OXFORD BAD FOR SELF SPONSORED?

[BIRGIL27]

Has anyone gone through Oxford as a self sponsored and found that they are put second to Airline kids?

[EGDR]

Cripes ! The airlines are sending kids for training !

[tailscrape]

OATS will always raise a debate about this question. . .. .Do a search and find out.. .. .But in my case, no I was never treated second best. They were excellent and I enjoyed it.. .. .More importantly I got a really good job.

[The Boy Lard]

CX. .. .I'm presently at OATS and self sponsored.. .. .In answer to your question its not really an issue as the modular school is run seperately from the Intergrated school. It is possible to feel that you arent getting the same treatment but in reality its not the case, we get the same top quality instructors and facilities as everyone else. . .. .As far as I am concerned I am second to no-one at Oxford and should you ever feel that you are getting short shrift all you have to do is ask and ye shall receive.. .. .Hope this clears it for you.. .. .Maybe see you there.. .. .All the best. .. .TBL

[easondown]

Tailscrape,. .. .You didn't get a "really good job" just because you went to Oxford - surely you must have some other qualities ?

[meerkats revenge]

The Boy Lard is quite right. It's up to you to manage your own progress when you've paid a shed load of cash as you have (or will). .. .They are pretty crap at post course help finding a job though (despite reassurances), would be my only gripe having finished a year ago - unless of course you have golden boll***s and pass everything first time

[salapilot]

Sorry when I was there it was simply the case of sponsored student getting priority. This wasn't just me and I can promise you a number of students had made complaints. Take everything they say with a pinch of salt. I did have some great moments and no doubt there are superb staff to help you, but the management are just after your life savings and dont give a damn if you get a job !. .. .sp

[oxford blue]

Salapilot, with the most utmost respect, I think that you may be wrong. It is true that Oxford prioritise, but not necessarily in favour of the big boys.. .. .What happens is that all flying training which is weather-dependent slips, because of the bl**dy British weather. Which means that management has to prioritise when time deadlines are slipping.. .. .Usually this favours the big boys, because Oxford (reasonably enough) prioritise to meet these customers who have deadlines to meet. In the case of BA, bmi or Aer Lingus, there is usually an MCC or a JOC course already pre-booked. So they try to get the lads and lasses out in time to meet the deadline.. .. .It is less common to find a self-sponsored student who has a deadline to meet, though it happens occasionally. I promise you, I have seen occasions when a self-sponsored student has had a deadline to meet - he/she has to be out on a certain date. When that happens (which is rare), that student's needs are given just as much priorities as an airline's.. .. .It just doesn't happen as often, so it doesn't get reported on pprune so often.. .. .OK, I'm an instructor at Oxford. I'm biassed. I WILL give you the best slant on it. Take all that into consideration when reading this post.. .. .But read it in context of all the other students posting here.. .. .I've always said that if all Oxford had to take was the testimony of REAL past students, they wouldn't have a problem.. .. .The bad news always comes from people who haven't been there.. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 14:24: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</small>

[salapilot]

Like I said the staff were great and I flew with some great instructors. I'm not knocking the quality of the course, but when I was there Oats bit off more than they could chew!. .. .We had all the sponsored courses which included. .BA (at least 4 courses). .BM (2). .Aer Lingus. .SAS. .Algerian Airforce(Lost count on how many were there. .And many more.... .. .Now when you add all that up with the amount of aircraft ,I'm sorry but the sponsored students always got priorty.. .. .It wasn't to bad when it was on singles ,but my god the twin flying was a nightmare. .I had to(as well as others) wait 6 weeks to get on to the twins.Did the sponsored students... no.. .. .My IR was cancelled on 4 ocassions because sponsored students had there's first. One of the excuses used was a BA cadet had to go and get a uniform fitted.. .. .I could give you many more examples as I'm sure others could. I'm sure that things have changed at the expense of loosing some contracts. I bet if you were to go up to management and see how many pi$$ed of customers are on record you will be surprised, not to mention the number of court cases that have taken place. Do you hear about that... no cos it's not in the interest of the school. . .. .When an individual and families are spending vasts amount of money they should be treated just as well as any BA cadet. Can you honestly say that we didn't have deadlines. Some of us budgeted to finish at certain times and didn't have the luxury of a big company paying if you ran slightly over. This isn't sour grapes just pointing out a few facts. I've tried to be objective and have refelected on my time at Oxford. The conculsion in my humble opinion is that OATS will always look after there big contracts at the expense of the poor bu**er who's skimped and saved to follow there dreams.. .The ground school and the flying instructors hands were tied by management and I have no gripes with them. If anything they were the ones who looked out for all the students. . .. .sp. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 15:40: Message edited by: salapilot ]</small>

[oxford blue]

Salapilot, I think you're completely earnest and honest, but I still think you're wrong. . .. .The problem is one of communication. If you had to get out on time, did you ever TELL your instructor / course mentor / flight team leader that it was necessary? If he doesn't know, he's not psychic. They can only prioritise in the light of the information available to them at the time.. .. .The management at Oxford has changed recently. That may not be much help to you in retrospect. But customer focus is very high on their present agenda. Also, I don't actually believe that there's that much difference between this mythical 'management' that everone on this site talks about and 'the instructors'. The senior instructors ARE the management. If they know you have a problem, they WILL try to sort it out. But you have to tell them.. .. .You can bet your boots that the senior training managers at BA, bmi, Aer Lingus, etc, keep the pressure on to get the students to pass out on time. They're paid to do it. You have to do the same. Then, it will happen. Students (including self-sponsored students) are our life-blood. We know that.. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 16:12: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</small>

[Shadowpurser]

Maybe not the right forum but seems the right people are here right now to answer this question. How much would it be to go from nothing to comercial pilot at oxford, and how long would it take? Also what do you get with the money you fork out?

[laminarflow]

I've just finished at Oxford myself and found that on occasion the sponsored students were put in front of me. . .However, after 911 i was in no rush to get out but i pitched up early and finished late to make sure i got to fly daily. If you make the effort to get on with the people behind the operations desk, then this too is a bonus as they will go to great lengths to find you an aircraft. . .Having said that planes do go tech and thats no one's fault but it does mean that you tend to get bumped for the sponsored students.. .I do agree with Oxford Blue that if do have a deadline, financial or whatever, then Oxford does do all it can to help. This has occurred with several of my friends and they got out on time.. .All the best whatever you decide to do

[oxford blue]

Shadowpurser, I can't waste bandwidth on this forum giving you a long and detailed reply about all the various options and prices at Oxford. You might be eligible for any one of 4 courses. Also it would be seeen as abusing this site to advertise.. .. .Have a look <a href="http://www.oxfordaviation.net/forum/default.asp" target="_blank">here</a> or give your email address on your profile or post it on this thread

[salapilot]

Oxford blue. I'm sure things have improved ,but I would like to clarify some of my points. When I mean management I to meant some of the senior instructors. I did inform Oats the importance of finishing, both verbally and in writing. Was anything done.... well no.. .. .I just want to highlight my experiences with Oats and like I said just take what Marketing say with caution. Oats has some of the best ground instructors as well as Flying. Indeed I keep in touch with some of them still. Just because some of us have bad experiences it doeasen't mean others will. However it is clear with sponsored students decreasing the likelyhood of problems will also decline. When it turns the other way well let's hope they only bite off what they can chew ! . .. .sp

[259dww]

I am an Oxford student at the moment and we have raised this question with the management who have said that they will push students through who have a start date for their new job. As self sponsored students rarely have a job the sponsored guys get put through first. I will say though that the training is excellent and really good fun but do NOT believe anything that the marketing department tells you!! Ask people who know what actually happens!

[tailscrape]

Onemorehold,. .. .You are quite correct.. .. .I got a "really good job" because:. .. .1: I worked really hard (anyone who knows who i am will vouch for this). .. .2: I failed nothing at OATS, with the exception of a single ground exam (nothing special there). .. .3: I was lucky to be accepted to the ATP Academy in November 2000 (6 mths after OATS...again I am nothing that special). .. .4: I really wanted to fly. I applied to everyone, and happened very luckily to get a 757 job. End of story.. .. .5: I had a previous career, but really loved flying. I hope that helped me too.. .. .You don't need to be a god. You need luck. I had that thank god. Many who know me will say that, but i am as happy now in a PA28 as I am in a B757, so just give it your best shot, be positive, play the game, try hard, be professional (but not too much) and just keep going.. .. .OATS was good to me. It taught me self discipline and I really loved it there. . .. .My best friends were on my course (so I realise now), so enjoy it. . .. .How you do at OATS and what YOU make of it will follow YOU through your rest of your life. NO ONE else, just YOU. Good luck.. .. .And don't become second best, kick up if you don't get what you want....I did.

[batty]

I left OATS a little over a year ago as a self sponsored student and at that time there did seem to be a priority list in force.. .. .However that said if you set your goals and pushed ahead towards them there was not usualy any problem. . .. .Unfortunatly there were a few self sponsored students who were happy to sit back and do little(as indeed there were a few sponored students).. .. .I think a difference comes from the fact that the sponsored students were always under the threat of being chopped where some self sponsored students had mummy and daddy to pay and they were never going to be chopped.These were the people who would turn up late for flights, disappear away for days and wonder why they didnt get through on time complaining about the way the sponsored vs self sponsored were treated. . .. .Sponsored students had their company pushing them along setting the goals and if they didnt work would get chopped.. .. .This isnt a rant on self vs sponsored especially since I was self sponsored. However it is a few bad apples that spoil the pie, the guys willing to work got through without problems by setting their own goals and pushing to achieve them and I would believe its the same today.. .. .I enjoyed most of OATS ( it had its moments!! lol ) and was lucky enough to get a job a month after leaving, had I not pushed going through the course I would have not been in the right place at the right time with a clean record. You make your own luck, Oxford is what you make it dont blame others!!. . . . <small>[ 11 March 2002, 08:59: Message edited by: batty ]</small>

[easondown]

Tailscrape,. .. .I ,like your humble self worked hard and got several lucky breaks along the way and am in the rhs of A320 - I've never really understood what the big thing about this training establishment OATS is - perhaps snob appeal ??. .. .Anyway good luck to u Tailscrape !!!

[tailscrape]

Onemorehold,. .. .It is as I say, and indeed as Batty says too (whom I know)....if you are lucky and work hard, you may just get a break.. .. .I am very fortunate. I know that. It sounds like you were too.. .. .OATS and all the other places can say what they like about being the place to train for the airlines.....the reality is that unless you are bloody lucky....with 200 hours you know very little and are of limited use to anyone.. .. .That is where luck comes in....... . . . <small>[ 11 March 2002, 22:41: Message edited by: tailscrape ]</small>

[batty]

Yes there may be some snob appeal howeverI based my judgment on where to go on what I saw when I went around the other schools and looked at the facilities. I thought at that time that OATS seemed to be the best of the bunch.. .. .Snob appeal is great in that it also applies to the airlines. They know which are the better schools and I got my job because I went to OATS. The airline concerned went to OATS looking for recommended students, I was one. . .. .Snob appeal is great, it got me a job! Dont knock it.

[PFD]

There is a lot of good sense posted here and some bad, you should be able to tell the difference. In particular someone said that you have to set your own goals and reach them. . .. .Oxford Instructors will help you through the JAR exams, But who will pass them, You will. . . .. .Obviously they will help you as much as they can, but your self motivation and hard work are what really counts. As for the snob comment, well unfortunately life's a bitch and then you die. The Airline industry can be clicky and sometimes names swing it, right or wrong I'm not in a position to judge.

[BIRGIL27]

SO, has the numbers of pilots fallen at OATS? And those who are there now finding it easier to get up?. .. .And for those who have been through! How active was OATS in finding you a seat at the front of a plane?. .. .This great stuff guys. This debate is giving me a lot of insight! Thanks

[oxford blue]

Batty has just told you that Oxford directly found him his job. I remember it. His airline approached us looking for half a dozen self-sponsored likely lads who were just coming up to the end of their training.. .. .Obviously, we didn't suggest just anybody. We selected from those students who we thought were pretty good and wouldn't let our reputation down. As many people have pointed out on this site, you make your own luck.. .. .Since Sep 11, we haven't had that sort of approach again from airlines yet. But I expect it will happen again when the airlines need new recruits again.. .. .Just a suggestion to Scroggs and WWW: As the majority of replies on this thread are clearly demonstrating, shouldn't it really be entitled "OXFORD GOOD FOR SELF SPONSORED"?. .. .Put a positive spin on it instead of the inevitable negative spin to the casual reader of the index who doesn't bother to read further?. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 15:58: Message edited by: oxford blue ]</small>

[fly-half]

I'm just about to start at OAT in about 6 weeks and can't wait - I know that there'll be tons of hard work and I'll have to be extremely motivated - no flying at all for 19 weeks?!!! Eh?. .. .Anyway, I don't know for sure but I don't think there are many self-sponsored students on my course (only one girl). I am therefore hopeful that I won't experience any difficulties in competing for hours with people on my course. . .. .I'm 26 and have worked for several years - haven't had to use my brain for ages and am scared of the ground school stuff! I shall put the work in.......

[salapilot]

oh oxford blue please..... maybe you should look at the archives and see how many people have posted negative(yet constructive) posts about Oats.. .. .Stop trying to manipulate or put your own spin on this thread. Students have had both good and bad experiences. The thread was started to ASK people's opinions not to sell OATS!. .. .Sp

[Yorkshire-Pud]

Oxford Blue, posts like this really do show OATS arrogant nature. . .. .Batty would have got a job without your help - he's ex RAF. .. .In the interests of balanced feedback tell the good viewers of this thread about all the help you give to those who are not ex RAF.. .. .I'm sure you won't tell them about the 'pretty good' chap that nearly ruined your relationship with said airline - just goes to show, you don't always pick the best people for the job.. .. .Still, anyone going to OAT, go with the expectation that you get NO help to find a job - that way any help you do get is a bonus. . .. .The groundschool team are excellent as are most of the flight instructors and remember: there are plenty of ex-OAT guys (& girls) who go on to get good jobs despite a helping hand from OATS since most airlines are made up of decent folk who give everyone the same chance - unlike OATS themselves

[GROBIT]

There have been many mixed experiences from ex-OATS students. I left OATS in Jan 2000 and have only just got a job. I have good and bad memories. The Instructors were first class and supported the students 100 percent. As a self sponsored student I was definitely put in second place behind the BA Cadets on my course. I had 12 singles Instructors, 4 Twin Instructors, 3 room moves (the second room I had had urine stains on the floor from the previous Kewait student, who then before leaving used the wardrobe to store his bowel movements. I compained several times about the smell and only after moving did OATS tell me what they found in the room before I moved in. It's nice to know I was storing food inside a toilet and not a wardrobe). I lost count of the A/C I lost to the BA Cadets. At the end of the day I have the qualification, made some good friends and am looking forward to a flying career. As for OATS, there customer service sucks and i'm glad to be gone.

[Tosh McCaber]

Grobit. .. .Well done in finding work at last, especially in the current climate. Since you have had to wait for quite a while to get that job, I'm sure that fellow Wannabees would be interested to know how many hours you had on leaving, and how did you manage to keep current-what did you do in the unemployed period after college, and what reactions you got whilst applying for work during that period?. .. .Did you get your job by networking or by good luck? Obviously, by the sound of it, the College had no hand in it!

[GROBIT]

Tosh, I had around 400 hrs. Since leaving OATS I took all sorts of temp jobs (had to pay those career development loans). After 6 months I decided that I would have to put myself into areas of work that would give me some experience in an airline. I managed to get some work in recruitment for a major carrier which gave me an excellent insight into pilot recruitment as well as other trades within the company. After that, I got a job in a pilot training facility as a result of getting to know someone that I was recruiting for the major. I met lots of crews from the UK & overseas . This didn't get me a job, but gave me lots of useful contacts so I could talk directly to the right people. I also got some valuable sim time in. The job was a result of being recommended, passing the interview and sim test. The whole process can be very disheartening, but persistence pays off along with hard work. Be pro-active and try any approach to get noticed (I even sent Christmas cards to Chief Pilots with my CV printed on the inside). I wish all the luck to those still trying to get that first job. It's a tough place to be, but I really do think things are going to get better in the next few months.

[salapilot]

Well done Grobit. It just shows no matter what school you have been to that if you are proactive and have the personality the chance will come to you. I've realised (the expensive way) that OATS on you CV isn't worth what it was several years ago.. .. .sp

[ML Handler]

Sponsored students do get priority over modular students when it comes to seats at Oxford to sit your exams. Before somebody post a message saying that OATS have no control over allocation of places I heared this directly from the head of modular training at OATS. Modular students often find themselves having to go to examination locations elsewhere at thier own expence where as Oxford do not want to foot this bill as they have been paid a set ammount for each sponsored cadet, hence they get priority. OATS marketing will not tell you this unless you ask.

[ImNot]

Personally knew someone who found the BA boys had preferance. Gave him big problems when it came to test time. Cant really blame OATS though, but none the less a bit naughty.

[Tosh McCaber]

Sorry to trouble you again, Grobbit. Another couple of questions. . .. .Since you left Oxford with 400hrs, I guess that you must have started the course with 200+-hrs, since you only come out of the integrated course with 170+hrs.. .. .Secondly, did you manage to keep current with hour-building, IF, etc during your attempts to find work between then and now? How many hours have you managed/afforded to build up during that time?

[ImNot]

Very intersted to know the amount of people who found having OATs on their CV helped in getting jobs. Personally think its over rated but don't know for sure.

[Pilot Pete]

I was self sponsored and did the old Upgrade course back in 1998 at OAT. They offered nothing in the form of assistance to get a job after qualification to me, but to be fair I didn't really push them on this. . .. .It's a training provider that will get you the qualification you require. If you choose to spend what they ask for a full course and that suits you then fine, no problem. Remember though that everyone else will have the same shiny licence in their hand, wherever they trained. OAT on your cv as your training provider is just that. Don't expect chief pilots to be drooling over your cv with 200hrs from OATS on it. In the current market you will require lots more than that and by the time you get it OATS will be in the dim and distant past, employers want to know what you are currently doing and the quality of what you are doing, not really who trained you a couple of years ago.. .. .If you are one of the VERY FEW lucky ones who gets a job with 200hrs then great, but don't be fooled into thinking that OAT on your cv will open doors for you. It won't. Determination, perseverance, dedication, hard work and HOURS get the doors open to the chief pilots office. When I was there many of the self sponsored students(including me) thought that it would make a difference on our cvs, what we were doing was justifying to ourselves why we were at OATS and that suited their marketing team very nicely......I see they still use the slogan about having OATS on your cv.. .. .So if you haven't guessed it already my opinion would be that if OATS is the best option for you then go there, if it isn't for whatever reason, then don't go there for the only reason that you will have it on your cv.. .. .Best of luck. .. .PP

[Pilot Pete]

Forgot to mention, when I was there short courses was also on the airfield and we were certainly treated as second class, you had to make sure that nobody nicked your aircraft! The other thing that narked me was they wanted my upgrade fees in 4 payments over the 8 week course. That sounds fine, but with lots of crap weather about we had slipped well behind schedule by the time the second payment was due, by the time the third was due I had refused to pay it until I'd flown off some of my now considerable credit!!!! They didn't like that and tried to block us on their computer system so we couldn't book aircraft out but seems as there were so many of us in the same position I think the numbers made them think again and see some sense. In the end the upgrade took something like 14 weeks.. .. .PP

[GROBIT]

Hi Tosh

[GROBIT]

Hi Tosh (again),. . Not sure what happen just then, but looks like I've posted an introduction. I had a PPL before OATS, with the usual mix of circuit bashing and local area hours. After OATS I continued with this as well as training as an instructor for the Air Cadets on motor gliders. It's all VFR stuff and my IR has lapsed. I did think about going to the USA to do it again, but finances have stopped me. I'm just very lucky to have been given an opportunity.