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radar707
20th Jan 2003, 16:23
We've all seen it in the news, now lets talk about it:

Builders worth more than ATCOs (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78577)

250 kts
20th Jan 2003, 21:39
The MEMBERSHIP just voted to accept a 2 year deal. I understand that the voting probably showed only one unit voted against the offer and it happens to be relatively new and close to the south coast.

Maybe if a few other units had had the guts for a fight we may be in a better position than we seem to be at present.

Undercover
23rd Jan 2003, 11:17
Yep... and maybe we'd all have had to take a bigger hit on work practices, terms and conditions and head count in order to pay for it.

Fantastic idea.

250 kts
24th Jan 2003, 13:21
Undercover,

I was merely responding to the fact that a builder at LHR is now worth more than an ATCO at that very same airfield. As for your other comments it is a fact that we are an ATC organisation and yet the operational staff are heavily out numbered by the non-ops staff. So maybe there is an opportunity to rationalise the organisation in certain areas.

In terms of working practices the new centre is around 45 ATCOs short for this summer and thjase that are there are being encouraged to attend more often. What we are not seeing is a desire from management to post staff into the unit even when individuals have shown a desire to move there.

Down Ampney
25th Jan 2003, 10:40
250
Just picking up on your last sentence.
The controllers who want to move to Swanwick; who have they spoken to about this?

63000 Triple Zilch
25th Jan 2003, 21:35
250, posting experienced ATCO's into LACC is not the answer to the problem. The reason LACC management, and indeed NATS, are reluctant to move them is because experience shows they are no more likly to validate than Students from the College. Indeed if anything they are less likely!! Also they are off operational strength for up to 2 years whilst they train and wait for a slot. This costs about £120k in wages alone. Whereas a student is cheaper and to send him to LACC does not deprive the strength of another unit. Unpalatable maybe but true!!

fish food
25th Jan 2003, 22:25
63K...

Whereas a student is cheaper and to send him to LACC does not deprive the strength of another unit.

Quite correct! The very same argument is used by management for NOT transferring ATCOs from Prestwick Oceanic to Scottish Airways for cross-training. You end up with a two trainee situation, (Ocean ATCO in Airways and Student in Ocean), rather than a cheaper single trainee, (Student in Airways), alternative.

experience shows they are no more likly to validate than Students from the College. Indeed if anything they are less likely!!

Sadly, the same also applies!!

:(

250 kts
26th Jan 2003, 09:12
I certainly agree that posting an individual,say 40+ against his will is probably not going to get a validation. But if someone is motivated enough to say they want to move and are considered to be able to re-validate,then we should be allowing them to move asap.

Senior managers have to make a decision where the staffing priorities lie. It is not the likes of MACC and ScOACC that they will be talking about on Radio 4 every day through the summer but Swanwick and I think we are all aware of this. In fact moving sectors away from LACC only makes the situation harder to manage.

We should also look at streamlining the training for these people when they do relocate in order that they become a valid member of the team quickly.

eyeinthesky
28th Jan 2003, 10:22
The problem is one of inertia. If it was understood that what happened was you went from the College of Knowledge to MACC or SCATCC and validated there and got a few years' experience under your belt and then you WOULD move to LACC/LTCC then nobody would complain. It's just a question of getting that process moving.

The same is true of the College. There should be valid OJTIs instructing in the simulator there, and if it was understood that every OJTI would spend some time there every few months or whatever, whilst maintaining validity at their own unit, then nobody would complain. Some might argue that the quality or relevance of the simulator instruction at the College might improve, but that's another can or worms.;)