A night I will never forget!! PLease read

[ppruner2003]

Hi Guys and Gals,
This is not my first post on here, but have changed my username so as to avoid detection
The reason I am writing this post is to ask for a piece of advice. There has been something churning around inside my head for a couple of months now and half thought of posting a message on here to see what you all thought.

Anyway, I recently joined a new flying club after gaining my PPL. First impressions of the club were not good. I phoned them to see if it were possible to have a visit one day, and was told I could if I wanted to and “maybe there would be someone in…” – a little strange I thought – anyway it was more the attitude in his voice, like he could not care less whether I came down or not.

So I drove down to the flying club and there was no one about, so I waited for a while until eventually I saw one of their a/c coming down and parking. The instructor walked over and I greeted him and said I was interested in joining. He was not particularly interested either (which I later find out is more down to his personality rather than sheer rudeness!).

I left the flying club on a rather disappointing note. However, I gave it consideration and thought well, it is cheaper than the other and closer too. So I joined and paid the membership fee.

First person I flew with, for my checkout (PA38) was a CAA examiner, who seemed a little intimidating at first, but after a couple of flights, she was very good at pointing out airport procedures etc. I also have a Night Qualification in my license, so I thought it would be a good idea to be checked out on a different a/c, whilst flying at night i.e. kill two birds with one stone. The aircraft was a C172. I flew a brand new 172 a couple of months earlier, for about an hour and a half, and not all me in control, so was still fairly inexperienced with the a/c. Anyway down to the point of this post. I flew with a different instructor this time, as the original was not available.

The day came to go flying in the C172 at night. I was looking forward to it. I did the pre-flight and walk around before he arrived. He then arrived with the attitude like he really did not want to be there. This was confirmed to me later by someone else, so it was not just me. So the flight began and throughout the flight it was criticism after criticism!! “Why do you keep your hand on the throttle?” “Not enough aileron deflection on T/O!” There were more comments than that, but the worst came on landing. Baring in mind, the CAA examiner who I flew with three times before, said I was a very safe and competent pilot! So we came to the landing, my first in the aircraft and ok was fairly bumpy and to my astonishment, he started shouting! I believe his actual words were “What the hell are you doing?” A gust blew the a/c off the center line, but rather than let me compensate, he grabbed the controls and shouted the above. Immediately, my confidence was gone. He said throttle back up and do it again. Out of the remaining four landings, only one was decent. My confidence was shattered that night by one instructor who was in a bad mood and did not want to be doing what he was doing.
I have not flown since that night! And it was more than 8 weeks ago.

I have since spoken to a Training Captain of a large Commercial Airline and he agreed with me, that the instructor was wrong to do what he did.
Rather than help me, he criticized me!

I have since been to the flying club – while he was not there I must add – and again got a very cold reception – not welcoming at all. I do not find the place welcoming. I only feel it is full of big-headed people. I have been careful not to mention names nor places, as I believe it would be inappropriate. What I want to know is.. Would you stay or would you go? And would you speak to someone with regards to this so called flying instructor? This guy apparently has a FATPL and has been instructing for years. So who am I to speak about him? A PPL’r with TT 51 hours!! Should I sit quiet and get over it, or speak to someone about it. I am fairly confident I will not be renewing my membership with them, but any advice from anyone out there would be great.

My confidence has gone and after that night, just one guy made me feel like my whole career path may be the wrong one!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

M

P.S. I have been very unsure as to whether to post this topic or not. I did, as there might I feel be other people who have had similar experiences to myself.

[dirkdj]

Life is too short to remain in a bad flying club.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Some people are gits, doesn't matter how many hours they have.

For heaven's sake, don't ruminate on it. Just go somewhere else, get your confidence back and then let these people fade from your mind. It's not worth getting embroiled in a big hoo-ha with claim and counter-claim. If they're that bad they'll go out of business. Job done.

QDM

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't see anything actually dangerous or illegal here, just unpleasant and unprofessional. So reporting them to anybody I'm not sure will help much.

I'd walk away and leave them to it - go fly with somebody who cares both about good manners and professionalism. If the place was that quiet, then the odds are everybody else has already done so - market pressures will then either make them buck-up or close down.

Having said that, talking along the lines of "you blithering idiot why did you do that" is quite common amongst aviation professionals and I shouldn't let that in itself trouble you. Undesirable though this attitude may be, most full-timers would probably have simply carried on through that sort of feedback - there is much fault in not recognising you as a newly qualified pilot and treating you accordingly.

G

[Abbeville]

I agree with QDM x 3. Walk away!

However before you do publish a lat + long, or a bearing and distance, from a nearby beacon so that the spotlight can be brought to bear to see, whether or not, there is a history at this particular club of poor PR.

[Ludwig]

Hobbies are meant to be fun. Tell them to f*&^%&* off and go somewhere more friendly - there are loads out there. Maybe you have found out why they are cheaper than other clubs.

You could, for vengence, go up with the git instructor again and just at the point of flare stuff the nose down hard and take out the front of the a/c, and apologise " oh I thought you always took over at that point,, of course if you had been any good as an instructor you would have been ready for that!:D "

[Bodie]

Whilst your unknown to everyone, why not disclose the name of the club?

[Kingy]

Far too many new PPLs give up flying in the first few years, often due to bad experiences such as this. DON'T BE THE NEXT ONE .

Never go back to that rotten club again.

Look around for a good club - (I travelled 45 miles for my training even though there were much nearer options) You will get that 'warm' feeling when you find the right one.

Get flying ASAP or you will lose your confidence.

Consider joining a group - A good one can be marvellous and cheap too.

You are the holder of a JAR PPL - the most difficult and comprehensive private licence ever - you CAN Fly!

Kingy

[AerBabe]

Why are you even considering staying? It can't be to save money, as flying with people like that means more hours in the long run.
When you leave, why not write a polite, carefully-worded letter to the CFI. Don't be rude, just make it short and to the point. Consider getting someone to read it through before you send it! If other people have had problems there and no-one says anything, nothing will change.

[G SXTY]

Walk away, and find a club (and people) you are happy with. From the outset your instincts told you this wasn’t a good place, and cheap rates are pretty irrelevant if everything else is wrong. There are plenty enough good clubs around – you should never have to pay for poor or shoddy service.

And as for an instructor shouting at his student – how many times does it need saying? Berating and belittling students or losing one’s temper has absolutely no place in the cockpit. At best, it will leave the student flustered and unlikely to gain anything from the rest of the flight - worse, it could destroy someone’s confidence and put them off flying altogether – worst of all, it could lead them to make a fatal error.

I’ve had in-flight bo11ockings twice - once on the RT from an extremely patronising ATCO (a complete one off, in my experience) and once from an instructor who seemed prone to frustration when I struggled with tasks which must have seemed simple to him. Both incidents were in the later stages of PPL training, and I shrugged them off, chalking them up to experience. I can well imagine the effect on me though, if my hours or self-confidence had been lower.

This guy apparently has a FATPL and has been instructing for years.

And that might tell a story - why do you think he’s still instructing, and not sitting in a right hand seat of an airliner? Quite possibly because that kind of attitude is exposed by airlines through interview and psychometric testing - and they don't want to fly with him either.

[ppruner2003]

Thanks to all that have replied to my post so far. The message coming out seems clear - move on. I am sorry Bodie, but as much as I would like to, I would not reveal the name of the club, partly due to the fact that I am sure there are some nice people there, someone whom I know well is a member of the club. However, I do get the distinct impression that there are a few club issues between a lot of members, due to the fact that they recently had a commitee meeting (I was not there, due to working issues) and I don't think the meeting went well at all.
Aerbabe I might just do that thanks. But I will be precise and to the point. Like I said, in my original post, who am I to stand upto someone with a FATPL? But then on the other hand, if my Captain does something to turn my head left in the future, then yes it is necessary to say something. I don't believe what he did was dangerous, but what I feel is that for a split second, from the point he shouted to the point he grabbed the controls off me, that aircraft was not being controlled!! Quite scary when you think about it.
I have learnt a valuable lesson from this - always go on first impressions! Like G-SXTY said, my instincts told me it was not a good place.
I have a fair idea of who I will join when my membership runs out in the next couple of months. It is a flying club,a bit further away, but when I visited them orginally, they were welcoming, just a bit dearer! But I can handle that.
Thanks again for the posts and keep them coming, I am suprised at how many so soon.

I will update you

M

[Final, 3 Greens]

Ppruner2003

Don't take the experience too much to heart - you may have flown a beautiful circuit, lulling the guy into a false sense of security and then scared him a little with the bumpy landing - instructors are human too believe it or not :D

However, I not excusing what appears to be an inappropriate intervention and if any apology was not forthcoming for this aberation, then I would consider a change of flying club.

!just one guy made me feel like my whole career path may be the wrong one!

If you are going to make a career of flying you will be faced with frank feedback from time to time (as in any profession) and if delivered insensitively, this will hurt.

You need to able to be sure that you can handle the dissonance that this brings before handing over a lot of money for flight training.

On balance though, one bumpy landing at 51 hours and a snap from an instructor shouldn't dent your confidence .... it takes most of us a lot more time than this to perfect smooth landings during daylight!

[SteveR]

I still think you should tell us the name of the club.

Nothing you've said opens you up to legal action, and you have your anonymity, and WE NEED TO KNOW.

Steve R

[AerBabe]

am I to stand upto someone with a FATPL? No no no no no!!! A few letters before/after his name makes him no better than you. In fact, in my experience (and yours), it has the opposite effect (no offence PFLs/Evo ;) ).
Just think through anything you might say. Don't end up in the wrong by letting yourself get angry or upset. If you're going to talk to him, think of the possible replies he may have, and have a counter argument ready. However, I still think you should go to the CFI, AND the committee. Who knows, maybe they've had a complaint previously, but are unwilling to act on it based on one person's experiences. What do you have to lose?

[Tinstaafl]

Leave. And make damn sure you tell all & sundry there & elsewhere who they are & why you left.

[PFLsAgain]

I'd second the suggestion to write a carefully worded letter to the management of the club. I'm a committee member for my club, and I'd want to know if an instructor had treated a club member in this way.

As for the alphabet soup issue. It doesn't matter what qualifications the instructor has, you still have the right to express an opinion on their teaching ability and to have it politely heard and genuinely taken into account. Good teachers seek feedback from their students, take it onboard, and act on it. Bad ones don't.

[Bootlegger]

when i first started my ppl training, i initially thought the instructor
was rather abrupt...but then soon realised that he was just being
"to the point".....instead of saying "excuse me kind sir , would you please apply full power" (say on touch & go.......ours is one of shortest licenced rwys)..he would let you know in no uncertain terms that he wanted full power.....i quite enjoyed his colourful language at times and he turned out to be a fantastic instructor.

He never made me feel panicky..im sorry to hear your story.......go enjoy your flying somewhere else :)

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

Just leave! In the future somebody might ask you
" What do you think of flying club X?" and you just tell them what you think! The aviation community is very small and word of mouth spreads very quickly!

[andrewc]

Ppruner2003, you are the customer, paying £100-120/hr
for the use of an instructor and an aeroplane.

At a minimum, you should tell the CFI that you don't like
XXXX's attitude and that you don't want to fly with him
again...if the CFI doesn't respond appropriately or flannels
you then you should walk away from the club and tell
people why.

The instructor is a teacher, they have no right to treat
you in other than a professional fashion.

The major reason we get such $hit service in the UK
is that we are too *nice* to complain and make those
responsible aware that they are losing business because
of the attitude of their staff.

-- Andrew

[mjbow2]

2003.....

I am sorry you had to experience this kind of treatment. It is sad that time and time again these things happen in the GA flight training industry and the only person that suffers for it is the student (here-in called the 'consumer').

Kingy is right! You are no lower on the totum pole the Mr. ATPLF. The UK PPl is about the hardest in the world to get and you should be proud that youre a pilot who worked hard and paid a lot of money for the privilage.

I am an airline pilot who is still heavily involved in the GA training field. My business uses sims to give airline transition training etc. I give talks at airshows on how people can'expedite their flight training and get a flying job'. The Single biggest advise that I give EVERYONE, including my own customers (students) is that as the consumer you have the right to demand the best from your instructor. If the product your getting is substandard then you MUST tell him/her. If there is not an improvement to your satisfaction, then you have the obligation to take your hard earned money elsewhere.

Please, see youselve as a consumer. Would you stand for such treatment when buying a pair of jeans? Probably not. So why accept it when making, arguably the 2nd largest purchase of your life and possibly the most important purchase?

You, my friend are ten times the 'professional' that Mr.ATPLf is. Your reluctance to bad mouth the school is admirable and says a lot about your character.

The only way to improve the professionalism in the GA flight training industry is to DEMAND higher standards from your instructors and take your money else where when you dont get it.

Do every future student of Mr. ATPLf a favour! write down everything you didnt like about this brief encounter and tell this guy exactly why he doesnt deserve your business. If enough students just demand what you should have.......then he may change his ways if his livelyhood is at stake!


Head up 2003
please dont stop flying, we need guys like you in the sky!;)

[maggioneato]

It does'nt matter what qualifications he has, with an attitude like that he might as well not have any. Ask around and go somewhere else where your custom is wanted,you don't have to fly with morons with attitude.

[jayemm]

Try looking at it in purely financial terms.

GA isn't a cheap hobby, and every pound you can put together gives you flying time. Every hour at a rotten club, time with a poor instructor and let's face it, extended time on the ground, provides a leak to your hard earned flying cash through relearning and confidence rebuilding.

So, get flying again so you don't waste more money on relearning and re-establishing confidence, and pay that little bit more at a quality club, learn more quickly and get more enjoyable flying for your money.

;)

[Barney_Gumble]

PPRuNer2003

Well everyone above has said it all very well. Just another voice from me to add to the wave of support you are getting.....walk away, but worth writing a letter to the club explaining why you left. Then in the memory bin and no further action.

IMHO probably best not to post any indication implicit or explicit as to the identity of the club on the forum pages since whilst your anonymity is assured Danny's and PPRuNe isn't and, although I am sure no action would be taken, there is the outside possibility that a case could be mounted against PPRuNe for not taking action when a user of the site posted some statements etc etc.

Don't everyone jump on me saying that this is not possible etc etc etc, even if it a weak case, best not to go there; don't let them occupy any more valuable life minutes.

I wouldn't mind knowing though because I am nosey but private e-mail address might be a better vehicle.

Regards

Barney

P.S. Also mjbow2 gets my vote, don't stop flying :)

[MLS-12D]

I am not an instructor, and I have little patience with know-alls who look down on pilots because they are "only" PPLs or lowtimers.

However, in reading the original post I wonder whether anything so terrible happened here. It sounds like the instructor became alarmed as the aircraft began drifting off the runway, and took prompt action to correct what he perceived as a potentially dangerous situation. Certainly his language was unfortunate, but who among us has not said something stupid from time to time.

I do not mean to excuse the instructor's language, or his apparent reluctance to be flying that night (after all, he was being paid), but it doesn't sound to me that he did anything that was all that dreadful. After all, he was flying with a novice pilot that he didn't know, and as pilot-in-command he retained the right to take the controls whenever in doubt.

At the risk of 'blaming the victim', I'd suggest that the proper course in this scenario would have been to cease the checkout flight and have a polite but firm chat with the instructor. Only if that failed to result in a better environment would I abandon the club for greener pastures.

ppruner2003, sounds like you may need to develop a somewhat thicker skin, and a more assertive attitude (I agree with everyone who says that it doesn't matter what the instructor's qualications may be). It is possible to be assertive without being aggressive.

MLS-12D

P.S. I concede fully that I wasn't there, and I don't know the personalities involved or the club's culture. I could be all wrong, but my post is just based upon the limited information supplied in ppruner2003's original post.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Indeed - vote with your feet

I instruct. What the guy did was unforgiveable, instructing is a confidence building exercise.

Sometimes instructing can be very hard work, there are days when you dont want to be there - just like any job. People say "well go do something else then " but its never that straightforward.

Im glad somebody above made the distinction about some instructors not necessarily coming across all nice nicey all the time. Instructors can be blunt and if you do have an instructor who is being blunt then sometimes (and I know this might sound wierd) you should consider taking it as a compliment.

Sometimes blunt instructors are being that way because there is a great pilot who we know is lurking in there - desperate to get out - and defeat keeps getting snatched from the jaws of victory. This person is the more frustrating student than the 25 hour student who hasn't gone solo!

Leave now - name the Airfield if not the club and dont let some numpty put you off a career in aviation.

[rustle]

Jeez, glad they banned hanging in this country some time ago.

One post and the school's crap and the instructor's a bastard.

If you had read this in the papers you would have been all up-in-arms about it.

Unbe-'ken-lievable :rolleyes:

[Bootlegger]

;) you're not the said instructor are you ?? ( joke ) ;)

[rustle]

Bootlegger

Nope - not guilty - but I have been known to utter the odd profanity when things aren't quite as I, erm, expected :D
(Well hush my mouth :eek: )

[AC-DC]

PPRUNER 2003

Been there done it got the 'T' sh**t. Don't stay walk away, even don't tell them why, just forget about them. Go where you are wanted and where people want to help you to become better. Don't let one idiot destroy you.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Whilst your unknown to everyone, why not disclose the name of the club?

I'm not saying he shouldn't -- that's up to him -- but no-one should ever be under the illusion that posting anonymously on these forums guarantees anonymity. I used to run a forum a bit like this with a lot of scope for libel accusations and it is extremely easy to trace 'anonymous' posters. We did it many times.

Personally, if I ran this forum I'd delete all potentially libellous posts and warn off the poster. Too much hassle otherwise. It's different in the US, but in the UK libel is a real issue, even on the Internet and especially in such an influential forum such as this.

QDM

[ppruner2003]

Once again thank you to everyone for all your posts. I am at work at the moment and so will have to be fairly quick. the message coming out here is clear. LEAVE. I am not going to 'out' the club nor the name of the instructor or the airfield (as this is only one club at the airfield - nice try though). I do not want any trouble for myself, pprune or the club. There are a few decent people there after all, but its the atmosphere as a whole, which I do not like. I have to agree with Rustle, there are a few nice people there, so the club is not crap, perhaps just not managed by the right people. MLS-12D, perhaps you are right, I need a tougher skin. I do not mind criticism, as long as it is constructive and he certainly was not that.

I cannot believe all the posts I have had on this. Keep them coming.

I am determined to become an airline pilot and am currently in the selection process for CTC (re wannabe forum). Giving it the best damn shot I have give anything in my life.

Cheers to you all

M

[Dusty_B]

One of the biggest regrets of my flying career was not having the balls to report a serious 'cross cockpit gradient' that existed between myself and an instructor.

[EDITED: If you haven't read it by now, too late... this was for PPruner2003's benefit. The content of this text made myself and the other party identifable by our mutual aquainances - so it is time to hide again ;)]

Approach the CFI or Boss and explain the situation and/or write a letter. It doesn't have to be written in terms that the chap will lose his job, but you should say that you feel uncomfortable with that particular instructor. You can separately explain that you have been unimpressed with the club as a whole...

[MLS-12D]

ppruner2003,

Good for you; you have taken my criticism in the constructive sense that it was intended, so I am perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the instructor's remarks were way over the top.

Keep your chin up!

MLS-12D

[M14P]

As someone with experience as an instructor and in both seats of an airliner I feel that I can comment on the phenomenon you describe:

Your instructor - quite simply - lacks the confidence in his own abilities to be a good instructor. He was 'frightened' not because you attempt at landing was particularly bad but because it came very close to what he understood to be the edges of his personal envelope.

Sadly, if he is incapable of dealing with what seems like a very mild error then he lacks the skills to teach.

You must make mistakes in order to learn; he must allow those mistakes to develop to a point where some teaching value is obvious; he must be able to recover the situation in a way which allows you to move forwards in your learing process.

This lack of confidence is prevalent throughout 'professional aviation' - bear this in mind and find yourself a good instructor (someone committed to EDUCATING you).

Please continue enjoying flying - good luck!

[Dewdrop]

I think I've flown with this instructor. Guys with this kind of temprements do not make good pilots.

[ppruner2003]

Cheers MLS-12D. I am pretty sure which flying club I have decided on, now that I am going to leave at the end of March. I visited this flying club when, as well as the one I am a member of at the moment, and they seemed very welcoming and friendly. Plus they have a very big unused (well excpet for the firemen) 747 beside the club, which is fairly interesting. Might give some of you a clue to where I am ;)
Anyway thanks for the constructive advice. I am eager to get up flying again, especially with a new instructor. I have thought about the letter to the CFI and then thought about something quite interesting. If I was leaving the club so soon after joining, would it not be the responsibility of the CFI to find out why I am not renewing my membership? I know if I was the CFI and was interested in maintaining members at the club, then I would want to know.

All of your posts are very individual to yourselves, but all display the same key message to find somewhere else.

I do find it a shame that this does seem to be a regular occurence! I think people should start to think of themselves as a consumer more than anything else. At the end of the day, we are paying the money to the flying club.

Anyway cheers for now

M

[Monocock]

Surely the answer is simple....

If you are REALLY annoyed at the whole situation why not just wait for a spell of really good wx before a serious low sets in, hire the aircraft for four hours, fly it at least 300 miles away, park up, phone the club and tell them you've lost your bottle at the controls and get a train home.

I know somone who did it for genuine reasons and it gave a nightmare to the club to get it home a few days later after the wx had cleared.

[Hairyplane]

Hi PPruner2003,

Hmmmmm.

I am not sure about this.

You seem really keen not to disclose the name of the club and have even changed your name. Are you fearful that somebody might post something that hurts your feelings?

Have you given us the full facts?

Is it possible - just possible - that you might have screwed up and this guy did you - and the aircraft owner(!) a favour?

It strikes me that any landing scary enough to cause an instructor to grab the stick would have prompted the instructor in the debrief to recommend some further training?

Did he do this? If not - what reasons exactly did he give?

He hadn't flown with you before(?) so didn't know how competent you were. He saw a departure, you knew you were able to sort it..he isn't telepathic - he is there to conduct a safe flying lesson.

As a (long-since) lapsed AFI I flew with some pretty good pilots who sometimes had a bad day. We are all human.

Heres another suggestion, from an old f@rty with 27 years flying experience -

The club is quite convenient to you - you like some (and the word some gives a little indication of your personality here?) of the people. You were presumably attracted to the club in the first place for reasons sufficent enough to join.

Why not tackle this full on instead of sulking about it and gathering allies on this thread by maybe (I say maybe??) not presenting the full facts.

Simply tackle the instructor face-on and say - 'I clearly screwed up the other night. My problem is - I wasn't aware of a problem until you decided to take control. Thinking about it afterwards, I still don't think my flying warranted your grabbing the stick. Can we do some crosswind circuits? My confidence has suffered through this, I need to sort it in my own mind.'

In my experience, the humble approach will pay dividends. He may turn out to be your best mate.

I have heard many stories about grabbing the stick. I have done it myself.

A very very good mate of mine - highly competent pilot - was about to screw up a landing a couple of years ago. In my opinion - there was a high risk of a runway departure/ collision with the edge markers. I said to him calmly - 'I have', sorted it and handed it back to him in seconds.

What did he do when we taxied in?

I tell you what he didn't do. He didn't get the sulks and wasn't offended. He thanked me for it. His wife and kids in the back - no headsets were being worn by them) knew nothing about it.

Conversely, a good mate of mine - an ATCO not far from me and a really competent, current pilot - grabbed the stick from a private owner in the certainty that the approach into his short strip was about to result in an accident. This was compounded by the fact that the guy in question is getting on a bit and had just recovered from a serious illness so wasn't current and wasn't - on that day - on the case.

What happened then? A wrestling match in the cockpit and a major upset on the ground - followed by a few uneasy weeks after that.

Having the stick grabbed from you can be upsetting.

However - 'you are as good as you are on the day'.

Search your soul here - ask youself some questions - take a deep breath and get back to your club with a fresh approach.

Make every effort to put this behind you.

You will fly better as a consequence.

The other option is to continue to mither about it - cause a bad atmosphere in the club and cause yourself inconvenience if you do decide to move on.

Your call.

HP

[Charlie32]

I'm not sure that you should always judge on first impressions. It may be that there are other instructors within the club that you can establish a good relationship. You mention that you have a friend in the club and that imply that there is general disatisfaction. You could talk to your friend and see if there is anything that can be done to improve the club. If it is your local club then it might be worth trying to see if you and your friend can imoprove matters. Depending upon whether the flying scholl is run on a proprietorial basis, or by committee you should consider making your feelings known to either the owner, or the chairman. It has to be in their interests to address your concerns, if they want a successful club.

[FaPoGai]

ppruner 2003

Sorry to hear your all to familiar tale. As most of the respondents advise,go elswhere.

Same thing happened to me in the late 1960's. 18000hrs later I am still in there. It's probably too late to say who it was, but they are still out there believing that they are doing you a favour by taking your money and b-------g you about.

Don't let it spoil your fun, change club.
Rgds. FPG.

[eyeinthesky]

Exactly. Vote with your wallet and let them know why you are doing so. The individuals concerned will probably be safe in their opinion that you were an idiot anyway, but they're still £10/hour or whatever worse off.

(I don't mean you are an idiot! If they have the attitude you describe, THEY probably think everybody else is one and nothing will change that!)

[Whirlybird]

I encountered an instructor similar to this very early on in my PPL(A) training. It destroyed my confidence for a very long time, and I would probably have given up if "give up" had been words in my vocabulary, but I'm too stubborn for that. So I changed instructors, managed to carry on, eventually got my PPL. Then he did something similar to another student, who phoned me and said he was giving up flying. This guy wrote to both the club (who I know did nothing) and to the CAA. Belatedly, more angry on his behalf than I had been on my own, I decided to write to the CAA too, since if no-one says anything, nothing ever gets done. I knew several instructors who though he shouldn't be instructing, yet he still is, even now, several years later. Perhaps it's the same guy. ppruner 2003, if you want to send me a pm with his name.... But that's up to you. I'm not going to tell you if you should take it further. But you should definitely find another club. I don't know why, but while learning to fly takes around 45-70 hours approx, developing confidence when flying takes much much longer. Newish pilots tend to be very vulnerable. To those who think you over-reacted, in my experience such reactions are normal - well, common anyway - among low hours pilots...and some who've been flying a long while too. As has been said before, you are the paying customer, and a qualified pilot; you owe it to yourself to go somewhere where you will be respected. As to whether you owe it to the rest of the flying community and future students to report this guy...personally I would, to both the club and the CAA, but that's up to you.

Good luck, hang in there, and enjoy your flying! That last is an order!!!!!!!! :)

[Wee Ali]

Oh dear, Wee Pal..I think I'd be very pissed off too & I wouldn't be surprised if other people leave with you in March. Not a good way to treat new members!
Can I suggest you put it all down in writing & give it to a member of the Committee to be read out at the next Committee Meeting, you can even ask that your name is not revealed if you are worried about repercussions. I do think, though, that people need to know what is going on, eh?Please?
:(
Also, I believe there is an AGM coming up, why not air your views, either in person or by letter ?
It's a shame things haven't worked out, but maybe your experience will go some way to changing things. I truly hope so!
I have been there too. It wasn't nice. But, please,please whatever you do, do not let that seed of doubt be planted or it will grow & next thing you know your dream of being a pilot will be pushed further & further away & you will convince yourself you couldn't have done it & give up.Believe me I know!
Get back flying again,wherever it is,remember how enthusiastic you felt when you started flying & try & get that back (not easy, I know after the s*** has hit the fan, but not impossible).And think of all the great experiences you are still going to have, all the great places you are going to fly to & all the flying peeps you are still to meet & talk all kinds of flying c**p to that only we can understand!

Best wishes & good luck ,Alison ;)

[MLS-12D]

A good link: http://www.avweb.com/news/avtraining/182019-1.html

[Whirlybird]

Thought provoking read.:ok: Many thanks for posting the link.

[MLS-12D]

If I post another link on this thread, I will probably be accused of hating all instructors (not true!), but anyway here goes: http://avstop.com/Stories/big.html

[Miss Bigglesworth]

Please don't let it knock your confidence. I had a similar experience on a bfr in Florida. My biggest regret is that I let it eat away at me and I refused to get back in a plane for the next 9 months. Thank god I eventually did. It took just one person to nearly ruin the one hobby I had strived for and worked hard for. How dare he?!!
There are quite a number of tossers out there. Just bin the club and find another. Put it down to experience, you'll eventually regain your confidence.

[Wolram]

Hi Pprune2003
This sounds bad , but maybe what happened to me
is just as bad with a very vague instructor - i never knew
what excercises we were going to , no continuity , no
student records I could go on ! - So I told them straight
and went elswhere .

I would suggest you MUST tell them if at an AGM ,so much
the better - be polite and to the point . (type out some
notes ) then stand ,speak up , shut up and sit down .
I think you'll find your approached and asked not leave!!

In life there are times YOU must speak up , otherwise
you'll get to my age and regret it !!

Best of Luck

W

[ianhogg]

As an instructor at the smaller end of things two points spring to mind. Teaching people to fly can be the most rewarding job in the teaching profession there is. Think about it ,one to one with a supremely motivated individual who really wants to enjoy his or her flying(Im not talking about training the bus drivers as that is a more mundane existance) to the extent that they are parting with their own hard earned cash to do it. As instructors we must never lose sight of the fact that we are a branch of the leasure industry and at least part of the job is to ensure that the student leaves the airfield each day with their tail up and feeling that they have learned somthing and enjoyed doing it.
From the 1960's my family ran a large pony trekking site in the lakes and recruted about 10 trekk leaders every summer. It was an education to see the number of technically proficient qualified people who were absolutly c**p at relating to there fellow human
beings apart from in a condicending "I know all about this and you don't" sort of way.
A few of these Gorgons younger brothers who obviously couldn't get into the airforce gravitated into flying schools where they can feed a sad little ego by bolloking students and making them feel small.
My advice , take your check book else where but first tell the instructor s C.F.I why, and if he or she does not at least try to keep you with the club I would tell the said instructor to his face that he is a rubbish communicator and should take up a more fitting career like gassing badgers where his head firmly inserted between the cheeks of his arse would at least keep the gass at bay.
Remember a man who cannot change his mind hasn't got one
pip pip ianH