A degree for sponsorship

[mjkukin2]

Having just looked at a topic posted on one of the forums claiming most people dont have degrees and gained there ATPL/CPL, I am curious and can someone answer me this; how do airlines percieve this when students apply for sponsorship?

Do they prefer you to have a degree or does it not matter?

Does a degree help you prepare to sit the ATPL exams eg going through uni and having to cope with exams/asisgnments etc makes that person a more able candidate?

Do the airlines eg BA or Virgin think a uni graduate has more to offer in terms of being able to cope with pressure, deadlines, tasks compared to someone who has worked for the last couple of years?

And last of all mane airlines prefer the science/engineering based degrees, can anyone comment on this?

Appreciate the feedback

[Lucifer]

From the ones I know, no you do not need a degree, but it is an advantage to help you through tough exams, and through what you can gain in maturity whilst at university (or burn off immaturity!)

Bearing in mind that most of the competition will have a degree, especially as more and more young people are encouraged to go to university, and coupled with disadvantages if you were not to make it in the aviation world of not holding a degree, then it would be more beneficial to do one than not. Plus you meet people, do things you never otherwise could or join a UAS.

No they do not prefer science/engineering degrees, and in addition it would be foolish to do a degree based upon what you think they want you to hold: you must do what you are interested in or you will in all probability gain a lower classification than your potential further inhibiting yourself. Although it may help a little with inderstanding, ATPLs are not teaching you to be an aeronautical engineer, they are teaching you to be a pilot. Plus enough people do them without an engineering degree.

It all depends on the person what BA etc think of people, so you may be the best at 18 or beyond without a degree, but much competition from graduates who may be even better with the qualities you mention would inhibit you.

Most people in the past gained ATPL without a degree, but you have to look at what your competition is now doing, even though it is not a prerequisite.

[Grandad Flyer]

I totally agree with the above post with regards the current situation and particularly for sponsorships. However, just a point in case you say the same things in your interview - bear in mind that the person interviewing you may well not have a degree. Saying things about working under pressure, meeting deadlines, etc. only happens in Uni, er, I think you will find that there are many, many jobs where you would be under far more pressure than at Uni. Uni can be a doss, depending on what course you do which is probably why, if they require a degree, they specify that it has to be a good degree of the Science or Engineering type. Many people do good things with their time without having gone to Uni. This can be more relevant in some cases than going to Uni. Especially things like gap years - if you have done something good with a gap year it can show lots of excellent qualities such as motivation, self sufficiency, initiative, etc. This is why those who have studied via the self-improver/modular route are rarely biased against in interviews compared with CAP509ers. Its far easier to do a full time course and be lectured at than to get off your backside and put the effort in whilst also holding down a job.
Different people have different backgrounds and different skills. Pilots need to have a wide range of skills and are generally average at most things rather than being very good at just one thing.
The ATPL exams, well, having gone through Uni yes, you will know about the exam system but that is about it. It doesn't mean you are more able than someone without a degree, however, having a degree does obviously show that you can study for and pass exams. Having a degree doesn't mean you will be a good pilot.

[feetnkneestogether]

NO, as already explained you don't need a degree to apply for sponsorship or be a good pilot.

However, if you're asking whether it's better to go straight into flying rather than a University Degree, I always think, what if someone poked your eye out tomorrow ?!?!
No binocular vision, no flying career !
(insert any other medical disaster here)
.....and then where are you ?? !

Definitely worth qualifying yourself in another field as well.

Edit: Pie, I've just seen you're an Eng undergrad at UMIST so no worries for you then....

[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: feetnkneestogether ]</p>

[FL390]

Get the degree. Get it.

It will only take up three years of your life (depending on course). As F'n'KT says, if something does happen to you, hopefully it won't, but if it does, u really will find it a lot harder to find a decent job without a degree.

You will have great fun at university, probably get drunk every night, a have a new girlfriend for each day of the year! <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> :) The experience alone will be greatly beneficial.

Do something you enjoy, don't do aeronautical engineering just because you think it will help you with the course; you don't need it to fly an aircraft. You will find that if you are doing a course that you enjoy, you will probably do better at it anyway.

If you are fortunate enough to get sponsorship and eventually get a job, there is nothing to say that you will not get laid off....god forbid, another Sept 11th perhaps. <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> You will have a greater chance of getting another job, maybe not necessarily a flying job, but it will be a job.

Anyway, that's what I think about it! :) <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[mjkukin2]

FEETnKNEES and FL390

Thanks for your reply guys apprecite the info and yes FL i was thinking of doing a degree in aeronautical at UMIST but then after talking to several people who have also done the degree they say it wont help you a bit in achieiving pilot status so i took to chemical engineering.....i know that was the best choice as i real am enjoying the course.

hopefully if i do go for sponsorship and get it it will be a great relief as i dont have to dred going for bank loans or dipping into my dads pocket.....i want it too be entirely of my own doing

also i got a call from oxford today spoke to some lady very helpful she answered a few qs for me and i may be going down to check out the school...see what happens

[Captain Chaos 747]

If you are going for sponsorship get a degree it will show them you can study, but in all honesty all it is is a piece of paper I passed my ATPL's with my own hard work I have no A levels just 6 GCSE's and I managed to get a airline job after 11th of september.

I just prove the fact you don't need a higher education to be a pilot, you know the real reason that more people are advised to go to uni? I'll sum it up in one word 'MONEY' the more people who pass A levels go into uni the more money they get and that is what it's all about, exams are getting easier to make more people pass which equal more money for them.

This information is also from a lecturer at the local uni, it is a fact because so many graduates end up in Burger King working for £3.50 an hour, you know why they can't get the job they studied for because the employer knows they know ****** all and that is the way life is, but get the degree if you are looking for sponsorship because it will help you but that is it, you may pass the course but you may fail.

It's tough in the real world

[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Captain Chaos 747 ]</p>

[mjkukin2]

747

i agree with you on its not a requirement for you to holda degree but i disagree with you on the fact that exams are getting easier.firstly exams are getting easier in which way...well if you study history, geography etc social sciences then ill probably say yes, but if you have studied chemistry, maths, engineering maths physics then NO its an understatement these exams require knowledge, understanding and technique to get right. i dont see everyone studying these subjects....every individual cant do these exams

to prove it ill e mail you my copy of the engineering maths paper i just sat and by know means was it easy you cant just answer a qs ...there not all 1+2 =3 you know

sorry 747 but if you aint been there you wont understand

[mjkukin2]

and also 747 the new system that the education board has set up with leading examination centres for a levels is that if you fail your first year you resit, secondly you have to do 4AS levels in year 1 and to get into any of the good unis its a hell of a struggle. i know many people who cried there eyes out as they didnt make it into there chosen course

by the way all the top ten unis in britain probably had A level points on average per student between 26-30 points equivalent to ABB-AAA
for many courses especially medecine, denistry, engineering etc

[Captain Chaos 747]

pie I agree you do have to study to pass but the fact is it's all about money and the schools and university all want to make money.

I still have a old GCSE mock maths exam paper which I sat 10 years ago I saw a GCSE mock math from last year and I'm sorry but the one from last year was easier.

How come since the uni and schools can now make profit has their been a bigger jump up than normal in pass rates and that university's have introduced new degree's which lets be honest are stupid courses which require no A levels to enter, I would not be suprised if within 5 years they do courses in opening mars bars.

I see from your profile you are a student and I can understand that you want to defend it but when you enter the outside world it a whole diffrent ball game and I'm fed up of namby pamby pinko liberals students who complain about having it tough they would not know what tough is if it came up and smacked them in the face. Please don't think I'm slagging you off but the truth is a degree will show you can study which is great for the airlines which are going to pay but to the outside world you know ****** all.

I worked my guts out for my flight training paid for it myself balanced a job between studying that was tough, if I had the chance to do it all over again I would do it exactly the same way I have done it through the years and during my interview with the airline I work for they were more impressed with the way I did it than someone who had a degree in maths etc.

[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Captain Chaos 747 ]</p>

[mjkukin2]

747 some points for you just so you understand

1) GCSE are in no way equivalent to what you did or even i did a few years back, but GCSE are not what gets you a place at university...These exams are aimed at 15-16 year olds who wish to progress on and to study certain subjects at A level which determines if they are eligible to apply.

2) The content of work covered in your maths exam then and now or any exam,differs in respect that what you studied at GCSE for maths is incoperated into the new A level syllabus whish provides a sound knowledge to build on
so compare your maths exam to an A level paper

3) many more people are not going to university, the numbers have not increased and the reason for this is A) abolishment of student grants
b) introduction of uni fees

now if students complain then i say why not.in fairness many of them are studying and working to pay rent and cover living expenses.

one of my friends has just left as he cannot afford to work and study, some people do struggle...

4) the introduction of these new degrees are in my theory mostly being introduced by polytechnics..eg the david beckahm degree. yes i agree with you a complete waste of time and yeah sure they may be a degree in opening mars bars soon....LETS HOPE NOT

5) this sudden rise in students at uni is not true in that sense the exams are getting easier.
in fact whats happened is that many people are struggling to meet the high requiremnts required to obtain that place..so whens results come out the exam boards say blah Blah Blah the unis say well person X and y havent met our requirement so lets let them in

the reason for the universities doing this is there has been a decline in no of students applying each year and not meeting entrance requirments.if they dont fill a certain number of places each year the universities are not eligible for funding from the government or LEA.

i mean if they were meant to recruit 100 students and they didnt and only got 50 due to the reasons many of these courses dont get funded.

the end of last year there was an enquiry launched by the education comittee on why many universities broke there policies and lowered entry requirments.. reasons were as above.

many of the top 10-15 universites eg Oxford, cambridge, warwick, umist didnt alter there entrance requiremnts in the wake of this only wanting too attract high calibre students.

many of the people who wnated to go too these unis ended up being told too look else where whish in turn has resulted in a high drop out rate several factors were the student becoming depressed due to financial problems, being rejected from there first choice uni etc etc

i can lay down many points to you 747 bit this is only me expressing my opinion, but still i disagree with you on two things

exams are not getting easier and there are not more people going to uni

[SuperTed]

Hello "Pie in the Sky",

Basically you've got to agree with 747 here. It does boil down to money as everything in life does.

Exams are getting easier. This is a known fact. You look at A-Level Physics 10 years ago and you will find derivations and loads of calculus- fair enough its found in classical mechanics. However, todays syllabus focuses mostly on a qualitative aspects of the subject. This has been introduced to encourage students to take the subject in the first place as many hate the mathematical rigor previously associated with the subject.

The more students who pass GCSEs and A-Levels is an all win situation for everyone bar the employer. Firstly the students benefit because they come away with first rate results. The schools and teachers are happy because it shows that education is improving (rubbish!) the government is also happy because it shows that their policies are working. Well finally comes the employer. The employer finds that the kids who have gained handfuls of *A and A's can't even spell or add up!! Blo@@y marvelous, isn't it!! Hence come all the battery of aptitude tests and other toss.

A kid who gains *A's in todays subjects would obtain a few grades lower in the old 'O'-Level system. Basically whats happened is that the 'O'-Levels have simply become the 'A' Levels in todays system. Standards are slipping!!!

The government wants 50% of the population to go to University. This is totally crazy. All the government wants to do is for 50% of the populus to disappear for 3 or 4 years to stop unemployment figures from rising. Its just one big conveyor belt. Many graduates will end up like 747 says in jobs that do not require a degree i.e. Burger king. Also all these establishments gain money from having 'bums on seats' so they don't complain about accepting more students. All they are really doing a de-valuing the failing system by accepting students who should not be in further/higher education in the first place!

[mjkukin2]

if you look at the statistics many of these so called high calibre students are from rich backgrounds sending there kids to grammar/ boarding school etc...i mean i have no problem with that as my sisters go.now my point is that i think personally its like any highly recommended flying school. all the students do well..now isnt it a coincidence that now one fails

i think the exam boards may look at these school more favourbly and well for the kids that went there and didnt do well..."mark x" oh no he never studied here...its a cover up...all the failures are subject to hide out for the rest of there lives.

come and study my dergree if you think chemical engineering is easy i just had an exam full of calculus, integrating factors, partial differentiation, differntail equations and it wasnt easy peasy

[mjkukin2]

OH AND BY THE WAY TO YOUR LAST COMMENT SUPERTED

HOW THE HELL DOES MR BLAIR EXPECT 50% OF THE POPULATION TO GO TO UNI BY WHATEVER YEAR


MR BLAIR IF YOUR OUT THERE FACE REALITY YOU HAVE PUT THIS COUNTRY INTO ONE STEEP DOWNFALL ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION.

IF YOU WANT US BACK ABOLISH UNI FEES AND BRING BACK THR GRANT OR YOU PUT UP WITH NOT BEING ABLE TOO WASH YOUR SOCKS FOR A WEEK COS YOU CANT AFFORD WASHING POWDER...THATS HOW IT IS FOR SOME OUT THERE...NOT ME JUST A PHRASE

[Captain Chaos 747]

Pie are you from the UK because you seem to see things the complete opposite to what everyone sees, pull your head from your backside and acccept the truth.

That is the problem you don't want to accept the truth, the education department don't give a toss about you or the quality of the course they provide you all they are intrested in is how to make their wallets bigger but please understand i'm not trying to put you down what you are doing all i'm telling you is the truth about the way I see it and most other people see but most of all the way the employer sees it and that is that the standard of education today is crap kids are thicker or drugged up or got kids by the age of 15 if we did not let these people get into further education then colledges or universities would go bust and from your replies you seem a little bit unsecure and are doubting your abilities.

The only way you can get jobs these days is to prove that you are the right person for the job not by that piece of paper which in all honesty is worth naff all to the employer.

[Captain Chaos 747]

Finally pie you have come round and admitted education is crap and as I said it's about how much money they can make that is why they will not return with giving out grants because if they did they would not be making money and is the whole reason they scrapped grants it's to get you people to pay up and fill their pockets hence don't really need A levels to go to uni, just tell them you got a few thousand pounds to spend they will make sure they can fit you in on the course you wish to study.

THEY DON'T CARE IF YOU STRUGGLE FINANCIALLY THEY WANT YOUR MONEY, THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU

[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Captain Chaos 747 ]</p>

[mjkukin2]

captain chaos like i say if you aint been there you cant make a valid comment...yeah i know the government are screwing us but my head aint in my arse. if you had kids you would understand as you would be in the position of supporting them..unless your head is permantley up your arse and you are to obsessed in achieving your career goals

i am making use of whatever is left of the education system as one should....

and also its from one of the most highly regarded and reputable institutions in the world.in 5 years time i think i have the maturity, confidence and knowledge to do anything.

[mjkukin2]

"747" YOUR ORIGINAL REPLY ....If you are going for sponsorship get a degree it will show them you can study, but in all honesty all it is is a piece of paper

WHY???

you say get the degree but in all honesty it seems like oyu are saying dont get it's a waste of time. at the end of the day whats any qualification..."its a piece of paper saying your are a compatent individual who has the necessary knowledge and understandng to carry out a service" isnt it???

[Captain Chaos 747]

pie who says I have no kids and I have achived my goals by working my guts out do you know why I made it a priority? SO I CAN GIVE MY KIDS AND FAMILY A SECURE FUTURE.

I don't need to attend uni to have a point of view, a few of my friends have been, and if you could put your 2 I.Q. points togehter I said in my first reply if you want the airlines to pay the 50k on your training you will have a better chance than somebody with just A-levels so do the degree all it means to employers is you can turn to a page in a book and copy a paragraph out like the teacher tells you.

From your replies just confirms it for me is that you are very insecure and can't handle the truth

[mjkukin2]

sadly mr chaos 2 iq points dont get you anywhere in life especially not on to chemical engineering...i suspect that in your old age you feel slightly insecure that younger more talented idviduals are rising through the ranks with a greater wealth of understanding in many fields.

i pity you that you feel this way and that you think i am insecure, but from what i sense you should understand that its the brighteset individuals they want...times are changing and without an eduaction you aint goin no wherere or have nothing to fall back on

i do respect your comments and do wish you luck in a career in flying.

[Captain Chaos 747]

Once again pie you worry me, you seem to think i'm old, but if you could read you would have seen in one of my previous posts I got my airline job just after september the 11th and why would I feel insecure I am in my late twenties and is sitting up front of my nice cosy aircraft flying the punters to their holiday destinations. but you are right on one point they do take the brightest individuals thats why they must have picked me from having to done it the hardest way and lived in the real world.

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Captain Chaos 747 ]</p>

[mjkukin2]

yeah thats good 747 i mean if no one gets sponsorship then everyone has to the hard slog of raising finances and going at it modular or integrated but its worth it....i accept your point of view mines the opposite in a sense but i am glad for any wannabe who has made it yes even you.....747

Maybe you would like to give me a jump seat somtime........if you dont hate me too much...joke

[Captain Chaos 747]

I don't hate you pie but in all honesty you are not in the aviation industry yet, and yes when the rules of jump seat rides are relaxed I will offer you a trip.

You will then see why it's worth the struggle :)

[mjkukin2]

now our rather long debate has finnished on education how the hell did you land a job after sept 11 and who with ......you are piloting a 757...right??

[Captain Chaos 747]

Belive it or not pie airlines are recruiting pilots granted they are type rated and experianced and not low houred pilots. I did not have a type rating but did have 2000 hours from instructing. Did basically a lot of talking of why it would be a good idea to take me on basically and a lot of luck but by the end of the interview we were talking as if we had been buddies for years, it was a case of being at the right place at the right time and I'm now on the 757 with the largest holiday charter airline.

[scroggs]

My, this thread has strayed somewhat, hasn't it? The shortcomings of the UK education system are very interesting, and well worth a discussion, but not here, chaps, so button it!
As for the original question, this is very relevant for many wannabes, so I'll try to give a succinct answer before this thread goes terminally off-topic.
A degree is not necessary to become a pilot. A degree is not even necessary to gain sponsorship, if and when that avenue returns. However, you are, or will be, in competition with others to get your dream job, and any advantage you can get over the next guy is worthwhile, so get a degree.
Which degree? I have lost count of the number of acquaintances I have who did aviation-related engineering degrees at university because that's what they thought was needed to get a job. The vast majority hated the subject, had to work so hard they didn't enjoy university, and subsequently discovered that they'd achieved no advantage whatsoever over the underwater-basket-weaving graduate who'd had a great time through uni. Unless you want to be a military or industry test pilot, do whichever degree suits your interests. You will get a better result, and you will enjoy it. Both of which points will score heavily at interview. Blind persistence after a bad choice may not.... Just don't try to pretend that your geography degree gives you 'more to offer in terms of being able to cope with pressure, deadlines, tasks compared to someone who has worked for the last couple of years'. It ain't true.
Now, the overwhelming reason for getting a degree? Because you stand a very good chance of not getting into aviation - at least in the timescale you'd like. You will have to feed yourself and, possibly, your family somehow. In the general jobs market, a degree is very valuable.
Can I make it any clearer?

PS. Virgin don't give a damn whether you have a degree or not because, by the time you would be considered, you would have something much more valuable: experience.

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Scroggs ]</p>

[bow5]

CaptainChaos747,

Sorry mate but the ignorance you have shown on this thread is quite astounding.

You have 6 GCSE's. There are 10 year olds out there with 6 GCSE's. You have not studied or passed A-Level's or got anywhere near a proper university (not one of these ex-poly's who claim they are a University). You seem to be strangely proud of this fact.

How can you have the cheek to sit there are come out with statements like 'education is crap' when you have never experienced it? By not going to University and studying for a proper degree you have missed out. I can't be bothered going into why because like I said, if you've never been there then it's pointless.

I'm going to quote one of your own paragraphs back to you. Re-read it because it appears to me to be written by some who is very bitter about the fact that they do not have a proper education. You can criticise education all you want but the fact is that IT IS important, IT IS a sound basis for progression in life and you will learn a great deal more going to University and using the system to it's full potential than what the alternative offers.

[quote]I don't need to attend uni to have a point of view, a few of my friends have been, and if you could put your 2 I.Q. points togehter I said in my first reply if you want the airlines to pay the 50k on your training you will have a better chance than somebody with just A-levels so do the degree all it means to employers is you can turn to a page in a book and copy a paragraph out like the teacher tells you.

From your replies just confirms it for me is that you are very insecure and can't handle the truth
<hr></blockquote>


Quite frankly, that is pathetic. If you really believe that then I pity you.

[mjkukin2]

BOW5
thanks for that all along i have been trying to tell that to 747 that if you havent been in eduaction you wont know whats it like and i did try to put this across but he seems not too understand the students perspective

[Lucifer]

Whether or not the 'screening hypothesis' of education is right or not, I fully believe that in the context of this forum, it is more advisable than not for a wannabe pilot whether in the military of the civilian world to obtain a degree.

This does not hold as true for the non-sponsorship would of going via instructing to demonstrate ability and gain experience, but quite simply for a sponsorship, competitors come from universities. Forget the talk of David Beckham degrees and the such as it is irrelevant: they simply won't be hired as they should not be at university in the first place. The simple fact is that without any other way to gauge abilities the person without a degree has an inherent disadvantage when much greater numbers hold degrees now than before.

Two deviations (sorry scroggs!)
1) Know somebody who retook maths A-Level such that he could go to university again, 30 years after completing his first degree - in his opinion it was just as hard for him to get an 'A' the second time.
2) There are increased numbers of city, management and technical jobs requiring a degree, who recruit from the top unis whose standards have not fallen at all. Ex-polys are (mostly) another story, and failing to get a job after graduation is not surprising considering how poorly some are run. Top uni graduates will not end up in this situation.


Who would want to work in Burger King if they lost their medical?

[captainbirdseye]

Dont know if this point has already been given (cannot be arsed to wade through above slagging match) but here goes:

Scroggs alluded to the fact that an engineering degree would be of no particular advantage. I cannot say I agree whole heartedly as I would certainly advise a numerate degree if you are considering being a pilot. This is because having attended numerous (and been successful at some) sponsorship selection days I found the maths side of the selection easy as it was drilled into me for three years at uni. However friends who studied arts degrees tended to have problems with the maths as it was 3 maybe 5 years since they did any maths and found it very hard to get back into.

A word of advice though any engineering course at a decent ( top ten) uni in the uk is ROCK hard make no mistake. Hence the strict entry criteria, the maths will be way above and beyond anything you will get into in your ATPLS. I have known guys with four A's at A level come out with thirds in engineering and that would not look that great on your CV.


CBE

[scroggs]

Capt. Birdseye,
to cite the presence of maths tests at selection as justification for doing a numerate degree is stretching credulity just a little too far! The maths tests at BA and others require less than GCSE maths; you will have used a higher level in your ATPL studies, and any sponsorship candidate should brush up on the maths required before attending selection.
No airline or military employer that I know (and I do know quite a few - from rather more than having experienced an interview) will give two figs about exactly what your degree is, unless you are applying for a post that specifies certain relevant educational requirements, hence my allusion to test pilots in an earlier post.
At the moment, there are no general aircrew posts that specify any degree qualification. Therefore, your degree course is entirely your choice. Do not be tempted to do an engineering, science, or mathmatical degree unless you enjoy those subjects and would wish to do them anyway.

[Captain Chaos 747]

I will say it again i'm not putting you down I said on my first reply if you are going to aim for sponsorship a degree is the best way to go and you do have to work for it.

I am not bitter of not having a 'proprer education' as it was put because I had started a business and finance course but quit half way through it because I did not want to waste 3 years doing the course and still more than likely end up paying for the training myself, that is what most people end up doing anyway if they have a degree or not.

One more thing if my education was so poor how come I passed all my ATPL's first time and I have a job sitting in the pointy end when some people who have a degree have failed, their was one person on my course who failed I have known a few others who have failed and if i'm not mistaken their is a element of maths and science involved in the ATPL's.

But hey what do I know, I only achived it all and enjoy who I fly for.

[Springo]

Whew, this thread has gone off topic to some degree (pun intended).

It would appear from what everyone is saying that I will have no problem in getting a job flying. I have a Maths degree and I'm going to be going modular for the ATPL. From looking at the posts it would appear I have the best of both worlds <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Do you think interviewers would also take pity on me if I told them I was brought up in a council house and am now earning more than any memeber of my family has ever earned. Then it would really hit home to them how hard it was for me to get into the airline industry.

*All above said in jest to calm you folks down*

As for the question is a degree worth it. I am very proud of mine but i don't ram it down people's throats - my degree is only a small part of who I am.

[scroggs]

Pie and Chaos,
conduct your argument privately by e-mail. We don't need it here, children.