldn't add to it. Excuse me, are certain threads to be taboo now? And perhaps we should consider the differences between anxiety, fear, and nervousness, which are all being used somewhat interchangeably and imprecisely here.

This all led to some interesting thoughts on the use of nervousness before flying, and whether confidence is a good or bad thing. Well, a certain amount of confidence is necessary, but over-confidence can kill.

And the butterflies before flying? Useful, yes, but sometimes mine have amounted to a strong message NOT to go - and it's usually been just before the weather closed in. A very experienced instructor told me to go with those feelings.
And when as a newish PPL I went to the airfield, looked at the weather and chose not to fly, I remember a nearly qualified student implying that I was a wimp. Lots of things to consider here. And my 2000 hour instructor friend says that eventually the butterflies before flying do go, and mine have all but vanished now for local flights.

Hw do we judge our own ability? Especially if, as someone said, pilots are either better than they think, or think they're better than they are? Some people seem to be confusing confidence and ability.

BTW Manuel, I said I USED to get a headache driving in London. I did. So do many people from rural north Wales, who are more used to mountain and off road driving than finding their way to a series of appointments in a city which has different rules to driving in the rest of the country, and since I do 24,000 miles a year on our roads, I DO know about that. After a year or two of regular trips and 12 hour days on the road, I got used to it. And I seem to have no difficulty getting in an aircraft, as my bank manager will testify. Rubbish? I don't think so. Maybe you just didn't like my conclusions. I wonder why.

And I also wonder why so many posters feel it necessary to emphasise their confidence and ability so strongly. Didn't someone once say something about protesting too much?

Right, I'll check this out next week....;)

[Final 3 Greens]

Flight Stim

To re-iterate, my neighbours thinking is ... develop their experience at a safe and sensible pace.

As I understand it, he means stay well within the envelope, but develop the envelope.

So long as the relationship does not get too much out of balance, the pilot will remain safe.

Personally, I did a night rating, some instrument training some multi engine training and also started to fly abroad.

With regard to some 'pushing', I bellieve that you are correct and to extend this thinking a little, that making this judgement is one of the key skills of good instructors.

I'm not a flight instructor, but I do have a substantial amount of training/coaching experience in complex areas and getting the best from people usually involves some 'stretch', often creating slight stress in the short term, followed by increased capability, reduced stress and enhanced confidence in the medium.

Chocks Wahay

Maybe females (as a generalisation) are capable more easily of accepting and sharing emotions? (BTW I am male)

If you reference some of the human factors works (e.g. David Beatty), there seems to be some serious thinking that male 'machismo' can a dangerous factor, as it can remove the 'check and balance' of a (sensible) degree of caution in decision making and risk assessment.

Whether I am making a leap of faith here to extend the association, I don't honestly know, but I think it's worth considering.

Flickoff

And how pray do you know where your envolope ends if you do not get to the edges and teater on the brink?

Depends on your thinking on what "teetering on the edge" is.

For example, if someone went spinning for the first time without any instruction would you regard that as 'teetering on the edge?'

Or do you mean taking a considered decision to use your new IMC rating by yourself in real WX for the first time.

#1 would IMHO be very foolish and dangerous, #2 involves a severity/probability decision based on rational decision making and realistic self appraisal.

However, #1 would be sensible under the guidance of a capable instructor.

So, IMHO, you can explore the envelope with reasonable risk management, in a 'safe' environment.

Where it goes to pot is when workload outstrips capability and that is a personal profile for each of us to know and mitigate accordingly.

[John Farley]

Very well said Whirly

John

[Final 3 Greens]

Whirly

Hw do we judge our own ability?

I find that honest reflection on the things I do, plus using the same instructor over a number of years for refresher training, at least makes me feel comfortable with my own ability and limitations.

For example, I am told by my instructor that I am a safe and neat pilot, but I know that I suffer from laterality - e.g. have to think about east and west in my case, athough left and right is never troublesome.

Having occasionally reported to ATC that I was west when east and vice versa (and also having this brought to my attention during a check ride) makes me very careful to double check now.

But you have to be honest with yourself and accept your frailities.

[Fly Stimulator]

F3G,

...getting the best from people usually involves some 'stretch', often creating slight stress in the short term, followed by increased capability, reduced stress and enhanced confidence in the medium.


I think that that expresses what I'm driving at very well. Those who will not subject themselves to the stress which is often entailed in confronting new situations or extending previous experience tend to remain at the same level.

To draw an analogy other than the driving one, I have often seen this with people learning to ski. Those who take for granted that a few falls are all part of the learning experience progress quite fast; those who will do anything to avoid them will spend years on the learners' slopes in the characteristic defensive 'beginners crouch.'

I suppose we all make our own decisions about how far and for how long to keep 'pushing the envelope' until we're satisfied with the level we've reached.

I hope I've got a good few more years to go before I stop extending my flying skills. With skiing on the other hand, I've stopped pushing and am happy to stay within the envelope I've established over the years.


By the way, I think the east/west business is quite common - I'm sure I remember a whole thread about it here somewhere.

[flickoff]

Final 3 Greens, I agree totally, that to go into unknown parts of the flight envelope, whether personal or aircraft specific, without proper briefing/training/guidance or WHY relevant to the activity is fool hardy. I am not advocating an "It's sunny so I'll go and try a spin" approach, what I mean is that being stretched is a good thing, which it is not always possible to do with an instructor or other pilot on board, beacause in the absolute final analysis you can be reasonably sure that the other pilot is not just going to sit there and be killed!

Ones personal envelope might end, and therefore warrant a stretch, at say landing at a busy airfield and dealing with all the rt etc etc, or it might be that you are just a bit up tight about outside loops or tail slides. Whatever it is until you go there you do not know, and until you have been there you have not expanded your abilities. It might be that having been there you think never again; at least you will know where the edges are.

[Final 3 Greens]

Fly Stim/Flickoff

Thanks for your replies, which make some good points

It strikes me from reading your posts and thinking further that to try and define confidence as an absolute 'thing' is probably unhelpful.

If one is going to accept some need for 'stretch', then confidence will be relative to existing experience.

For example, I'm confident that I can fly x-country into an international airport with full ATC, but I am not confident that I can fly MEP due to lack of currency - EFATO would be marginal at the best.

Extending that thinking, then each of us will have an individual 'confidence' profile, against which we map out own own ability.

Depending on whether we are 'half empty' or 'half full' in our thinking, we will either feel very confident (within our envelope) or not so.

On reflection both attitudes are okay so long as applied in an appropriate manner.

Relating this thinking to my work experience, I would say that the personal development of both types (which I realise is a gross over simplification) can be either challenging or impressive depending on a raft of other factors. (Working on the 'soft side' is always very complex imho.)

When Whirly set the original thread title, perhaps the wording was interpreted as a little judgemental by some (who are relatively confident), possibly causing some of the robust replies which she now queries as 'he who denieth too much.'

There is nothing quite so persoanlly offensive as someone else making a dissonant judgement about an indivdual - pride etc. kicks in and emotions filter rationality.

BTW, this is not a dig at Whirly, as this thread is very valuable in my view and being confrontive about an issue is the best way to start a healthy debate.

[Whirlybird]

Final 3 Greens,

Fair comment about the thread title. I think I meant to start that kind of debate, though to be honest I was in a hurry at the time and didn't think it through all that much. Anyway, this has turned into rather a good thread, one way and another.

[hasell]

Hi,
IMHO ... its an indivdual thing...
As a new'ish PPL holder, I had nerves on my first post PPL flight.
Before I qualified I got nerves... so nothing much has changed just yet for me.
Do I get nervous on applying full power and rolling down the runway... well no, My mind is pre-occupied in holding a centreline and doing the checks.
Seems to me, there is an element of when things are undercontrol and when your ahead of your aircraft -thats when the mind starts to imagine stuff. I sure as heck dont have time to wonder all manner of disasters when cockpit workload is keeping me occupied.
Frequency of flying in my experience is another factor. The more often I went flying the more natural it all seemed. When I hadn't flown for extended periods (money, weather) ..thats when the nerves/anxiety are greatest.
Thats my 2p worth...
Regards.
H.

[Final 3 Greens]

Whirly

Anyway, this has turned into rather a good thread, one way and another.

It certainly has.

[ajsh]

The challenges associated with private flying in my view stem from the diverse – and consequently interesting – group of people the hobby attracts. As with any hobby in any leisure activity there will always be the polarised extremes.

While I understand the driving analogy I don’t think I necessarily agree with it. A well planned and executed trip from the SE to Caernarfon will greatly enhance a pilots experience and competence exponentially in relation to the actual time flown. Indeed, while I have acquired some 300 hours total time since taking up flying some 5 years ago – I have only added a night rating given that I preferred to spent my money on exploration trips to different airfields in different parts of the country. My experience of differing ATC and airfield operators and therefore my flying makes me a more experienced – but not necessarily a better – pilot than someone with the same hours but remained local.

My final thought is that this hobby is not unique. Prior to taking up flying I sailed both dinghies and yachts for fun, instruction and competition. The same arguments over experience over competency range in that arena too…

Flying well is, in my view, a mindset. Plan to fly to the best of your ability while thinking ahead makes it a pleasurable and exciting experience for all.