Be prepared immediate?

[FlapsOne]

As I understand it, being cleared immediate T/O when not yet lined up means line up and take off without delay. That's fine.

But what do you guys genuinely expect when we get the clearance "...behind landing 737 3 mile finals, line up be prepared immediate."

We can't do anything until the landing aircraft has cleared the rwy so what's required here?

Having sat there for 20 secs or so, we're hardly likely to wait another minute or so after receiving T/O clearance so why use the 'immediate' call?

Not having a dig by the way, just keen to know why it happens.

[vintage ATCO]

It conveys the sense of urgency if it is going to be tight, you may roll immediately, not everyone does! :D And it gives you the opportunity to tell us if you are not going to be ready for an immediate, problem in the cabin, etc. :)

Happy Christmas

[Greebson]

Yes, I agree, it means approach have probably stuffed them in fairly tightly; and if you don't want to wait until a second aircraft lands then it's ar#e into gear and be prepared to go the moment we say cleared for take off. It takes a little less time for you to depart when already lined up.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Having sat there for 20 secs or so, we're hardly likely to wait another minute or so ......>>

You may not, sir... but others...........

Remember the old story from Chicago - blinding snow and a certain British aeroplane received a similar instruction. As the lander turned off the runway - seen by ATC and not the British chap - ATC said "*** cleared immediate take-off". Mr Bulldog said: "We'd prefer to wait just a minute or so until we can see the runway is clear". ATC replied: "*** just shift your ass"... whereupon he did just that!!

[FlapsOne]

I take your points.

Personally I would never accept a line up clearance unless the pre-take off checks were complete - and that includes the cabin of course.

On the same issue, many take off clearances at LGW this week seem to have included reference to landing traffic ie: Clear Take off, landing traffic 3 miles. Same message with different words perhaps?

Seems like a bit of overkill to me. I can only move a 737 so fast.

[j17]

Flaps One

Being Christmas day take what I have to say with not to much of a serious note. When I clear you for an immediate t/o, I give you the range of the landing traffic when within 4 miles from t/down, so that you are aware of the impending air display if you do not go . Therefore when given an immediate t/off make sure;

1 you are sitting comfortably

2your chamois or white gloves are on

3 you Raybans are clean and on

Whan cleared to go you go,

[vintage ATCO]

FlapsOne, it's the same, only different. :D Just conveys the urgency of the situation. OK, you get your A into gear and get going, not all do. But I'd rather know when the inbound is around 2nm rather coming over the hedge with the departure still half way down the runway!

[where's my sig??]

[FlapsOne]

j17

I was born wearing clean raybans and the white gloves never come off!

Sitting comfortably in a 737 is a challenge (especially the NG).

Don't misunderstand me please guys. If I am lined up and cleared for take off, immediate take off, or take off- landing traffic at 3 miles, my actions are exactly the same - power on and go. It's impossible to do that any quicker.

The only difference to me would be if given line up and immediate take off whilst at the holding point. Then I can accelerate things a little.

If any guys do delay on the runway, for anything other than a problem/hazard of some kind, then they need to examine their own procedures perhaps.

Happy Christmas All.

[j17]

Flaps one

Taken in the spirit, seasons greetings and hopefully a prosperous new year.

[FlapsOne]

j17

Thank you and the same to all you hard working controllers out there.

[Impi]

What has worked for me (have received no complaints) is : "After landing 737 line up and power up on the breaks.."

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I was born wearing clean raybans and the white gloves never come off! >>

Ahh, a man after my own heart. But.. what I found REALLY pulled the birds was my Reliant Robin in which I used to drive to Heathrow...

[vintage ATCO]

What has worked for me (have received no complaints) is : "After landing 737 line up and power up on the breaks.."

I'd just like to see my LCE's face if I used that! :D

[eyeinthesky]

Quote:

What has worked for me (have received no complaints) is : "After landing 737 line up and power up on the breaks.."

Unquote.

Strange... the only thing I do on my breaks is power down with a cup of tea. I suppose you meant BRAKES!

But seriously, we all know how important it is not to lose your place in the queue at the holding point, so I am sure there have been occasions when you have taxied into position on the threshold as you are still finishing the final checks. If you do this, the last thing the Tower controller wants to hear when he clears you for takeoff with one at 2 miles is "We're not QUITE ready". Hence the pointer that you had better move those throttles smartly when cleared unless you want a close look at the underside of one going around above you.

The result of an aircraft slow to roll with an arrival over the hedge was rather frighteningly displayed at Heathrow a while back with a BA 747 and a Midland (then) 737:eek: :eek:

At least the instruction you question lets you know exactly what is expected of you.

[AlanM]

Wasn't it an A321 of BM's?

[eastern wiseguy]

alan the point remains valid whether or not you score points for accuracy.I had a very similar situation with a Bac1-11 and a Boeing757(same company) 1-11 cleared for immediate lined up ....sat there and then needed another "minute for the cabin" .I learned a valuable lesson that day.:rolleyes: I ALWAYS check if they are ready immediate now...I hate paperwork!!!

[ATCO Two]

AlanM, yes it was an A321, but what the heck.

Impi, not standard phraseology and as an LCE I would be on your case!! Interestingly enough a similar phrase was used in the incident referred to. Such an instruction should never be necessary and is a sign that you are playing it too tight. If the spacing is not sufficient then tell approach - the tower controller is the arbiter of the final approach spacing.

TRUCE for 2003 at Heathrow will concentrate on the problems associated with single runway operations, both in the classroom and the simulator. LCEs will be delivering a presentation covering all aspects of the subject over the next few weeks. Whatever FlapsOne thinks, we will be recommending the "be prepared immediate" phraseology. It adds urgency to the instruction and helps the pilots with situational awareness. Hopefully lessons will be learned and our service levels in single runway operations will improve. And before anyone from a busy single runway airport chips in, prolonged single runway operations at Heathrow is not a common event and neither the pilots nor controllers have enough practice of it to be really proficient. It is a non-standard occurrence and should be treated as such.

[Bombay Bad Boy]

FlapsOne...

I think the major reason controllers use "be prepared immediate" is because nearly every controller has had their fingers burnt the time they haven't stressed the urgency of the situation.

I can understand your point of view that your reactions will be the same, and to me and you, it sounds good common sense.

But on the other hand, I would wager that if I am looking for a departure to be pretty smartish between arrivals, THEN the time i dont stress the urgency will be the time that the inbound FK100 within 4nms (dont know why, but they always seem to cop it) goes around.

thanks for your input.

BBB

[radar707]

Don't know how true this is but I heard a story of a controlle at an airport in the south of England instruct and a/c to:

"Commence high speed taxy along the runway, take of clearance shortly"

[Muppit]

The reason for the 'be prepared immediate' and 'landing traffic 3 miles, cleared for take off..' is to increase the situational awareness of the crews.

And it's not just been in use at LGW this week; I've been using it since I arrived from LHR 4 years ago, and the training section teach it as standard.

It's succinct, accurate and it works.

Fantastic
:D

[Capt Pit Bull]

There is an element of rods for our own backs here.

Standard procedure is to report ready for departure. Then at busier airfields, e.g. LGW as mentioned above, you are instructed to monitor, not contact, tower.

Hence unless some kind of 'be ready immediate' instruction is given, or 'are you ready immediate' question is asked, there is going to be the possibility that the aircraft is not ready. So what we see is this:

Due frequency workload, one piece of standard RT is removed ("Callsign, Ready for departure"). By so doing, situations are created that require the creation of additional routine calls by ATC.
Net result? more scope for errors, little if any change in RT workoad.

Obviously, anyone clued will keep tracks on the inbounds and inform tower that they are not ready as they are given their line up instruction, rather than waiting till on the runway. But even so, its likely to upset towers game plan.


Similarly, when checking in with tower from approach, I was trained to report my position, to improve everyones situational awareness. E.G. "Callsign, 6 dme" or somesuch. Now, we are routinely instructed to contact tower with callsign only, so when we check in aircraft at the holding point do not immediately know where we are unless ATC tell them. So...... ATC have to tell them.

So again, argueably we are not actually reducing total RT traffic, but just piling it up on the ATCO.


I don't really have a bone to pick about this, its no biggie, I'm just in contemplative mode.

CPB

[FlapsOne]

I only raised this point to get some clarification of something I have noticed more and more recently. It may well have been in place for some years but I'm definately hearing it more often thesedays.

It also hightlights another matter - namely the ever increasing differences between UK and other European procedures.

I've never (I don't think) heard such calls outside of the UK.

Likewise that old chestnut of always being cleared for Localiser then Glidepath - as separate clearances in UK, but overseas simply being cleared for the ILS when on an intercept heading. I've read many attempted explanations but, quite frankly, they don't make sense and simply clog up the RT at busy airports. A delayed ILS clearance due excessive RT can put you high - pointless really.

The simple solution the original problem - don't accept a line up clearance untill pre take off checks (or equivalent) are complete. Then you are always ready immediate.

[chiglet]

Right then Petals,
At Manch last year.
ATC..."XXX12, ready immediate?" "XXX12, affirm" "Roger, landing traffic 3 miles cleared IMMEDIATE take off".....a/c lines up and THEN says... XXX12, We need a minute for the engines:rolleyes: :confused: . Next tx..."VVV99 go around, I say again go around"
Immediate....Hmmmm
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[FlapsOne]

chiglet

Either the guy was a git (probable) or he had some minor problem with the engines that had only just developed (unlikely, but possible).

In any event, the immediate call didn't make the slightest difference to the sequence of events.

[Muppit]

Another reason we use such phraseology is so that we 'own' the r/t at critical moments.

By adding the 'landing traffic...' part to the take off clearance, we can spool out the moment and launch the departure at just the right time, reducing the ability of someone else transmitting at a critical point.

Last year, a B752 departed on a SAM, inbound checked in at 7nm. BA146 on a SAM given line up & wait as it's a 2 minute departure separation.
Just as the ATCO was about to launch the BA146, the inbound started discussing ILS fluctuations and didn't stop talking until he was at 2nm.
The ATCO replied that no fluctuations had been reported and that he should go around I say again go around acknowledge.
A very surprised missed approach was carried out:eek:

[Scott Voigt]

Flaps One;

Come to the US, you will here be ready for an Immediate quite a bit at busy airports...

regards

Scott

[contact_tower]

my actions are exactly the same - power on and go.

To bad that some pilots is less effektive ....... ;)

I have som unpleasant experiences with C-130s, callsign "Ascot" :D

[AlanM]

Be fair - the RAF C130's have 4 elastic bands to wind up!!

[Eggs Petition]

Flaps,

having worked in Europe and the UK I must say I couldn't agree more about the split phraseology in the UK for the ILS intercept. It wastes time in a busy environment and is outdated in my view. Worth a separate topic? Anyone from SRG reading this like to explain to me why we persist with this difference in the UK?:confused:

I disagree with you, though, about "...be ready immediate..." I heard it used regularly by my european colleagues. It is clear and concise and effective. It is sad but true that many pilots DO NOT roll without delay when cleared. We like to let you know when we are playing it a bit tight. It raises your situational awareness and makes it very clear what we NEED from you. We do our best to shift traffic. We are trying to get you airborne/on the deck asap. It makes us very unhappy bunnies when some pilots sit and dawdle on our runways.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Warped Factor]

Eggs,

having worked in Europe and the UK I must say I couldn't agree more about the split phraseology in the UK for the ILS intercept. It wastes time in a busy environment and is outdated in my view. Worth a separate topic? Anyone from SRG reading this like to explain to me why we persist with this difference in the UK?

We got a phraseology change a little while ago that now allows us to say, before you've reported established on the localiser, "when established on the localiser, descend on the ILS".

Not quite what you're looking for but, when used appropriately, should stop those situations where you're left hanging above the glide because you can't get in to say loc established and receive the all important "descend on the ILS" in return.

Works for me at EGLL.

WF.

[LYKA]

How about

" turn right heading 240 clearedILS 27r Contact the tower at 4 miles"

?:p