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View Full Version : Other ways to spend 50 grand.


Joe Bolt
9th Dec 2001, 22:24
Last week I was listening to a medical programme on BBC Radio 4. The topic concerned a scheme to train General Practitioners in certain specialist skills. On meeting the required standard, the GPs were then able to perform certain procedures in their own surgeries, thereby reducing the number of referrals to Specialist Doctors, and hopefully cut NHS waiting lists.

I became particularly interested when the commentator stated that, for many GPs this was the first time they had been required to sit any form of examination since qualifying as doctors, perhaps 20 or more years ago.

This is certainly a world away from piloting aeroplanes, where the next medical, check-ride, sim check or rating renewal is forever looming menacingly on the horizon.

I then began to wonder just how far £50,000 would go in funding the study required to qualify in some medical discipline. (Not necessarily only as a doctor). If you have the stomach for it, the prospects for employment are good, you'd have a great deal of public support, you'd be surrounded by women and you would have the option to live and work just about anywhere. Every city has a hospital!

I have given the above example as a lead-in to the following question:-

If you had no interest whatever in aviation, (but were otherwise normal), and if you had £50,000 available to fund a career move, what would you do? What could you do?

Perhaps you can give an example of a friend or acquaintance, who has succeeded in their own career venture, through the use of money to fund training and aquire new skills.

Apologies to anyone who thinks that this is an unsuitable post for this forum. I am of the opinion that it is only sensible to consider other options, especially given the current aviation job situation. I look forward to reading your replies.

Wee Weasley Welshman
10th Dec 2001, 00:20
I know someone who spent £27k to become a demolition man. Now he blows stuff up full time, has a choice of work anywhere in the world, makes £60k a year and takes 3 months a year off.

I always swear I'll follow him if I ever lose my medical etc.

He blew up a damn in South America - I've seen the video and its simply awesome...

WWW

Thoroughly Nice Bloke...
10th Dec 2001, 00:27
WWW

Does he have any vacancies.... :)

twinkletoes
10th Dec 2001, 05:28
I'm not sure where you are going with this one but as I have an opinion and am unable to keep it to myself...

People spend 50 grand trainning to become a CPL (in the UK) for, amongst others 3 main reasons.
They love flying.
They want four stipes as a status symbol.
They can't 'pull' any other way.
These are all linked by the dream of an job involving very little work an over inflated pay check and lots of holiday. (With a few excptions).

The reason trainning is so expensive is due to. Oil comapnies, government and the CAA.
Take a look the cost of trainning in one of the most popular aviation trainning enviroments the USA. Last year the cost of trainning including ppl, ir, cpl, multi, cfi, cfii and CRM was approx 18000 pounds and you would have come out if it all with at least 750 hrs+.
The CAA have to take their fair share of the blame. For example under the FAA system you are looking at 5 intergrated exams at 60 dollars each. Flight tests and renewals which are free+aircraft hire if you choose to test directly with the FAA as oppesed to an approved examiner, and cut and dry licence issue which from memory is also free.
The FAA also have a question data bank open to all which makes the groundschool/publishers able to provide literature at affordable prices. The FAA also produce their own books which are even cheaper (but less colourful) that cover all required knowlage.
The FAA are not however an 'old boys' network making aviation a possible career open to a wider section of the population as long as the candidate has the drive, intelligence and determination.
The extortionate cost of landing fees also has plays a big part in the UK US divide however I beleive this is probably down to government and possibly the oil companies.

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: twinkletoes ]

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: twinkletoes ]

bow5
10th Dec 2001, 14:24
I agree with you twinkle toes. The cost of flight training in the UK is utterly ridiculous. Unfortunately, while people keep on paying the fee (and they will, there will always be the rich parents) then nothing will ever change - in fact, it can only get worse.

Is there actually any proof at all that FAA drivers are less safe than their JAA counterparts. Certainly, many US First Officers have far more hours under their belt and normally some sort of aviation related degree obtained at an aviation university. As far as i'm aware most US pilots qualify at uni, instruct to 1500hrs, and then get a job with a regional before progressing onto the bigger jets and airlines. With respect, OAT and the like require 5 GCSE's (there are 10 year olds that have this many GCSE's) to begin training before churning out pilots with 200hrs at almost triple the price of the FAA system. That to me makes a total mockery of the whole thing. To coin a phrase,'JAA sucks'. :mad:

Quidditch Captain
10th Dec 2001, 14:29
A while ago a colleague of mine who was a successful IT salesman gave all that up and trained as a barrister. I believe that not only do they need to finance the training, but they then are expected to work gratis for a long period for whats called "pupilage" (and lawyers out there please correct me if I'm wrong!)

Polar_stereographic
10th Dec 2001, 14:39
Another example of 'Rip off Britain'.

bow5
10th Dec 2001, 14:50
I case people hadn't noticed, this country is going down the pan, despite what were are spoon fed by the government via the BBC et al. The reality is we pay more and more, year on year right across the board for a level of service and quality that diminishes with every day that passes. A vast majority of companies are run by penny pinchers with incompetant and blinkered bosses with no respect for the treatment of the customer or their staff.

I've just read the thread about BA job losses in Rumours....Prime example i'm afraid. BA is one of the best, if not THE best, known airline throughout the world with the biggest brand name and brand image but through poor management etc etc it's in big trouble. In my opinion Sep 11th has been an excuse for poorly managed airlines to shed vast numbers of staff without the prospect of industrial action and if they go under, well, they've got a ready made excuse.

FOR GOD'S SAKE WAKE UP BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!

Autofly
10th Dec 2001, 17:23
bow5, your dead right. Its been well documented that the airline industry has needed a shake up for ages. The attacks was just the catalyst to kick start the inevitable and is now the excuse.

Talking about people in the uk getting ripped off on everything ....... anyone who thinks I go over to the continent to buy cheap food/beer/cd's etc.etc. becuase I love the Channel Tunnel :rolleyes: has their head in a paper bag.

Anyway, in answer to the original post, no idea. I've never even though about it. I'll have a think ........

AF

ScottishSteve
10th Dec 2001, 20:06
I am not sure if you mean would I pay 50k for MY training, or fund another coz I was basically just rich! BUT

In Scotland at least, we dont pay to go to Medical School, and then the NHS or Private Sector pay for further training as long as you're working with them, so theres no need for 50K for this.

AND

Who on earth wouldn't want to fly for a living (excluding some Ryanair FOs)anyway???Even if it does require initial outlay!

Well thats my young and naive posting, thanks

Steve

Wee Weasley Welshman
10th Dec 2001, 21:06
The flip side of course is that until recently (and it will return) over 250 Wannabes pick up a sponsorship to become a pilot. Pilots start on the smallest turboprop at £20k+. With 200hrs in the UK you can get to the right hand seat of a modern jet airliner.

In the US you may pay less for your initial training but you will then earn a lot less in the first -say- 5 years.

The two systems are different. Both have their merits and drawbacks. Both appear to work.

Remember - if the training only cost £25k a lot more people could afford it. More people would apply for the same job. The company could offer less for that job and still get a competent applicant. Wages would fall. Training costs are a high barrier to entry that helps sustain reasonably high salaries.

I know only too well your angst in the early days with no money and huge bills. I also know that once you are past that phase you won't want cheaper flight training...

That said there should be some changes to bring the groundschool side of training into the same bracket as publicly subsidised vocational study courses such as HND/HNC's... but I've been saying that for years.

WWW

Joe Bolt
11th Dec 2001, 02:23
Twinkletoes, in your profile you state that you have an atpl, and list your current type as 'ppl'.
Bow 5, your profile states your occupation as 'confused'.
It is not surprising that you have both used this thread to grind your own axes about the cost of flight training, without attempting to answer the question posed.
I take it that Autofly is still 'having a think'.

What I am trying to ascertain, is if there are other non-aviation careers for which you, or others, would be be prepared to sacrifice a great deal of time and money in the pursuit of. Surely there must be other dream careers, for others if not for you, apart from being a pilot.

www answered the question with his example of his friend, the demolition man. I wonder what used up most of his financial outlay. Training? Equipment? Back-handers to property developers?

Even if you were doing a course funded mainly by the government, (as in the Scottish Medical School example) you would still be very much out of pocket, if you gave up a well paid job in order to commence your studies.

I for one was advised against training to be a commercial pilot by a Canadian military pilot. He was amazed that I was preparing to spend all of my hard earned cash on flying training. He said that if he had that kind of money available, he would open a laundrette! He might have had a point.

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: Joe Bolt ]

twinkletoes
11th Dec 2001, 02:38
WWW

I do appreciate your point of view.
Unfortunately have to disagree.
A greater pool of qualified pilots would mean (theoreticaly) that the truly able make it to positions that require a greater level of talent.
You are absolutely correct when you say that initialy US pilots are paid less, in fact I am led to beleive that accross the board they are paid less. This being in a country where like for like wages are higher in general.
This is no bad thing as I feel that pay in the upper bands is extremely over inflated.
Pilots indeed have a very high degree of responsibility but have been put on a pedastal in this country far too long.
However I have been reading the thread started by Billy the Fish 2 and understand that Ryan Air and probably others also pay very little in the first few years.
I think most people would rather come out of their trainning with a 20.odd grand debt than a 50 grand debt and this figure only gets worse the longer it takes to pay off. (Sorry to state the obvious).
I do think though that your opinion on ground school courses being subsidised in the way hnd/hncs are is a great idea.
How about going one step further and making the atpl exams a nationaly recognised examination acheivement so that should a trainning pilot leave his field he leaves armed with an HND type qualification or higher.
As for the rest hopefully we can agree to disagree.

Joe bolt. Sorry to go off on a tangent but I did state I wasn't sure were you are going with this thread. I can't imagin many if any occupations that require 50 grand trainning costs that an individual is directly liable for.
Yes I do have an axe to grind, a very large one. I appologise that I have spouted off in you forum.

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: twinkletoes ]

Capt Pit Bull
11th Dec 2001, 13:11
"Put on a pedastel far to long"

Just an observation. About 5 years ago I read a survey of peoples perception of job status, both then and in comparison with a similar survey carried out about 40 years earlier (so thats mid 90's versus mid 50's).

In the early survey, Airline Pilot was about 4th on the list, right up there with Doctor and the other professions.

In the later, Airline pilot had plumetted like a stone. I can't remember exactly what it was just above, but it was something like Rubbish Collector.


Scottish Steve.

You ask "Who wouldn't want to fly for a living". Well, the crux of that question is the word 'Living'. A good career choice needs to be enterable:
(a) With effort & skill on your part (to prevent every tom dick and harry doing the same thing).
(b) Without massive capital investment (to make it available to those that have (a), rather than just those that can fund it).
It then needs to supply:
(c) a variety of places you can ply the trade, to prevent you having to move to the other end of the country, loosing touch with your friends and family (thereby contributing to the general unravelling of society).
(d) STABILITY of employment, with progression dependent on effort rather than dumb luck.

Sadly, aviation fails most if not all of those criteria.

Wannabes, steer clear if you have any sense. Knowing what I know now, if I had my time again I wouldn't touch this career with a bargepole.

And I'm in a good position in the scheme of things.

CPB

[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: Capt Pit Bull ]

bow5
11th Dec 2001, 13:13
Joe Bolt, same here. I was replying to a point in a thread in your post. Sorry to have gone off on a tangent.

I would say, however, that putting a post on a wannabee aviation forum asking whether or not IF people had £50,000 they would go off and do something else is going to meet with pretty much only one response. You mention about spending £50,000 to go into medicine as an alternative. Well, as is not the case in aviation, to go into any discipline of medicine that required that level of training would neccesitate 4 A's at 'A' level and a good degree in medicine from a good university before you could even think about further training. The same goes for Law. In fact, aviation is just about the only career in which you can 'buy' yourself into with minimal qualifications, obviously discounting starting your own business.

Lastly, if you were trying to infer that me and/or twinkletoes are stupid from what is put in our profiles then grow up. Currently I am trying to decide whether or not to pursue a JAA ATPL course given the current climate, hence the word 'confused'.

[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: bow5 ]

Shanks
12th Dec 2001, 12:20
Thanks for voicing that opinion Capt Pit Bull, this was a question which I have been wondering whether to post. To any of those who are working commercially (and still visit us poor wannabes!) and have sacrificed a lot to achieve a long held ambition, not those who have stumbled into this profession:

"Was it worth it, was it all you had hoped it would be?"

OK, before my post is held up for critique by GASP (Gramma And Spelling Police), I know that's really 2 questions, and I'm not sure if it should be "that's", "thats'" or just plain "thats" in this case ;)

I think an honest answer to these questions is as valuable to wannabes as answers regarding financing and the choice of schools. I apologise if this should be on another thread, or if these questions have been answered before (search never seems to work for me, the site is always too busy).

Thanks,
Shanks.

....queue Ronchonner with a diatribe on the pitfalls of the JAA and an order for a Big Mac meal.

AeroBatfink
13th Dec 2001, 02:18
Just a couple of ideas:

Open a Diving School in Micronesia...?

Mountain Climbing Guide in New Zealand...?

I'm sure I can think of a few others - too much to do, too little time...

rebeccadblake
18th Dec 2001, 04:12
O man I have all this money thing to come... and I am sruggling all ready.

50k holly crap. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Capt Pit Bull
18th Dec 2001, 05:40
And don't forget to add a couple of years wages that you could have been earning on another career path instead of training. I reckon most people are a good 100K worse of than they would have been, assuming they have any capability in any other field.

CPB

Luke SkyToddler
18th Dec 2001, 15:22
I'd probably be like those guys in "Point Break", live a lifestyle of surfing and general decadence and engage in the occasional spot of bank robbery to fund it all :D

tailscrape
21st Dec 2001, 22:18
As George Best said " I spent most of my money on Women, Booze and Gambling. The rest I just wasted." Exactly.

I reckon all up, it cost me nearly 200k to get where I am .

50k at OATS and 2 years lost wages.....but IT IS WORTH IT!

nickstraker
22nd Dec 2001, 02:49
TT in response to your original question you might like to explore osteopathy or chiropractic

Hoodwink
22nd Dec 2001, 19:38
Chiropractor ! that is a good idea, you would be earning a load of dosh. I looked into chiropractic courses sometime ago..... I dont really remember how long the course takes .... 5 years twangs a tendon though, anyone know how much the course is and its exact duration .

Hoodwink

<img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> L4 ,5 are killin me

piperindian
25th Dec 2001, 19:00
the JAR ATPL is indeed the worst possible investment possible : three years and 50k for ending up serving fish and chips at your local street corner!
This scam must be denounced by all available means !

even throwing 50k in the dust bin does not require two years of study and practice

other ways

sports car (at least there is a resale value)
gift or wife (not always a good investment <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> )
small appartment (good investment)

ojay
27th Dec 2001, 00:14
Sorry to rain on everybodys parade but the 3 grade A,A levels requisite for med school seems to have been conveniently overlooked.Also,the subsequent 6 year slog prior to entering slave labour courtesy of the NHS.Flying is a good career,not without pitfalls and ultimately considerable responsibility,but in the real world nothing is for free.I also didn't know that there were no women in the airline biz?b/rgds.

DiverDriver
28th Dec 2001, 01:11
I’ve read this post from start to finish and whilst I understand that it is a fact of life that in order to realise our ambitions we need the finances to make it happen and that for most (me included) this demands that we have some way of paying it back at the end of it all. Never the less I have a fundamental problem with this money and other career thing.
A little while ago some one asked why was I spending thousands on flying when the money could be better invested elsewhere (alternative careers etc). My reply was that I am in the business of collecting memories so that when I’m old and grey and dribbling out the side of my mouth in some nursing home the one thing I will still have (Alzheimer’s accepted) will be the memories I have collected along the way. For me flying is the only career that I have felt drawn toward, my vocation, if you will, and like all other things that I love (my family included) it is the memories that I have gained from these experiences that seem to be the strongest.
I accept that the road to my chose career is difficult and at times I do feel that there are those who, wittingly or otherwise, conspire against me. Never the less, I do feel that the memories I gain along the way, whether I am successful or not, will be far stronger and longer lasting that the memories gained from pursuing a career that I had no affinity with.

Could it be that “It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all”……

Oh – I feel quite drained after that…time for a glass of wine…TTFN DD.