Engineers

[Hairyplane]

Can I appeal to the engineers out there for some advice on the following?

I bought a brand new aircraft - 4 seats/ 180 - last year.

I have been 100% loyal to my maintenance facility since - nobody has touched my aircraft.

The facility is like an operating theatre, the engineers very polite and willing. Totally nice people.

So why have I gone elsewhere?

I wanted an 'early' 50 - hour pending a French trip and flew my aircraft in without any snags to report.

By sheer good fortune, the oil cooler - I was advised over the phone - suffered a catastrophic failure during the post-service ground run and left a 20ft oil slick on the apron.

THe engineer told me that it would have emptied the oil tank in 'just a few minutes.'

What luck! And I have never even won a decent raffle prize let alone the lottery!

When I turned up to collect, the new cooler was fitted, fat invoice waiting.

So - now, shall we say 'still happy but uncomfortable' with my engineers yet'staggered' at the coincidence- my expectations were that the CAA and the component manufacturer would be involved.

An enquiry regarding any possible warranty/ goodwill claim too?

Not a bit of it!

What did they do with the old cooler?

Binned it!

Did they file any report?

No.

Did they tell me of their intentions to dump the part let alone ask me if that was OK?

Er...No again.

This has been niggling me ever since. I then query another invoice - surely my right, especially as I was still fairly sensitive about the last one.

What happened?

A scribble across the top of the header of my comprehensive fax saying 'don't pay the invoice - take your work elsewhere.

So I did.

In view of the catastrophic failure of the part - one which would have led to a rapid engine failure - is there not a mandatory responsibility to inform the CAA?

What if the part was one of a defective batch and somebody ended up in a smoking hole as a consequence?

This sits very uncomfortably with me indeed......

HP

[Keef]

It's very hard to argue after the event.

Our maintenance folks know we want to see all removed/faulty parts (apart from oil filters, which they cut open anyway - and have on occasion shown to me anyway). They have pursued warranty claims on our behalf, and got refunds.

We had the "take your business elsewhere" treatment from another engineering outfit years ago in similar circumstances. We complained to the CAA, who told us they couldn't advise us, but they investigated anyway.

The outfit's "Approval" was withdrawn soon after - I'm told that was not just because of our complaint.

We asked around about engineers, and the advice we received was that there are reasonable ones, OK-ish ones, and dreadful ones. The best advice was to get to know the firm you use, make it clear to them that you want to know what's being done and to see the parts they replace, and give them a hard time if they screw up. And pay their bill very promptly - that's good for credibility.

We're extremely happy with the one we use now.

[Cyclic Hotline]

I think you were treated very poorly and deserve better from the facility that you paid to maintain your aircraft. Amongst other things I have done, I ran a Cessna Service Centre for some years (as an integral part of our business).

We always went to great lengths to ensure that we always understood and had the approval of the customer for anything we undertook to do. This was always done in writing, with estimated costs, and required additional (written)approval before any change to the basic workscope was initiated. The customer was always invited to come and look at anything that we found, so they had always knew what was happening and why. At the conclusion of all maintenance activities, all replaced parts were returned to the customer.

In the event of a failure of the type you describe above, it sounds as if the maintnenance facility has erred in the way they handled the problem, but wants to put the responsibility back on you. If the cooler failed under warranty, then there are entitled to expect the facility would have initiated the warranty process to procure a replacement, plus to reclaim the labour cost of a warranty replacement.

Dependent upon the type and cause of failure, you are equally correct to assume that the manufacturer (and others) would have an interest in what occurred to cause it to fail. Oil cooler failures are not particularly common. To actually dispose of a failed part is pretty strange, and tends to make me a little suspicious of the events that led to it's failure (at your expense). At the very least, this failure should have been reported to the manufacturer for review. Of course, if the warrnaty process had been completed, it is automatically going to be reviewed by the manufacturer!

For any business to "eat" the costs and tell you to go away, is not a very sound business pratice. We always figure that one disatisfied customer could destroy the goodwill that 100 satisfied customers could generate. We worked very hard to ensure that our customers were satisfied with our work and standards, and would always make a point of asking them and following up to make sure that it was. Not to say it always worked. We had our share of problems over the years, we always worked to remedy them, but it often left a bad taste in the mouths of both sides. I certainly had customers that I had resolved issues with in as courteous and satisfactory manner as possible, who were distinctly unwelcome in our facilities, and we would always be too busy to work on their equipment (the worst were some government agencies!).

I would suggest that you contact the owner of the facility directly and address your issues. They are pertinent and fair. Any self respecting business owner would discuss this issue, even if for some reason he disagrees with your position. There is a pretty good chance that he is either unaware of the issue, or the full facts of the matter. When you commit to pay for a service, you are entitled to expect full and fair treatment from the service provider.

As a footnote to all this.

We got out of the entire business of 3rd party aircraft maintenance, as it was simply not a viable business proposition for us. Dealing with Cessna was a nightmare, full of officious idiots and the whole company is run by "committees"!

The margins are so slim, and the risks so great, that we just decided to concentrate on our core business. It is the best thing we ever did. Trying to deal with owners of aircraft older than any viable vehicle on the road, who simply couldn't understand the corrosion, electrical or other system problems that occurred as a part of the age, condition or maintenance standards of their machine was extremely frustrating (its not my fault). I don't set the price on parts, nor the time to perform repairs, but we invariably had to eat all kinds of costs simply involved with the age and condition of the machine. Some of the requests and ideas for "cheap" repairs would blow you away - and that action would carry our name and liability!

Nah, I sleep easy now, and often wonder where that guy is, who told me that his typical annual cost him $25.00, is today?
:confused:

[Flyin'Dutch']

Bit odd isnt it. Customer unhappy about bill, and they tell them not to bother to pay it and go elsewhere. Not many businesses can afford to do this.

I would have thought that at the very least they should have contacted the manufacturer of the airframe and or oilcooler.

Obviously if you are concerned about the safety of a certain operation you can always contact the CAA and raise your concerns. They will no doubt be keen to hear from you and point you in the right direction.

Apart from not being particularly good practice to chuck a part away which needs replacing, it is also not theirs to do so; after all it is your property.

By the looks of things they may well have done you a favour.

FD

[Windy Militant]

Hairyplane, Not wishing to be alarmist but I'd be very interested in finding out the mode of failure to ensure that this problem does not reoccur. The failure of the oil cooler may be a symptom of problems elsewhere. Have the engine crankcase vent and the oil system pressure relief valve been checked. Oil coolers are fairly delicate items and if pressurised they split quite easily. However if the failure was caused by overfilling the engine with oil, or mechanical damage from foreign bodies, it would explain the subsequent behaviour.
Fly safely
WM

[Hairyplane]

Hi WM

Alarmist doesn't enter into it.

Ordinarily this is something that would surely have been fully investigated and the findings correctly promulgated.

Because the part was junked we wil only be able to rely on the theory of the engineer concerned.

Methinks we shouldn't rely on that.

THe opportunity to get to the exact cause has been lost through the irresponsible actions of others.

I will probably end up asking the CAA for their advice.

Genghis - do you have any views? I read your contributions with great interest.

HP

[A and C]

This Cooler should be subject to a warranty claim and if as you say the aircraft is less than a year old then I would be surprized if the manufacturer objects to this.

As chief engineer of a maintenance company I consider chasing such warranty claims as part of the service and find most supplyers quite open to genuine problems and would have expected the above problem to have been fixed on a parts and labour basis.

[Hairyplane]

Hi A&C,

Thank you for your response - it is appreciated.

The aircraft was 18 months old and the engine hours 200 when the fault occurred.

Lycoming O360.

I am getting a message loud and clear that the part should not have been junked prior to an investigation (apart from the fact that I was not asked for/ did not give my consent for it to be chucked away).

This failure had grave flight safety implications (I brought the 50 hour forward by 6 hours because I was flying the aircraft overseas, a trip involving various over-water legs.

HP