Engine shutdown on MEP renewal

[Timothy]

In another thread Distaff_BeanCounter mentioned that (s)he (presumbly she, hence the distaff bit?) is routinely asked to feather an engine on the MEP renewal.

I do the combined MEP/IR renewal and have never been asked to actually feather. AFAIR I have only feathered:

1) On initial Group B (MEP for the youngsters)
2) For real
3) On 1179s
4) On CofA test flights

I certainly never did an actual shutdown on Company Base Checks.

So, is my MEP/IRE missing a trick, am I supposed to do a full shutdown on MEP, or is someone taking DBC a little further than required (not that that's a bad thing!) ?

W

[rustle]

Have a read of this: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_14_v2.pdf

The sections you need are on pages 15-17 (of 17)

Section 5 - Abnormal and Emergency Procedures...

For LPC purposes this section is relevant to SE type/class only...

Engine shutdown and restart
• Use checklist correctly.
• Maintain aircraft heading and performance.
• Effect drills without assistance.
Which seems to indicate that initial skills test this will be tested, but for LPC it need not be tested.

There's some interesting reading in this document about combined IR/MEP LPCs as well ;)

All my MEP renewals (both pre and post IR) have included shutdown and restart whilst airborne.

[GT]

WCollins,

As far as I'm aware an engine shutdown is not part of the MEP(Land) class rating revalidation, or part of the skill test either, for that matter. I tell my students for the rating that having covered it in the course of flying training it will not be covered in the skill test. None of them have come back to me afterwards and said that it was.

In fact, as I recall, part two of the form used for the MEP(Land) class rating application (where the flight training and test profiles are recorded) may have the engine shutdown blanked out for the flight test. Un fortunately, I don't have one to hand.

Having said that, things change. For example, I believe, rejected take-offs are now part of the fight tests for both single and multi.

Don't take my word for it though, give Gatwick a call or look at their website.

Regards, GT.

[distaff_beancounter]

WCollins
(As you ask ..... yes I was female, last time I looked :D :D )

Under the "joys of JAR" I have now done 3 MEP revalidation proficiency tests (if that is the correct JARspeak :confused: ).

All 3 tests were on GA7s, & on all 3 tests I was asked (at a safe height) to do a full close down & then a restart.

Just a thought though :confused:

GA7s are relatively simple & low powered, so ideal for training, as they are easy to fly on 1 engine, & easy to restart.

With some of the more high powered twins, especially those with turbo-chargers, is it advisable to close down an engine in flight, just for training purposes? Or would this cause unacceptable wear/stress to that engine? Or are they more difficult to restart?

[rustle]

distaff_beancounter

With some of the more high powered twins, especially those with turbo-chargers, is it advisable to close down an engine in flight, just for training purposes?

Exactly - we never do EFATO or shutdowns in our own - that's what HIRED/school aircraft are for :D

[StrateandLevel]

The content of a Multi-engine Skill Test and Proficiency Check is given in Appendix 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240.

Engine shut down and restart is part of the practical training for a MEP Class rating. There is no requirement to complete it on either a Skill Test or a Proficiency Check.

The latest version of the now combined LPC/LST Form SRG1157 Jan 03 shows it as an Optional item not a Mandatory one.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I would refuse to fully feather / shut down a piston engine aircraft in flight, just to show that it can be done.

My refusal is based on common sense.

You cannot force me to create an emergency that does not exist at the time.

By the way, on this subject how many trainers conduct full feather shut downs on piston engine airplanes during cold weather especially in winter?

Cat Driver:

[distaff_beancounter]

StrateandLevel
You state that the engine close doen, is now an Optional item.

But, whose option?

ie can the examiner ask for a close down, but give the student the option of refusing to?

[StrateandLevel]

The shut down has always been an optional item under JAR-FCL however there is no guidance on what "optional" means.

In the old UK M/E Skill Test an engine shut down was mandatory, now it is not. An examiner may at his discretion ask a candidate to perform any manoeuvre taught on the training course for which he is testing. The skill test is the means of determining if the aim of the course has been met; it does this by sampling major items, rather than testing everything 100%. Usually, additional (optional) items are only added to satisfy the examiner that a candidate is a pass or a fail i.e. it is to clarify some doubt in the examiners mind. There is no call to conduct optional items just because the examiner feels like it; the test should normally be confined to the published Mandatory items.

I agree with Chuck there is no point in closing down a serviceable engine. If you have never seen it, there is some value, though others might dissagree. You should not be asked to do it on each renewal.

If you do not agree with the examiner you have a right of appeal under CAA Regulation 6, regarding the conduct of the test. If you are asked to perform an optional item, the examiner must be prepared to explain the reason.

[piotr]

Coincidentally I just read an interesting Australian article that claims that "if it's not done properly, engine-failure-after-take-off training can be more dangerous than the real thing"!

Check out www.flightsafety.org.au/articles/e0051.php

My advice - before the revalidation flight agree with the FI/examiner that should he want you to shut down in-flight, you will talk him through the procedure in real time (i.e. touch the appropriate controls, etc.), but not actually do it. Can't see anyone having a problem with that.

[rustle]

piotr

if it's not done properly, engine-failure-after-take-off training can be more dangerous than the real thing"!

As opposed to (SE) PFLs :rolleyes:

Every CofA renewal both engines are shut down (not at the same time) and restarted inflight - it's part of the renewal.

Practising shutdown and restart at altitude within glide of an airfield is no more/less dangerous than PFLs.

I'm sure there are stats that say it is. I'll find some that say it isn't.

I wouldn't do an unnecessary shutdown/feather at 200' AMSL at ORTAC.

No such problem at FL50 in the hold at BIA.

[distaff_beancounter]

I was only asking the question, 'cos Optional always seems a very ill defined term, in the context of the CAA/JAA :confused:

I did the old style CAA "B Rating" when the shut down was mandatory.

I am perfectly happy to shut down an engine on an MEP test, as I am probably far more confident/competent at the procedure now, than I was when I did the initial B Rating test.

With both a shut down and the EFATO, I do agree that training could be as dangerous as the real thing, if the pilot is out of practice.

I can see lots of pros & cons on this discussion, but can pilots get really effective at these procedures, without practice?

Discuss :confused:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Distaff....

To answer your last question, ....yes. And it has the added advantage of teaching them how to fly it with a windmilling prop, so if they can out think the thing with a windmilling prop feathered will be a breeze. :)

You practice at a safe altitude and simulate the engine feather, shut down.

To teach how to feather and unfeather I have a simulator that I use in the zoo, it is a bunch of bananas that I give monkeys to teach them how to pull / push a lever. Or how to punch a button on some aircraft.

I would caution any aircraft instructor that uses over simplified ideas about depending on being at altitude over an airfield ensuring safety.

All it takes is one instance where missjudgement of the approach or a wind shift, turbulence etc. puts you low and behind the power curve and you are screwed.

By the way we do all our feathering and unfeathering checks on our radial engines, for the annual renewal in the hangar. the only precaution we take is we plug in an external electrical power supply. :D

Can someone please explain to me what real benefit you derive from looking at a feathered engine in flight? Why not just show them a picture.

It is very simple, propellor feathering mechanisms will either work when you activate them or they won't. A good argument for not feathering for practice would be the more often you use it the sooner it will wear out and not work the one time you need it.

And can someone tell me if you do full shut downs on piston engine airplanes in the winter? And if so has anyone come up with a minimum temperature where you think this would be prudent?

Cat Driver:

[Timothy]

Chuck

And can someone tell me if you do full shut downs on piston engine airplanes in the winter? And if so has anyone come up with a minimum temperature where you think this would be prudent?

I am with you in wanting to shut engines down as rarely as legally possible.

However, in answer to your last question it is not avoidable on CofA renewal and therefore I did do so last week in the bitter cold (-4 on the ground, -10 at shutdown altitude.)

Is your concern that the engine will get very cold rather quickly, hence the risk of cracks, or that the oil will get rather thick rather quickly and possibly not flow adequately in the CSU?

or maybe something else I hadn't thought of? :D

W

[distaff_beancounter]

Chuck & WCollins
Your concerns abour shut-downs in very cold weather, are something that I think we should be conerned about, in terms of wear/strees to the engine & all the other bits such as CSUs.

In discussions with engineers, I understand that there is considerable stress (is the expression "Cold Shock"?) to an engine, when it goes from normal operating temperature, to shut down in OAT of minus 10 degrees. Then about 5 or 10 mins later it is restarted. In these circumstances, I suppose the only way to mitigate the stress, is immediately close the cowl on the shut-down engine, & after restart, leave it at around zero thrust (1100 RPM in a GA7) until its regained a sensible temperature. That is what I have done on shut-downs in winter.

Chuck
Just to clarify one of your comments. I assume that it is not usual during PPL MEP training, to actully land with 1 engine feathered & shut down. I have practiced asymetric landings, but only with one engine at zero thrust, to SIMULATE the emergency.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I have a few minutes to spare so I will attempt to answer some of your questions.

WCollins:

Re your question in your e-mail, no the Cat does not have a performance catagory to the best of my knowledge, however even though it is demanding with an engine out it will fly on one except with the gear down.

I have flown as far as 250NM on one but it was not comfortable.

Now to engine shut downs in cold weather:

I have the pilot aircraft handling manual in front of me for the C117 which has two Wright Cyclone R1820-80B engines.

Quote:

" The cylinders, due to their size, are prone to choking, Exercize care in maintaining CHT, and avoid rapid CHT fluctuations. " It further cautions that rapid power reductions will cause cylinder cracking due to the cylinder shrinking faster than the pistons and piston rings.

It is very important to understand the physics of thermal shock with regard to Aircraft, air cooled piston engines.

You must be especially careful with thermal shock at temperatures below standard. ( +15 deg. C )

Also remember thermal shock behaves the same hot to cold or cold to hot.

There is a finite life for all metals, bearing that in mind cylinder life is partly predicated on thermal expansion / shrinkage cycles , therefore large temperature changes such as produced by engine shut down and re start in flight, shorten the life expectancy of the metal.

When considering shock cooling the most critical item is the cylinders, most other components will cool / heat at a slower rate due to their mass and exposure to the airflow.

Rather than go into a boring and finger wearing out session on this subject let me make some simple statements.

Engine feathering and full shut down is for emergencys only.

Changing power settings must be based on the temperature of the air with regard to the time frame of the power change. The colder the air the slower the power change must be.

In any event never change power in such a manner as to induce a fast load change internally in the engine, if at all possible.

Any TC, CAA, FAA, CASA or any other government inspector that tried to intimidate me into shutting down an engine in flight just to show I could, would find his rule book shoved where he would need an anal scanner to read it.

Distaff:

Yes there are instructors who will land with one feathered.

But you be a good instructor and show that you are not from the shallow end of the gene pool and "simulate".

A single engine approach and landing is a non event, as long as you maintain the proper approach profile that will maintain a constant rate of descent, power and air speed.

Flying these devices is not rocket science, but you must understand the subject.

And another "BIG" advantage to proper engine handling is your employer will save money, and you will be worth more to the employer. Not to mention the safety factor.

Geees....... I am getting to be the Ann Landers of the aviation group. :D :D

Cat Driver:
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[CaptAirProx]

Chuck, I totally agree.

Our club twin suffered very early wear and had both lycomings swapped around 1300hrs!

Our club SOP is now not to feather an engine more than once in training. This is the legal minimum for JAR MEP. We are asked not to do it any other time to avoid excessive engine wear.

I do believe that the student should see the prop stopped at least once though. Do you remember the first time you did it? I do, I nearly crapped myself! So there is a good teaching point to see it once. I also whilst on one engine get the student to do steep turns and very gentle wing overs. It teaches them power/rudder control and also that you can still fly a twin single either way provided you keep the speed up and know the supplementary recovery procedure (close both throttles!).

Not only do we stop unnecessary feathers, but we also simulate a failed engine by initially closing the mixture lever. Once the student has identified and verified by closing the throttle, we then advance the mixture to rich. All done at safe height. In the circuit we try and use the throttle instead. According to Lycoming, this method of using mixture stops excessive forces and wear on the crankshaft as the power is rapidly reduced. And can stop the crankshaft becoming de-balanced.

W. Collins.

I feel very sorry for your Aztec! I would have delayed the test flight till another day unless it was actually really necessary! But hey, its your aircraft! For info, our club Arrow suffered cracked cylinders early on with a new engine, due to "someone" descending the aircraft at probably idle power from high altitude. Nobody could be blamed tho. And incidently, in a PA46 malibu, if you reduce power by more than 3inches manifold at high altitiude (25,000) you will cause damage! The front cylinders are operating at a very differnent temp to the rear ones! All being boosted by two turbos.

[Timothy]

CAP

I'm sure the old girl appreciates your sympathy. ;) I do compensate by giving her the very gentlest of treatment the other 1095 days of the three years :D

The funny thing is that cylinders do crack on the left engine, I think that it is four now, but it does seem to be a matter of age not treatment. Both engines are well into extension, or possibly even on condition, I forget, and only the oldest pots get replaced, and only those on the left.

I wonder if maybe the left was shock cooled once a long time ago and I am slowly paying the price. However this time round it was the right I shut down anyway.

As replacement lumps would probably exceed the value of the airframe I want to get the very longest out of them I can :)

W

[distaff_beancounter]

Chuck
Thanks for the detailed explanation on thermal shcok. It is certainly something that I try to bear in mind, but even more so after your expanations & the other posters comments.

Thanks for apparantly elevating me to the rank of "instructor", but I am just a humble PPL. But I do have with an inquisitive mind, when it comes to all matters mechanical, even if I don't know what I am talking about. :D

I like learning about flying, & this forum seems to be the place to do it. :)

[bluskis]

I hope SS is reading all this, it might shake his faith in the reliability of American engines.

I know its up to us to try to avoid cylinder cracking, but I believe the narrow envelope for avoiding cracking is inherently bad design.

I confess to feeling a traitor to my engines when buzzing around on one just to prove it can be done for the annual revalidation.

Perhaps I will follow others' example and book a school twin for that day in future.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Distaff:

You can be an instructor on any subject that you have a firm understanding of, we instruct by sharing knowledge.

The issuance of and the posession of a certified flight instructor license only demonstrates that you have satisfied the authorities that you have passed " Bureaucracy "

My advise to you is become friends with the aircraft engineers and learn from them.

If you have difficulty identifying who they are, look for someone not dressed like they just returned from fighting every war known to man. :D :D :D

Cat Driver:

[slim_slag]

I hope SS is reading all this, it might shake his faith in the reliability of American engines.

Yawn.

I've never had a decent pint of Castle Eden in Lancashire because they don't know how to look after it over that side of Pennines. Must be same with them Yankee engines crossing Atlantic, seem to work fine over here.

Snooze

[Timothy]

SS & Bluskis

Well, you're both right aren't you?

Cracked cylinders are an expensive nuisance, but they generally get caught by maintenance before they kill.

It seems to be crankshafts, crankcases, piston rods, valve stems and (in the case of continentals) those awful reduction gearboxes that actually break catastrophically.

W