Cathay and Dragon - A Lovers Tiff?

[shortly]

Interestingly in the business section of the local rag today, it was disclosed that Dragon are negotiating with CX to make their upcoming'negotiations' with CX on CXs entry to the Chinese market a non-public affair. Dragon - all that is good and holey in the aviation industry in HKG afraid to go public? CX are happy with a public event on this. Wonder what Dragon are scared to disclose, probably just how tenuous their arguments against HKGs flag carrier really are. You know, excuse me Sir but I am going to play in your yard but you can't play in mine. What's that I hear you say, CX gave those Chinese routes to a struggling little airline in the first place, yup kind of them wasn't it. Reason for this post, I am just getting a bit tired of the snide Dragon comments about CX, as if they don't have problems of their own. They never instigated B scales did they and their pay and conditions are far superior to the flag carriers lol.

[HIALS]

Shortly, this is not the first time you have burst into print in an ill-informed way.

As you may now be aware, the application to postpone the ATLA hearing was put forward by BOTH CX & KA. Therefore, this is not a matter of KA wanting to air it's gripe in private as you wrongly assert.

You might also be interested to note that the issue of PRC-SAR flight allocations is apparently a matter for the Central Government to determine in accordance with the Basic Law. Articles 131 and 132 of the Basic Law document to be precise - which state in part, "The Central People's Government shall, in consultation with the SAR Government, make arrangements providing air services between the region and other parts of the PRC for airlines incorporated in the SAR."

We are therefore going to see this issue become increasingly political - with CNAC (including Air China now) and the PRC probably wanting a different outcome to that desired by CX and Swires. (CITIC will sit on the fence in order to be on the winning side.) Therefore, I suspect, CX realised that the codeshare arrangement offered was a spectacularly good deal (given the alternative of getting a flat rejection either by ATLA at this end or CAAC at the other end) and readily agreed to it. Thus the gloomy faces present when Justice Stone threw the cat amongst the pigeons. Dragonair (under pressure from CITIC not to fight with CX) probably offered the codeshare as a face saving alternative.

The point however is one that I made some time ago. The days when CX/Swire held political sway here are over. Today, Dragonair is likely to be more powerful because of the links with mainland political heavy's (CNAC & Air China). And, just as CX/Swire used political connections to beautiful effect in the past, we must expect that CNAC/Dragonair will do the same in modern times. This cannot be good news for Cathay Pacific's monopolistic domination of Hong Kong aviation. But, c'est la vie!

Remember, even if ATLA gives CX a licence to fly to PRC ports, the mainland Government can (and I suggest will) still deny them access.

Move over Cathay - Dragonair is coming through...

[shortly]

The fact that CX are reacting sympathetically to Government (HKG) concerns at the possible loss of face for HKG if the decision has to go to Beijing is completely understandable. The fact is that Dragon initiated the 'no public hearing' debate and CX then and still would be happy with a public debate. Yes it was a joint decision to delay the ATLA hearing but my previous point remains valid. why did Dragon not want a public hearing? I doubt your assertion that Beijing will look favourably on Dragon because SWIRE have no sway there, the reverse could well be true. As you rightly pointed out ATLA will in all probability rule in favour of competition and therefore CX. Then it will come down to whether the Chinese Mainland Government would be happy to embarass the HKG Executive by ruling differently. I suggest to you that Dragon have by far the most to lose here, we will see what we will see. It couldn't be that CX is happy to take the codeshare now because they are not really ready for the larger than expected expansion that China would require for them? But in a year or two..... By the way no need to be rude, I could read a lot of biased mis-informed logic in your post also but wouldn't have been so crass as to mention it if you hadn't first shown your lack of manners.

[Captain White]

:p
My My shortly, a touch hot under the collar.........

HIALS is most assuredly correct & it is unfair of you to criticise him personally. I must add that you seem to be just another CX lackey pushing the conspiracy theory !!!

Do not make the mistake of thinking that KA was gifted its routes by CX as a chiritable action, that would be naive !

And by the way, from where I sit DRAGONAIR IS the flag carrier !!!

;)

[shortly]

Correct in what context? Are you Dragon guys being obtuse on purpose. My only question was and is - why did Dragon so ardently not want a public hearing? No answer to that just a lot of sideways spin. And yes it was a charitable donation from big to little brother at the time, and that little money spinner at the opposite end of Taiwan from Taipei as well. Threat to CX - in your dreams. Dumped any more fat people lately - good press that.

[raitfaiter]

Shortly,is there no end to your perfidy? Once again let me correct your misinformation.....CX HAD to 'give' away its lucrative Beijing and Shanghai routes in return for the rump of CAAC applying (and automatically reiceiving) a licence to fly internatinally from Hong Kong. This was not done in the spirit of lets help the little guy but a sound business decision on the Swine groups behalf. Now,as ever CX wants to have its cake and eat it....ie fly within China, having finally seen that it has given away the crown jewels, and to use its international connections to take its pax and freight onwards. Sure NOW it wants a public forum....no doubt to show KA as the bad guy.....but these aint the facts.:p

[shortly]

Raitfaiter, my perfidity, that's a laugh. Your perfunctory and incorrect assertions do not gel with the truth, or maybe just a little bit. But aren't they the best lies? Those with an element of truth. Back to the question, why didn't Dragon want to be humiliated in public or is that the answer?

[raitfaiter]

One entry found for perfidy.
Main Entry: per·fi·dy
Pronunciation: 'p&r-f&-dE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -dies
Etymology: Latin perfidia, from perfidus faithless, from per- detrimental to + fides faith -- more at PER-, FAITH
Date: 1592
1 : the quality or state of being faithless or disloyal : TREACHERY
2 : an act or an instance of disloyalty

Perfidity= undereducated Swineboys efforts.....perfidy seems to fit you like Shanghai tailors suit Shortly;)

[pontius's pa]

Yea well Raitfaiter, I assume that your last post might have made sense to an etymologist, (it took me so long to look up that word I have forgotten what I was going to say)

Ah yes, now I remember.

Wah. so much emotion over a local spat.

It seems to me that the biggest losers in any strife between CX and KA would be a non majority but major shareholder in both companies that is not in itself an airline company

Maybe you should look there for the peacemaker than than cast aspersions on either side.

The real question is who instructed Steven Ip to get involved?, The most inappropriate intervention by government for some years.

But there you go

[HIALS]

I quite agree that the 'non-majority, major shareholder in both CX & KA' is the broker of the deal to codeshare. CNAC & Swire are on a collision course, it would seem, and CITIC would prefer them not to fight.

The original question posted by Shortly (dripping with arrogant condescension and oblique insults regarding the holiness (sic) of Dragonair) regarded the motion to postpone the ATLA hearing and to hold private talks.

Well, it's all old news now because the ATLA Chairman declined the applications (both from CX & KA) and the hearing starts today.

So - let's wait and hear the outcome in order to determine if KA (or CX or the HKG Govt or even ATLA) are going to be 'humiliated'...