so guys, where is this "pilot shortage"? I am still waiting to see it.
what do u think, guys?

Last pilot shortage was in 1940.

If you are looking for lets say, high houred 737 C&T captains, there might be a bit of a shortage..... I think you'll get my drift.

With thousands on furlough, news of a pilot shortage is bull$hit.

There is no such thing as a pilot shortage. This is something the flying schools talk about when they are running out of ideas on how to get your buisness.

OWNER to CFI: "Were going to have to use the pilot shoratge trick on this one".

"Massive retirements" is another one.

There is a shortage of quality people however. The number of new CPL's that just sit in a capital city and then throw it in after noone replies to their letters is astonishing. Or the number of people who actually turn down jobs before going out and having a look is another big one.

There is a shortage of nurses not pilots.

Can't see myself climbing into a Nurse's uniform and that's after a few pints too! :)

If there was a nice girl nurse in that nurses uniform... I'd gladly climb in that uniform, in a instant!... and thats without the couple of pints! :D :D :D

haha, stop dreaming, there is NO way that pilot shortage is happening for the next few years.
So go find another job or continue to flipp burgers for the next few years and maybe, just maybe you´ll get a flying job if you´re lucky.
If you get tired of the burger business, the malls always want securityguards with CPL/IFR, 1000+ hrs, frozen ATPL and all that stuff that make a good securityguard...

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

There is a pilot shortage in the UK. Its in the RAF and its there own silly fault.

Cheers,

WWW

We had an instructor vacancy for 6 months earlier this year but not one PILOT bothered to ring or even better knock on our door.
Finally WE had to find a PILOT amongst this huge shortage to fill the vacancy.
Their are jobs,i've changed jobs 3 times in two years,one because the school went under and another to follow my wife.
It's amazing what you can get if you get off your arse and look for it.
My second job came after 1200 miles of driving and knocking on doors in 3 days visiting 21 airfields and god knows how amny schools.
I suppose some might think instructing is below them and they are done with small aircraft,think again if you have just finished your CPL/IR.your a new boy and as best described by an old CFI i had "wet behind your ears".
I too was insulted,how dare he with 40 years of experience tell me a CPL with 250 hrs my business!!!
Their is a shortage of matured graduate pilots who have at least some experience and general awareness,very unfashionable i know as the hour building route has been lets say ,"sold" as no longer part of getting a right hand seat job.
Their is no experience like experience so with the new year arriving my advice to getting your first job is to to book yourself on a good FI course and at least get on the ladder.
Good luck and happy new year

Im glad that some pilots think instructing is beneath them! Theres not much worse than an instructor who only cares about getting hours in his log book at the cost of the student!:mad:

Unfortunatly some FTOs dont treat (or pay) their instructors to well, So there is a SHORTAGE OF PILOTS who really do just want to teach people how to fly!:(

I am surprised to see posts that seem to imply that it takes a "Pilot shortage" to get a job. It might help but it is by no means a requirement.

During periods of rapid economic expansion shortages of skilled (and unskilled come to that ) labour often arise. It follows that Airlines have in the past had to take on large numbers of Pilots in a short period of time. This has occaisonally resulted in the situation where it seems that Airline jobs for low hour pilots have been more plentiful than is the norm. Traditionally most Airlines recruit from Three sources: The military, The skilled labour market ( other airlines/ air taxi companies / corporate flying etc ) , and the training school / low hour market.

Most companies buy the best they can get for the lowest cost. This means they recruit from the first 2 sources as a preference ( in most cases ). Large companies and in times of high demand also recruit from the third source although to a much smaller degree. Experienced Pilots are not as inflexible as some of you might like to believe and in any event they tend to keep the insurance companies happier.

However this shouldn't discourage low hour pilots and those training for professional licences. There are jobs available in aviation that will allow you to aquire the experience levels to move through the system. Of course there is still likely to be intense competition for all jobs and I am not suggesting that any particular route is easy. If you are determined and prove it through your own efforts you really stand a fair chance of acheiving your goals.

Another myth I often read is this "retirement bulge". The reality is that again in some years there may be more retirements than in others. Of course that may also occur in a period of economic downturn and go totally un-noticed. The truth of the matter is that these predicitions often fail to take into account the fact that Pilots don't all stay in work until their normal retirement dates. As in the rest of the population some will die early, some will retire early due to ill health, some will change careers, some will move to other markets ( abroad, managerial changes etc). This tends to have a much more levelling effect on the projections than the headlines would have you believe.

Aviation is a very diverse collection of careers. For some pilots ( not all by any means ) an Airline job is seen as the pinnacle of their career. If this is the case it is achievable by many routes, most will involve working your way through the apprenticeship level jobs. Some will involve a career change from one professional course to another ( eg Military to Civil ). A few will be lucky enough to get a fast track into an Airline career.

Whatever you decide or fate may hand you, those that go out and get the licence, then look for any work that helps them progress, and then maintain the determination to suceed. adapting as necessary are the people most likely to succeed and to posess the skills that will enable them to get to where they want to be.

On the other hand waiting around for "pilot shortages or squabbling about who has Degrees or HSBC loans, or hand wringing the fact that Airlines are not tripping over themselves to offer First Officer jobs in shiny new jets to low houred pilots, makes for interesting reading but isn't likely to change to the world or to achieve anything very tangible.

Well said JD!

Having said that, I think a lot of wannabe's do have fair excuse to vent their frustration over this mythical 'predicted pilot shortage', because there are so many flying schools who make extravagant references to it in their marketing literature, and we were all suckered into believing it when we started off on this flying lark.

I would like to make it compulsory for anyone contemplating a career in aviation and reading all the glossy material from the schools, to also be forced to read this website for a couple of months before parting with any money.

I had to laugh at the front cover of Flight today:

'Forecasts 2003 - And you thought this year was bad...!' :)

Is the retirement rumour thats being spoken about here, the one about vietnam vets? Or a completly different one?

Mister Geezer, yeah, I was all fired up with enthusiasm and positive thoughts 'till I unwrapped Flight this morning.:(
At least I have a free year planner with a shiny Airbus on it.:)

Hi everyone

Wish you all Happy New Year 2003

I hope that 2003 will bring us joy and pride of all our hard work and hard earn money spent to get a Pilot Licence.

We all are in the same boat trying to get back in the flying business so we don't have to dish out more and more our own money to keep the Licence current, which also keep the CAA happy.

I would urge all the guys to share information and help each other to over come the stress of not having a flying job.
I would also request the readers, those who have access to Employment Updates from BALPA, IPA and Co-Pilot Publication to share with others, those who are unfortunate to have these details.
good luck finding a flying job in 2003. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :) :)

I'm all for people helping each other, but if the Co-Pilot information was given out on this forum, they would proberbly go under.

There is, and will be, no 'pilot shortage' as such, at least within UK. There is, however, usually a shortage of high-quality, experienced pilots. There will always be more Wannabes than jobs for low-houred pilots. Only those with exceptional resourcefulness, determination and luck are likely to succeed.

The employment updates issued by BALPA, the IPA and Co-Pilot are paid for by the members of those organisations and are copyrighted. I will not allow them to be 'pirated' here without the express pernission of the copyright owners. Membership of these organisations is cheap for a wannabe - and should be considered compulsory, if you're serious about job-seeking in UK!

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
scroggs@<hidden>

There is, and will be, no 'pilot shortage' as such, at least within UK.
Is the retirement rumour thats being spoken about here, the one about vietnam vets? Or a completly different one?

The rumour im refering to is the one that goes:

In the USA a large number of commercial pilots were trained by the military during vietnam (A) (H). The majority of these pilots are or are coming to retirement age, thus there will be some openings for new pilots.

I heard this story before 9/11 but it does make some sense (I think). Any thoughts anyone?

HAPPY NEW YEAR!:D

The good people at Co-Pilot, the IPA and even Balpa certainly don't need their work undermined and job threatened by people stealing their material here. It happened quite a bit back in the good old days when the forum moved to this format. It was stamped on then.

I have been and remain amazed by serious Wannabes who do not subscribe the the aforementioned 3 channels of information and assistance. I know people with CPL/IR's Frzn ATPLs who are looking for work and DON'T subscribe to Co-Pilot, AREN'T members of the IPA and have never even considered JOINING Balpa.

Often they are the people who vaguely "just read PPRuNe a bit".

You can be do all the above for under a £100 a year and frankly if you are any way past the PPL stage you should be doing so.

I still get the Co-Pilot newsletter to keep in touch with whats happening out there...

I know of 2 people who got jobs directly from attending the Balpa Employment Conference. I know someone who now flies very big metal in the Middle East who got his first job by receiving the Co-pilot newsletter from the postman at 8 o'clock. He read that a tiny turbprop freight operator at an airfield 100 miles away was maybe kinda looking for perhaps one - maybe two - FO's, applications should be posted to blah blah...

He jumped in his clapped out Nissan (I sold him it so I know). He was sweet talking the Bosses secretary at 9.30 that morning, got a 10 minute interview by 10.00 and was on a type course the following week. He never looked back.

Information is power.

WWW

There will never be a Pilot shortage in the UK cos we let every Tom,Dick and Harry apply or should it be Pierre Fritz etc thanks to EU rules even non EU from places like Iceland and Norway get in and before everyone says it works both way we all know in practice it does not and with more countries joining EU and UK was the only country to let all these new countries come and take our jobs{not just in flying!!} straight away,

Employers dont give a damn who they take so long as it saves them money.Look at the way the UK Armed Foirces buy most of their meat from overseas,this would not happen in France or Germany thats for sure.

2wings There are thousands of pilots furloughed (laid off) in the USA right now. United is about to add many more to that number. If every ex-Vietnam pilot still flying (remember, Vietnam ended over 30 years ago) stopped tomorrow, it wouldn't make much of a dent in the pilot unemployment figures over there.

millerscourt been on the sauce have you? I would expect someone with your apparent experience (A340 captain, apparently) to have a more reasoned and balanced argument. As it is, your knowledge of European employment law seems a bit less developed than your invective. Check out this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76387) to get a broader perspective.

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
scroggs@<hidden>

WWW (or anyone else)

Can you post details of how to subscribe to the Co-pilot newsletter? Your private message box is full.

cheers!
foggy.

I have been searching tonight, and I found this link:-

http://www.avasp.com/world/media.shtml

Which lists:-

Copilot Newsletter (£74.95 Annually)
Tel: ++ 44 (0)1903-879910
Fax: N/A


Dave

Scroggs No I have not been on the sauce! I am well aware of EU employment regulations and that is my point as we in UK are now no longer able to look after our own people and it is a totally one way traffic of pilots coming to UK at the expense of Brits who are unemployed be they Pilots or whatever because Employers don't give a toss about who they employ but merely save money by not training our own people. Airlines in Europe who have been subsidised by their taxpayers for years are now dumping Pilots onto the UK market.

Also we have all those from places like Canada,Australia. New Zealand who have dual passports, who can pick and choose where they work at will again to the detriment of the locals.IMHO one should not be allowed more than one passport so that there is a' level playing field'

As I said with more countries joining EU soon and UK is the country that is allowing all those residents the right to work in UK compared to all the others having in the main a 7 year waiting period it is no wonder that UK is seen as a 'soft touch'.

My concern is for all those young people 'Brits' who want to get into aviation and are really keen to do so but who stand little chance for all of the above reasons.

This does not affect me personally as I am gainfully employed and retire in 6 months so I have no axe to grind in that respect!

Scroggs

PS A little less fatuous remarks in your comments would not go amiss!

The only shortages that we will see in the foreseeable future are ones that can be described as 'isolated'. For example, airline X might be short of people at Base Y or slightly short of people on a particular fleet and this will happen in a few cases during 2003. However I think that a national shortage is not on the horizon!

millerscourt: I'm sorry, but your first post had more rant than reason (and little punctuation), and your reference to 'Pierre, Fritz, etc' was the sort of thing that I hear expounded in my local pub sometime after last orders have been called. If this is you at your sober best, I stand corrected!

To attempt to counter your arguments, however, experience and anecdotal evidence would suggest that there are at least as many UK national pilots working overseas as there are non-nationals working in UK - and, historically, the balance was very substantially in the UK's favour. EU employment law is not new, nor does it contain any innate disadvantages for the UK (unless you count our collective reluctance to learn other languages as a 'disadvantage'). The UK Government's very recent announcement that it would soon accept workers from those nations about to be admitted to the EU is a potential problem if it's not managed well, but that's yet to be proven.

Such pilot employment problems as exist in UK (the busiest aviation employment market outside the US) have far more to do with the general economic malaise than any invasion of foreign labour. I'm sure you are a BALPA member, and thus will be aware of their efforts to monitor this very subject - particularly in respect of wet-leasing.

In short, I felt that your somewhat intemperate response to this thread was born more of reactionary reflex than careful study - but I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.

Sgroggs There you go again with fatuous remarks re punctuation and rant ings which diminish your argument totally. Similarly those who make comments re contributor's spelling I treat with same contempt.

You are quite wrong by saying there are more UK Pilots working in EU than the other way around. I guess you are talking about ex-pats working in other parts of the world where historically there have always been an abundance of Brits ,although this is rapidly declining as ex-pat contracts decline in value . This is irrelevant to my argument which is about the EU only and the issue of dual passport holders coming to UK to work at the expense of locals.

Expats are on contracts which can be terminated for no reason and one has to leave the country and one only gets jobs there in the first place because of a skill shortage amongst the locals in whatever country that is applicable.
Once again the invasion into the UK is totally one way as far as the EU is concerned and at the expense of uk pilots who otherwise would be taken on and given a rating instead of which the abundance of rated 'foreigners' get the jobs instead. Fact not Fiction. Your comments regarding 'language' are irrelevant.English is the language of Aviation and Business and we to some extent are paying the price of that.

I am not anti Europe but anti EU as we have all been conned by the politicians over the years as I am sure most people who voted to join the EU thought we were just entering an extension of EFTA and merely joining a larger free trade area ,instead of which we have a monster of a bureaucratic empire of unelected civil servants where fraud and subsidies are taking place on a massive scale. Just look at all the subsidies still be being paid to many EU Airlines. The only countries that obeys the rules are the UK and the other Northern Countries. THe rest like France ,Italy,Greece abuse the system totally

This will be my last comment on this topic as the wider issue of the EU is not quite appropriate for this forum. Perhaps at least we can agree on that 'Scroggs'?!
Scroggs
PS Maybe you have been in the Pub just once too often at closing time me thinks!

Scoggs Oh my God I have just noticed I did not put a full stop at the end of one of my paragraphs.I hope that does not offend you and mean yet another fatuous sarcastic remark from you!!

IMHO one should not be allowed more than one passport so that there is a' level playing field'

Said as only a mono passport holder can.:p

MAX:cool:

millerscourt: My points re your writing style were confined to your first post, as you will see if you read my posts again. You may find such comments contemptible, but your first post was totally undermined by your writing style. If you have a serious point to make, surely it's worth making sure that what you write is clearly understandable? If you are offended by my intimation that you may have been 'under the influence', I'm sorry, but too many posts on here are!

As for your points, I do understand your point of view but, without any figures to back it up, it's difficult to argue constructively. The fact is the EU exists, it didn't just arrive yesterday, and any problems that its existence brings about have been totally predictable.

As for the subject of this or any other thread in Wannabes, we have to deal here with the world as it is, not how we would like it to be. If you have an axe to grind re the EU's effect on the UK aviation market, I think it would be better expressed elsewhere as it is not in the slightest bit helpful to those here who are currently looking for jobs.

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
scroggs@<hidden>

Scroggs and millerscourt. I think you chaps need crewing to roster you both on a Narita so that you can debate until your hearts content. (assuming millerscourt works for VS as well... not many UK 340 operators that spring to my mind!!!) :D

I agree with Millerscourt (on many points) particularly the employment rules of the UK are at the detriment of UK nationals; with the expansion of the EU, it is going to get even tougher, since in my own experience, it does not work the other way round.

This is not xenophobic comment, rather UK business' will tend to attempt to hire the better person for a job - which includes factors to do with the bottom line. Certain other EU countries will hire people because they are a national, rather than the foreigner - regardless of the bottom line. The UK stance is often interpretted as political correctness, and is completely lost (in my experience) on certain countries - mostly in S. Europe.

WWW

Whilst I agree that joining the meberships you have talked about is worthwhile, i.e. for BALPA to protect you if you do manage a job, I have to say that having been a member for some years I have yet to find any 'job' information that was highly relevant to low hours pilots. I agree that the employment product is fascinating for the overall info on the industry - I have yet to see information that is for the low hours. By this I am talking about advice etc..

I am more than happy to pay the 2 pound a month which has been introduced because I am intending on using the BALPA services WHEN i get a job. However, I do beg the question - could they be doing more for the low hours? Maybe a database for them??

Could anyone post a web link for the co-pilot organisation?

Cheers;)

no sponsor. I suspect that Scroggs is one of those benefitting from the system and is perhaps a non Brit or one with a Dual Passport??

I heard he was born in Kenya from a Welsh father and a Polish mother. At least 3 passports, then - and he's well known as a complete git;)

There a quite a few UK commander and copilots working here in Austria. (Very professional, very good standards). So far I don´t no of any Austrian pilot working in the UK.

All of this is valid argument - but would it not be better to focus the ire of the UK community onto the failing standards of our schools etc. Surely it is there where the languages are best developed and learnt to ensure that we do not remain a mono-language island.

Maybe French and Spanish should become at the least core languages to be taken through to 18 then more would be encouraged to continue it to university. Have a look at the christmas economist edition which highlights the number of university language departments which have had to close due to lack of interest.

Sure the english language nature (or more so american) of the media does make it easier for the europeans to learn english but should that not just make us more determined to learn other languages.

Gracias et Merci
;)

Digitalis No wonder Scroggs was so vitriolic about my comments if you are correct about his background.

Cricketer Your comments are irrelevant as far as flying jobs are concerned as English is 'the language' full stop.

maxrpm Yes those Pilots in Austria are on Panamanian contracts paid offshore tax free,totally illegally!!

I do not mind to learn a language to fly for a non UK airline, but , the hic is: we must speak the langauge before to apply.
it means if I apply for a job in europe, I must speak all european languages.
I know already 3, But I can not learn swedish for SAS, spanish for Iberia,just to apply! ...it take at least one year to be fluent, can take 3-4 years for some people.

and in France, what do they do? they dont accept any JAA licenses done outside of the country even if you speak french, but the CAA lets french pilots fly in UK with a license done in france.what is this #####?

Crazy Europe!!!

millerscourt, have you always been a tosser, or is it a recent development? ;)

Speaking as a controller someone may need to tell the Spaniards that English is the language Pilots speak.They are bloody bad and i would not fancy trying to give one anything more complicated than climb/descend etc.
Also regarding non Brits flying over here, well i hear a lot every time im at work and they dont fly for mainland European Carriers.

Gatsby Once debate reduces to your level of abuse without anything else concrete to add then it is time to close this topic.
Any individual such as you who can only make offensive remarks without adding anything to the topic merely makes you the 'tosser'

gatsby Opinions are like 'A***holes, everyone has one. However your comments re millercourt are not helpful as any a**hole can make rude remarks which are totally unconstructive and show a fairly low level of intelligence.

From what I read of millercourts remarks he seems to be saying that 'Brits' should come first in UK in the same way as for example French come first in France etc etc. I can not see what is wrong with that and Yes I am well aware that in the EU rules this is not supposed to happen anymore but we all know that certain countries in the EU do exactly what they want to do with impunity.

I similarly agree that people should only have the right to ONE Passport instead of cherry picking which one to pull out of the drawer to suit their particular need of the day.

Enough bickering. Don't call people here tossers please a ban may offend.

Thread locked.

WWW