Cathays 49ers

[t3953]

Does anyone have the latest on the famous CX 49ers???
Seems this subject has been very quiet over the last few months but I briefly read somewhere in a press release regarding CX's new A340-600 that the pilots have had their US law suit thrown out the door by the courts.
Anyone have some more concrete info on this one???
Cheers! :D

[BlueEagle]

t3953 - This is a very sensitive subject in Hong Kong and amongst Cathay Pacific employees in particular, it concerns 49 pilots who lost their job. Not something to be taken lightly.

As far as I am aware some of the pilots are still in Hong Kong, some have left and found other employment, some have left and are still unemployed.

The pilot's court case in the USA was reported here on PPRuNe to have been thrown out at the first level, I'm not certain how many levels of appeal are now available and remain to be explored.

For more background information and a better idea altogether of what this subject is all about I suggest you thoroughly search this forum. Thanks.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[Airbubba]

Yep, as I reported here a year or so ago, the union [sic] at Cathay has been broken, it's all over but the shouting...

[BusyB]

Airbubba, That's really jolly honest of you to admit publicly that you were wrong!

[Wanula Dreaming]

Looks like the hiring ban has not been working very well. I read the following on the Cathay Pacific website : Due to the enormous response to the advertisement on our website, we are not accepting any further applications at this time.

and,

Join the Team. Share the Dream. :confused:

[ironbutt57]

Union is not busted...just ineffective, very much so..:cool: :p

[Wanula Dreaming]

Sorry, here is the link :

http://www.cathaypacific.com/intl/careers/paths/0,,86808,00.html

[FlexibleResponse]

Sorry, but here are some better ones:

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/default.htm

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/ban.htm

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Dispute/5000PM~1.PDF

[JohnnyJet]

The HKAOA "Support from Around the World" list is misleading. As a 16 YR ALPA member I don't remember my union asking my thoughts on the recruitment ban. My fellow ALPA pilots who are, or soon to be out of work, also had no say in this matter, yet they are represented as been in support of this ban. The list also includes APA (American Airlines) as one of their support allies. This is a group that has no problem stapling pilots (TWA) to the bottom of their seniority list then furloughs them. They would do the same to CX if they had the chance. Lift the ban, find better ways to get the 49ers back before you end up with more non union pilots on the property than union pilots.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Are we forgetting who the "villians" are here fellas? Remember, the DFO stated that the "49ers" were terminated (FIRED) for "NO PARTICULAR REASON"

All the AOA is/was trying to do (admittedly, rather ineffectively) is protect the 49.

So everyone seems to think that the IFALPA action was wrong. Well, put your (better) ideas here:

1.

And here

2.

And here...

3.

[BMM389EC]

Cpt. Underpants
I do'nt think anyone is disputing that what was done was wrong.
However what is also wrong is the ban. By your own admission the current action(if any) by the AOA is ineffective. Just because the AOA action is ineffective I do'nt think it is fair to use others careers and lives as part of their action when the AOA body cannot resolve the situation. I, and many others, think that the ban is wrong but it is not my responsiblity to come up other ideas. It's the AOA's.

[fliion]

Capt. underpants:

1. let the AOA initiate a strike to support their fellow workers i.e. put up or shut up.

2. stop taking upgrades

3. don't ask new hires to effectively go on strike (forfeit a shot at a career for a major) if the pilot group is not willing to do it thamselves.

This debate is ridiculous, as an ALPA member in the U.S., myself and anyone I have spoken to about the IFALPA ban laugh at the arrogance of the HKAOA in asking people who don't even have a job to fight their fight. As to ALPA's support of the ban, none of us were ever polled for our opinion but I can tell you the AOA garners no respect and much contempt from good standing members of the union for their lack of a backbone.

This is my first post but I felt compelled to write it as I see various references to ALPA's support of the AOA. Don't bet on it we have little tolerance over here for those who don't understand the definition of 'union': "A number of persons or states joined or associated together for common purpose"

[JohnnyJet]

" Villans" - We all agree on that one. "Pilot in Command" = ?????????

[Cpt. Underpants]

fliion

I did say BETTER ideas.

1. The majority of AOA members haven't the balls. The suggestion of a strike was D.O.A.

2. 4% (our contribution to support the 49) of (an AOA Member's) Captain salary is better than 4% of (an AOA Member's) F/O salary. Don't be absurd.

3. What if they gave a war and no-one came?

NEXT?

[ironbutt57]

The ban is ineffective the AoA are very effective.....at convincing the rest of the aviation world that the AoA members who vehemently support this ban are a bunch of misguided hypocrites...

[shortly]

1. Stop all industrial action.
2. Change the Committee of the AOA.
3. Admit all the new joiners into the AOA.

At least that would have allowed progress to be made some time ago. Unfortunately(for the AOA) the company seems to be playing with bigger and harder balls. The loss of the court case in Cal, and the almost scathing summarisation by the judge does not leave much hope for higher appeal there. The other overseas 'cases' are (I believe) labour tribunal hearings and so slap on the wrist stuff in all honesty. The court case in HKG is asking the company to leave a better rostering system and return to the even worse one we had before - just petty spin doctor crap, and given HKG's labour record there is no reason to think the AOA will win that one either. Thirteenth month, profit share - yup the AOA will win a lot more friends by screwing with the company now. CX is by no means an ideal place to work but you have to admit it beats the crap out of the majority of the remainder.

[gissmonkey]

Do you really think the new joiners would want to join the AOA?

[HUSTLER]

SHORTLY,

Be honest,

The HK court case ( in essence )is to prevent our COS from being changed at the companies will


HUSTLER

[fire wall]

Captain Underpants, I owe you an apology. Prior to reading your last post I thought you were just another unprincipled pilot who thought only of his own lot in life. Now I realise I was too quick to judge and it has now all become clear to me.......AOA members are accepting upgrades in the selfless pursuit of providing a greater salary sacrifice (4%) for their collegues. How could I have been so stupid.

And you wonder why the AOA is held in comtempt.

[Wizofoz]

All the AOA is/was trying to do (admittedly, rather ineffectively) is protect the 49.

Capt U, a policy that doesn't work is worse than no policy at all. A policy that is actually counter productive (by dilluting the AOA membership base with a now very large group of pilots who will not be eligable for membership.) is even worse.

If there is nothing to be done for the 49ers it is tragic but unavoidable. The current position is that the AOA will not do ENOUGH to help them, but will pursue something that WON'T help them in some sort of concious salving, blame shifting exersize.

Creating more victims is in nobodys best interest.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Shortly

Bending over for the bat from CX Management will just mean more of the same. There SHOULD be a fight, not acquiescence.

Cathay has demonstrated over and over again that it is unwilling to waiver from its declared aim of destruction and total annihilation of organised labour in it's workforce.

Your 1, 2 and 3 are the mill owners' answers to his prayers.

For those who don't understand, please don't ask me to explain. This is not a history lesson, just (I think) a civilized discussion amongst peers.

Oh yes, WIZ , 54 (so far) is not "a very large group".

F/W, just how do you equate giving 4% (it was 5% until a few months months back) of my monthly salary for more than a year to unfairly terminated colleagues unprincipled I think you couldn't be more wrong.

[VR-HFX]

Capt Y

'Your 1, 2 and 3 are the mill owners' answers to his prayers.'

I am afraid the millowners' prayers have already been answered by the AOA.

May I respectfully suggest that Shortly is on the money, assuming of course that the AOA really does want to get a seat back at the table.

Life is full of self-fulfilling prophecies but none is more cogent than the AOA stated position that CX management wants all unions off the block.

Ask yourself what incentive management now has to change that perception so skilfully created by the AOA itself.

Realistically the time to save some of the 49'ers has now sadly passed and we remain painted into the corner....waiting...and waiting.

I'm afraid the 5% to 4% doesn't cut it. But nothing is more cruel than the false hopes for those who's lives are still in limbo.

[raitfaiter]

I understand that the CX DFO is about to retire in ignominy soon, to live in Scotland and and NZ.;)

[Plastique]

Yawn.

Wake me up when this buII**** is over.

As for the 49ers, quit wasting your lives on a hiding to nowhere.
Get real.
Move on.
Read your contracts, CX or any company in HK can send you home for good without reason provided they pay your 3 months notice as stipulated in your conditions of employment.
This is one of the occupational hazards which comes with the elevated terms and conditions.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Wizofoz]

Captain Grungies (Sorry, Aussie expression!)

If 54 is not a large group, then I guess Cathay only sacked a small group.

You are right, action against the company should be taken. So why are you supporting action which has no affect on the company, and only harms other pilots?

I've been quiet about this for a while because I got a lot of "You don't see the big picture, the plan is in motion "(You still around frank G?).

That was six months ago.

Does ANYONE want to claim the ban has achieved ANYTHING?

[Cpt. Underpants]

What has the ban achieved?

1. It has kept some very good blokes from joining, and...
2. Some real "don't give a crap for anyone else" types have got in.
3. It has divided the AOA.
4. It has given the company a lot of headaches.
5. It has given the AOA a lot of headaches.
6. It has overloaded this BBS.
7. It has really p*ssed of old Ironbutt57.
8. Given a lot of blokes a lot to talk about in bars...

PS I wash em regular like...

[shortly]

Capt Underpants. You are so very wrong in your summation of the situation. The re-election of the same leadership by the AOA caused no discomfort to the management of CX whatsoever, quite the contrary. They saw that as a sign of weakness, not strength, from the AOA. They knew that there was no new person about to hit them with valid reasons for negotiation. The re-election of the lunatic brigade sealed the fate of the 49ers. Their only hope now is for a bit of compensation, which will be given voluntarily by the company not under the duress of court action. At least that is my opinion. Your original 1,2 and 3 are actually the tri-partite strategy of the ineffectual AOA management. My God man what have the dithering blockheads achieved in ten + years of union activity against the company? How many company offers have been taken up? The art of negotiation seems lost on the AOA. Take whatever they offer which is better than what you had and then re-negotiate later. Remember the reams of data provided by the AOA in support of why they refused offers? Most of it (of course) coming from the USA - United was well represented then. Bet the AOA are not quoting them now. Anyway I would imagine this whole sorry episode is slowly dragging its way to a solution which will only weaken the AOA still further. My sympathy remains with the martyrs of union ineptitude - the 49ers. I hope the AOA doesn't screw up their compensation which is coming - or so the dogs are barking. But I bet they do.

[ironbutt57]

Shortly...your post is exactly correct...they need to re-hash the union, and allow the new joiners to join the union...strength is in numbers...and more is better..as it stands now..new joiners are only undermining any attempts by the unoin to effect change...why not have the newbies on your side...if the AoA cannot see this, then they are doomed for sure...they have really lost the plot

[fliion]

Capt. U

You are correct, zero balls and thats the bottom line.

As to not taking upgrades being absurd. well what do you think would most adversely affect CX: (a) not having pilots filling captain slots, or (b) you guys helping out the 49ers financially.?

Incidentally, working off your logic surely it would be better to welcome more pilots on to the property so that you could also tap the new hires for contributions to the 49ers. I am sure they would be delighted to contribute the same percentage as the rest of the pilot group. This would mean that they are taking the exact same 'industrial action' as everybody else would it not?

Nobody is saying what happened was fair or pretty. however it is widely acknowledged that the pilot group's reaction in defense of the 49ers was pitiful. strike one for the AOA. Then without taking any action they go to the marketplace and ask others to sacrifice their careers so their individual situation can improve.

its like rugby, men. when your is son growing up and learning to play make sure you teach him to tell the other boys to make the tackle so you can get the ball

sickening

[Cpt. Underpants]

fliion

I am a member of the AOA.

I didn't say I agree with everything they do. But, that's a democracy...heard of it?

[Wizofoz]

Democracy:-

n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
A political or social unit that has such a government.
The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.



As AOA policies are to deny a group of people the right to a membership, and therefore a vote, and to encourage dis-respect for those people, it is by definition un-democratic.

[shortly]

Hustler, in many societies the Courts are an arm of Government almost autonomous in their deliberations. That is if you don't believe that High and Supreme Court Judge appointments are politically motivated ha ha. In Hong Kong the system is supposedly similar, still being based on the British system. So of course you can have great confidence in the Court to honestly and openly rule on that sooo important decision on the rostering aspects of one's contract. I have said before and been villified by the pit bulls that one should only plan fights when all the advantages are yours, note I said plan ok. Picking the time, place and conditions for a battle, aiming for success and not the status quo, isn't that what a good leader should be doing? Further, violence is the last resort of a stupid man. Industrial action is industrial violence. We should never ever have been in this fight at all, the AOA have tossed all our balls in the air and they haven't caught many on the way down. In fact I think they've probably dropped the lot.

[BusyB]

Wizofoz, Thanks for the definition. However, your interpretation of it means that there isn't a democratic country in the world as we can't vote in all of them.:rolleyes:

[raitfaiter]

Shortly, once again your shorts are showing....isn't it Swine policy for their junior stooges to read Sun Tzu? Shame on you for being sooooo transparent.:p

[mandrake]

:rolleyes: ;) :) mandrake

After reading all the discussions re the sacking of the 49'for the last 12 month no solutions has appeared to solve the stalemate between the management & the A.O.A.
If the A.O.A. had talks with Cathay after the 9-11 tragedy & told them that the pilots were willing to take a 15%pay cut to help the company out during the downturn in the airline industry simular to the staff at Singapore Airline , the chances of the 49's of being re-employed would have improved.
In any dispute there are no winners only losers.All it needs is new negotiators to approach the company & tell them the pilots are willing to help the company to become bigger better & more profitable by taking less sickies & takiing the right amout of fuel on all flights ,leaving on time.& getting shares in the company instead of bonuses.;)

[gissmonkey]

Hey mandrake,

why the hell should they take a pay cut when the company is set to post one of it's biggest ever profits, load factors in CX are running at 90%, cargo is ballistic and they've had to revise the buget twice and it's is still running about 8-9% above this!:eek:

[FlexibleResponse]

Let's think this one all the way through:

1. The management sacks 49 Pilots.
2. The AOA begs the management to reinstate the sacked pilots in return for a 15% pay cut.

Six months later:

1. The management sacks 49 Pilots.
2. The AOA begs the management to reinstate the sacked pilots in return for a 15% pay cut.

Six months later:

1. The management sacks 49 Pilots.
2. The AOA begs the management to reinstate the sacked pilots in return for a 15% pay cut.

Mmm...

[gissmonkey]

Mmmmmmm...........

Maybe one should now the facts before posting?????????

[mandrake]

Hello Gissmonkey & Flexible R.
It seems to me that you do not trust CX to do the right thing,& that you are both unhappy about with the working conditions.What do you think about CX resume paying the one month bonus?Did the A.O.A. put pressure on the company to pay up? Or did CX do it to show that it will reward the employees if they do their job efficiently.
If you both dislike working at CX there 3 choices,
1. Leave CX & find another airline,but bear in mind that the grass is not always greener over the hill.
2. Start your own business.Being your own boss is not as easy as you think.Please remember that you have to employ staff & they might not be happy with the way you run your business.
3. Sit back & enjoy things as they are just like shortly,no company is 100% perfect.

Mandrake.
:cool:

[FlexibleResponse]

...do not trust CX to do the right thing...?

Again for the second Christmas our thoughts are with the Cathay 49ers, their partners and especially their children. Merry Christmas to all, and we hope and look forward to a happy and peaceful resolution in the New Year.

[gissmonkey]

mandrake,

If the A.O.A. had talks with Cathay after the 9-11 tragedy & told them that the pilots were willing to take a 15%pay cut to help the company out during the downturn in the airline industry simular to the staff at Singapore Airline , the chances of the 49's of being re-employed would have improved.

CX did not have a downturn, they had a very BIG upturn, so I say again, why the hell should emploees take a pay cut??

As for the bonus, its in the contract, nuff said.

Oh, and I don't work for em.:D

[MaxThrust]

To answer the question that was asked, you need
to hear from a 49er and that's me.
We 49ers are cohesive group, we have looked for
work so our members can gain some relief from the
subs they are paying to keep us fed and housed
etc. We are waiting for our court cases to come
up an be heard. That will happen in the next 3 months
with most of the actions starting in January.
The USA case will be taken further to the supreme
court.

When the settlement comes the Replacement Workers, (RWs), issue will be
resolved as follows. All RWs will have their
advancement frozen for the same length of time
that the 49ers where unemployed. During this time
cx will undoubtedly recruit and then once
this period is up the RWs will be allowed to
advance on the seniority list. The RWs will not
be allowed to profit from there actions.

MaxThrust - I see this is your first post, please abide by the rules of the BB. Your own association uses the term Replacement Workers for anyone who takes up employment with CX after the ban came into force. Replacement Workers is the term to be used on this forum please. Thank you.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[ironbutt57]

Look here boys and girls, at the end of the day, right or wrong..blah..blah..blah..this could be me or you, at the mere drop of the hat, the whim of some manager having a bad day...welcome to aviation..the fact of the matter is, the AoA is a toothless tiger. It is Christmas, and our colleagues deserve, and have earned our respect, and best wishes during the present holidays, and our support in the new year to come...there but for the grace of God go all of us....we're only as good as our last paycheck...."semper fi" 49'ers don't look back...:) :) :)

[Wizofoz]

Max Thrust,

How will those who turned down employment in support of the ban be repaid?

Will you undertake not to accept re-employment unless anyone who declined Cathay employment to help you is also guarenteed a job?

If you don't, it will mean the "Replacement Workers" indeed made the right decision by securing themselves a job.

[Plastique]

Hey MaxThrust
Why don't you guys just get off your backsides and get a real job instead of sponging off your former colleagues?

I for one am happy not to be an AOA member...

[jtr]

A little maturity please

[fliion]

Max T.

I was wondering how will the pilots who accepted upgrades be penalized?

[pilotabroad]

MaxThrust

Stop dreaming. You are finished at CX...by your own hand and that of the AOA leadership.

Time to grow up and take a long hard look at yourself...your actions got your name on the 49er list. You were not chosen at random. The longer you stay around the weaker the AOA gets. Last count had membership at 56% of CX pilots. What is it now? When it drops below 50% and the company makes offers through our mailboxes (they have always said that they would deal with a union only if it reps > 50% of pilots, not less) who will be to blame? You and Nigel and friends.

You played the game and lost. Move on.

[FlexibleResponse]

(they have always said that they would deal with a union only if it reps > 50% of pilots, not less)
But they haven't dealt with the AOA which represents about 70% of the pilots for 18 months now, have they?

One might observe that some are getting entangled in the web of their own deceit.

[Cpt. Underpants]

FLIION

The penalty for taking an upgrade will be to answer already-asked, inane questions on PPrune about recruitment issues and the ban till hell freezes over.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[BlueEagle]

FLEXIBLERESPONSE:

Sorry to make this public but you have elected not to receive Private Messages and the Email address you have given claims not to know you! "This account has been disabled or discontinued" they said.

Please provide an active Email address to [email protected]

It is a condition of your ability to post on PPRuNe that you have an active email address that PPRuNe Admin and Moderators can contact you on. This address does not have to show in your profile.

If it is your ISP that has responded in error please contact them and clarify that the address you have already given is current and reactivated. Thank you.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[FlexibleResponse]

Dear BlueEagle,
Sorry for the loss of contact. Please check your email at admin1.
FlexibleResponse

[Thanks FR, your message will have gone direct to PPRuNe HQ, not to me. If you can still do it, a copy via PM or email to me would be appreciated.]

BlueEagle,
Email to you as requested.
FlexibleResponse

[fliion]

Capt U

Once again when confronted by the real issues you sidetrack.

The reason this question keeps on getting asked is because there is has been no easy answer. I can tell by your posts that your feelings have been bruised from earlier replies. However I have and will continue to stick to the issues.

My question is for a 49er. How can you not criticise pilots who take upgrades yet lambast new hires for getting their foot in the door? In fact if you get your way the hew hires will be penalised as a post mentioned earlier, however they will retain their employment which completely endorses their decision to join.

To the guys who held off on applying (and the chance of a job in this market) in support of a pilot group who does nothing but take upgrades and promotions (on the basis of more money for the 49ers out of the bigger paycheck sub I presume) you will be rewarded by knowing that the guys who did join will in fact keep their jobs and continue a career at CX.

And why is that? Because all the boorish rhetoric of the 49ers and their supporters about how the replacement workers will get their just rewards, how they will never work anywhere else in the world because of the 'S' word have held such little respect and meaning in the broad aviation community that finally a 49er has come on this board and admitted that in the end they (the 49ers) will agree to work alongside the joiners as long as they are made to suffer a little.

Remember guys, they don't want anyone to join this airline yet they themselves are willing to return and work with the people they have been excoriating all these months. Surely as such principled professionals they would not agree to work with the RW's or in fact ever return to a company that treated them so badly (not to mention taking a seat beside a veteran who took zero industrial action to support him)! Wrong, they jusy want a job flying.

If I was a 49er my issue would not be with the people who joined it would be with the leople who stayed.

[raitfaiter]

pilotabroad.... once again the drip, drip,drip of disinformation! CX management is quoted in many signed and notarised documents,including those lodged with the labor relations board, that it accepts that the HKAOA is the sole negotiating representative of pilots employed by CX, this stretches back to Mike Hardy, let alone the present lot.
Even John Findlay should be able to find these docs, even though he often seems to be unable to find his ass with both hands. Any attempt to 'deregister' the union from its sole negotiating position would surely lead to yet more litigation.....haven't you guys had enough?:confused:

[1013]

As a retiree after some 28 years with CX I can say I am disgusted by the company's behaviour in the sacking of those 49 individuals.

By the same token having flown with a handful of them (and knowing a dozen more of them) I can say in all honesty that I am not surprised some were sacked judging by their previous attitude and behaviour on occasion.
At the same time I know of a few guys there that did their jobs well and although one was rehired a few good men are still out of work (and worse still - Limbo).

Some very valid points have been made by both sides but let's face some facts:

The management must be seen to save face as their credibility will be severly undermined if they back down.
Dont even expect a backdown now after so long.

Secondly the recruitment ban has not seemed to work very effectively and as one soul mentioned very accurately, all it serves to do is to keep good people out and allow those who dont give a damn in.

Thirdly as mentioned,CX dont need a reason to terminate a contract as long as they fork out the 3 months termination pay then their legal (not moral) obligations are satisfied.

Fourthly I met a few F/O's recently that have had enough of paying the 4% but have stated its not worth withdrawing their HKAOA membership because of all the grief they'll receive from other members.
Sounds like the prospect of bullying may be alive just as it was in certain trade unions in Oz.

Pretty damned sad and as plastique mentioned its just served to divide the CX crew and HKAOA members.

The management must read this site and laugh themselves stupid as their plan to divide has reigned supreme!
The fact that members are paying bills for those 49 must really make those same managers go to bed at night with a smile on their face as it serves as the perfect vehicle to p!ss people off - the hip pocket - and all members are affected no less!

Sad as it is just move on, get on with your lives and cut the losses as this is an unwinable crusade.

You may well criticise my posting and disagree but where do the HKAOA members honestly see this going and for how much longer will the members be willing to give 4% of their salaries????

Perhaps the association president or committee would like to comment?

Enough is enough and as this protracted affair draws on the AOA membership will go down with it and further destabilise the pilot base.

Who will back down first?
Well it aint going to be the company - thats a certainty!

[VR-HFX]

1013

I can't see how anyone will send a scud up your tailpipe for what was a pretty succinct summary.

As someone who saw most of the 70's and the 80's and then put some back on the table in the 90's you would appreciate that the best days are long gone. Indeed with some of the super payouts over HKD30m in the mid 90's one has to wonder what kind of fairy tale we were all living.

After all the gravy and tolerance of earlier times, the behaviour of the company in 2001 was a stark and fearful contrast indeed.

My take, however, is less Machiavellian than many, and that would therefore put me at loggerheads with a substantial body of folk who have joined in the 90's.

I believe that the whole mess was created by our fellow pilots in management and the subsequent inflexibility of the AOA.

As the airline continued to grow at an amazing bat, senior management could no longer take on the pastoral issues the way they used to until well into the 90's. They retreated to the big picture strategy and the numbers. Into that vacuum appeared an AOA beefing itself up with professional and traditional western-type union ' expertise'.

The implementation was largely delegated to our fearless leaders in flight ops. IMHO this group has generally been a strange blend of missionary and ambitious zealot. The methodology for 2001 was hatched in the prefects' room not the board room.

Once the dice were rolled, the boardroom had to back them. Indeed their spine was stiffened when the AOA publicly declared the management unfit to run the company. Sir Adrian took personal umbrage and the window for compromise closed so tight that not even a church mouse could squeeze through.

Once all the wheels came off, the trust and tolerance, so long a feature of the company, simply evaporated. The AOA painted itself into a corner from which it cannot escape in its current form. Management on the other hand has the horsepower to ride it out, albeit at a cost.

All this has been hashed over before but I agree with you that too much time has now passed to see the 49'er issue resolved in any way that will bring satisfaction to any of the parties.

The 'ban' has served only to weaken the AOA. The longer this drags on the more permanent will be the damage to the AOA and the working environment for all.

For those with only a few years to grin and bear it, it is just plain sad. For those with another 20 years of the same to look forward to, it is a tragedy.

Happy New Year....did you send the Aya Toller a Xmas card???

[raitfaiter]

I always thought Blue Eagle was The Ayatollah in disguise...........:D :p :D

[fire wall]

HFX, succinct and historically accurate.
Unfortunately the GC of the AOA are self motivated and look to the juvenile delinqeints who post on CPrune for approval of their mandate. This will not end before they are outed. Perhaps they could reflect on the measures dished out on 3 new recruits in L.Q. Fong a few nights ago......such people hide behind memberships like such because they are too weak to be seen in the open with their convictions for all to see. Pathetic is the only word that is printable on this forum.

[BMM389EC]

What happened in L Q Fong?

[1013]

VR-HFX - a very accurate,down to earth and succint posting.

No - I cant take credit for the ayatollah or George Bush/Sadam Xmas cards.

Happy New Year to you and your families.

1013

[SOLO]

The ban is international. Whether you you break it is your business. Your life. Let’s drop the rhetoric. If you are an ALPA member, then you support the ban. If not, you should probably give up that expensive membership. Last time I checked, IF the ALPA representatives that YOU elected voted to support the ban, then you did too. It is that elected representative thing...

It does not matter what kind of words you use. The ban is there.

Did I miss something?



CODE OF ETHICS
------------------------------------------------------------------------

An Air Line Pilot will keep uppermost in his mind that the safety, comfort, and well-being of the passengers who entrust their lives to him are his first and greatest responsibility.

* He will never permit external pressures or personal desires to influence his judgment, nor will he knowingly do anything that could jeopardize flight safety.
* He will remember that an act of omission can be as hazardous as a deliberate act of commission, and he will not neglect any detail that contributes to the safety of his flight, or perform any operation in a negligent or careless manner.
* Consistent with flight safety, he will at all times operate his aircraft in a manner that will contribute to the comfort, peace of mind, and well-being of his passengers, instilling in them trust in him and the airline he represents.
* Once he has discharged his primary responsibility for the safety and comfort of his passengers, he will remember that they depend upon him to do all possible to deliver them to their destination at the scheduled time.
* If disaster should strike, he will take whatever action he deems necessary to protect the lives of his passengers and crew.

An Air Line Pilot will faithfully discharge the duty he owes the airline that employs him and whose salary makes possible his way of life.

* He will do all within his powers to operate his aircraft efficiently and on schedule in a manner that will not cause damage or unnecessary maintenance.
* He will respect the officers, directors, and supervisors of his airline, remembering that respect does not entail subservience.
* He will faithfully obey all lawful directives given by his supervisors, but will resist and, if necessary, refuse to obey any directives that, in his considered judgment, are not lawful or will adversely affect flight safety. He will remember that in the final analysis the responsibility for safe completion of the flight rests upon his shoulders.
* He will not knowingly falsify any log or record, nor will he condone such action by other crew members.
* He will remember that a full month’s salary demands a full and fair month’s work. On his days off, he will not engage in any occupation or activity that will diminish his efficiency or bring discredit to his profession.
* He will realize that he represents the airline to all who meet him and will at all times keep his personal appearance and conduct above reproach.
* He will give his airline, its officers, directors, and supervisors the full loyalty that is their due, and will refrain from speaking ill of them. If he feels it necessary to reveal and correct conditions that are not conducive to safe operations and harmonious relations, he will direct his criticism to the proper authorities within ALPA.
* He will hold his airline’s business secrets in confidence, and will take care that they are not improperly revealed.

An Air Line Pilot will accept the responsibilities as well as the rewards of command and will at all times so conduct himself both on duty and off as to instill and merit the confidence and respect of his crew, his fellow employees, and his associates within the profession.

* He will know and understand the duties of each member of his crew. If in command, he will be firm but fair, explicit yet tolerant of deviations that do not affect the safe and orderly completion of the flight. He will be efficient yet relaxed, so that the duties of the crew may be carried out in a harmonious manner.
* If in command, he will expect efficient performance of each crew member’s duties, yet he will overlook small discrepancies and refrain from unnecessary and destructive criticism, so that the crew member will retain his self-respect and cooperative attitude. A frank discussion of minor matters of technique and performance after the flight will create goodwill and a desire to be helpful, whereas sharp criticism and peremptory orders at the moment will result only in the breakdown of morale and an inefficient, halting performance of future duties.
* An Air Line Pilot will remember that his is a profession heavily dependent on training during regular operations and, if in command, will afford his flight crew members every reasonable opportunity, consistent with safety and efficiency, to learn and practice. He will endeavor to instill in his crew a sense of pride and responsibility. In making reports on the work and conduct of his crew members, he will avoid personal prejudices, make his reports factual and his criticisms constructive so that actions taken as a result of his reports will improve the knowledge and skill of his crew members, rather than bring discredit, endanger their livelihood, and threaten their standing in the profession.
* While in command, the Air Line Pilot will be mindful of the welfare of his crew. He will see to it that his crew are properly lodged and cared for, particularly during unusual operating conditions. When cancellations result in deadheading, he will ensure that proper arrangements are made for the transportation of his crew before he takes care of himself.

An Air Line Pilot will conduct his affairs with other members of the profession and with ALPA in such a manner as to bring credit to the profession and ALPA as well as to himself.

* He will not falsely or maliciously injure the professional reputation, prospects, or job security of another pilot, yet if he knows of professional incompetence or conduct detrimental to the profession or to ALPA, he will not shrink from revealing this to the proper authorities within ALPA, so that the weak member may be brought up to the standards demanded, or ALPA and the profession alike may be rid of one unworthy to share its rewards.
* He will conduct his affairs with ALPA and its members in accordance with the rules laid down in the Constitution and By-Laws of ALPA and with the policies and interpretations promulgated therefrom. Whenever possible, he will attend all meetings of ALPA open to him and will take an active part in its activities and in meetings of other groups calculated to improve air safety and the standing of the profession.
* An Air Line Pilot shall refrain from any action whereby, for his personal benefit or gain, he takes advantage of the confidence reposed in him by his fellow members. If he is called upon to represent ALPA in any dispute, he will do so to the best of his ability, fairly and fearlessly, relying on the influence and power of ALPA to protect him.
* He will regard himself as a debtor to his profession and ALPA, and will dedicate himself to their advancement. He will cooperate in the upholding of the profession by exchanging information and experience with his fellow pilots and by actively contributing to the work of professional groups and the technical press.

To an Air Line Pilot the honor of his profession is dear, and he will remember that his own character and conduct reflect honor or dishonor upon the profession.

* He will be a good citizen of his country, state, and community, taking an active part in their affairs, especially those dealing with the improvement of aviation facilities and the enhancement of air safety.
* He will conduct all his affairs in a manner that reflects credit on himself and his profession.
* He will remember that to his neighbors, friends, and acquaintances he represents both the profession and ALPA, and that his actions represent to them the conduct and character of all members of the profession and ALPA.
* He will realize that nothing more certainly fosters prejudices against and deprives the profession of its high public esteem and confidence than do breaches in the use of alcohol.
* He will not publish articles, give interviews, or permit his name to be used in any manner likely to bring discredit to another pilot, the airline industry,
the profession, or ALPA.
* He will continue to keep abreast of aviation developments so that his skill and judgment, which heavily depend on such knowledge, may be of the highest order.

Having Endeavored to his utmost to faithfully fulfill the obligations of the ALPA Code of Ethics and Canons for the Guidance of Air Line Pilots, a pilot may consider himself worthy to be called…an AIRLINE PILOT.

[From th ALPA website: http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=181]

[BlueEagle]

SOLO - Would you please either:

1. Confirm that the 'Code of Ethics' you have posted is your own work, or

2. Give the appropriate credit to your source by editing it in.

Sorry to be a pain but this has to be done in order to avoid copy-right issues that could turn into nasty law suites!
many thanks, (I do appreciate that the final paragraph indicates it has come from an ALPA source, so just quoting that document will do fine).

BlueEagle - Moderator

OK SOLO the deed is done, thanks jtr.

[Turbo Beaver]

Mr. Blue Eagle:

Whether this is from SOLO’s own writing or from ALPA’s Code of Ethics, it is one of the best posts that I have read on here in a long time. It is something that we should all take to heart.

Turbo Beaver

[jtr]

http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=181

from the ALPA site

[SOLO]

As they say on Patpong Road...

My bad.

[FaPoGai]

What a load of Cobblers!

[saudipc-9]

Having looked through ALPA's press release history for the past two years I cannot see anything in them that implies ALPA is supporting the AOA. The only thing they have done is tell the US Congress about the dispute where I am sure they were very worried about it as they have over 7000 pilots on furlough
I also cannot see in the code of ethics where it says
* If I am a weakdick I will encourage others to fight my battles for me.
* If they do not fight my battles for me, I will call them Scab's, Oh excuse me I mean Replacement Workers.
* While others fight my battles and I call others silly names , I will accept upgrades which will enhance my own career.
As FaPoGai says "Cobblers"

[SOLO]

...other than this letter...

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Support/092002%20%20USALPA.pdf

...oh and this one...

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Support/0711%20USALPA%20to%20Washington%20Post.pdf

...or this one...

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Support/Delta%20Support.pdf

...or maybe...

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Support/United%20Airline.pdf

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Support/0301%20Duane%20Worth.pdf

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Support/1004%20ALPA%20Letter.pdf

...and this article about CPA in the ALPA Airline Pilot...

http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=414

[BMM389EC]

Most of those letters must be covered in dust now they have been written so long ago.
As saudipc-9 said. Where are the ethics about using other people( many without jobs) to try and achieve when you are not prepared to do anything except take upgrades and look after yourself.
What a load of cobblers

[shortly]

The tragedy really is that there are many guys/gals involved with the AOA who have been so sidelined because they believed the Union rhetoric. So 89. Sad.

[BusyB]

And here was me thinking the entire workforce had been sidelined by the management. No meaningful talks with any group of workers, just take it or leave.....!!!!!

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

most unions that get emotionally sidetracked from the real issues in a dispute usually end up defunct. it is sad to think that the AOA will eventually have more pilots outside their union working for Cathay and will IFALPA really give a damn ?

[Dr._Strangelove]

I don't understand that the members of the AOA can look themselves in the mirror, when they say that they twill accept a promotion because it will generate more money for the 49'ers.:confused:

I think it's a good thought, but if I should believe that your intensions are heartfelt then I really think you should do it this way: Take your promtions, take your increase in salary according to seniority. Take your income for the month when the 49'ers left the company. Then give all the extra money to the 49'ers. In other words: Freeze your salary at the stage it was when they got sacked and give all the rest to the poor guys. That would make me believe in your intensions, for only by doing that would you support your former colleagues without getting any personal gain from it. If you did that I'm sure you would get a lot more support for your ban from the world outside of CX.

As so many people before me has said: Why should unemployed pilots support your ban, when you're gaining from it??? People don't want to fight your fight, if you don't fight along side with them.:*

I'm out of a job by the end of April. Are the 49'ers going to be happier because my life turns into misery? Wouldn't it be better for them if I joined and paied my percentage to their benefit?

The way things are right now I think you can compare the ban with Communism: It's a REALLY good principle, but it DOESN'T WORK in the real world.

That's my humble opinion.

Best of luck to you all (AOA member or not) and may the dispute be resolved soon. ;)

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. :cool:

[fliion]

Dr.S

Very good point. In fact by taking anything over and above what their earnings were when the 49er's were terminated is tantamount to profiteering from the situation and as such the same moral authority that the AOA labels the new joiners with the "s" word can now in fact be levied against anyone who has not donated their increased gains to support the 49er's.

A rebuttal may raise the question of 'what about the normal progress of expansion that would have happened had the 49er situation not ocurred' is a moot point because this could also support the argument for the new joiners.

It is important to note that the 'S' word is extremely potent and should remain on hollowed ground. In fact the 'S' word is to labour relations what the 'rape' word is to intimate relations or the word 'perjury' is to activities in a court room.

It is a life changing label that seriously affects any individual with whom it may be attached. For this reason it is imperative that it be used correctly. The wrong use (or insinuation - as that is the same) is a denigration to all who are members of a union. It completely dilutes the effectiveness of the word in future activities.

Let there be no doubt - anyone who crosses a union picket line of striking members who are forfeiting money, benefits, promotion etc. is a ...b But by insinuating or calling someone this (cprune) incorrectly (which is happening in this case) is an insult to every person who has ever gone on strike. (In the U.S. Continental, United, Northwest, EASTERN, and the list goes on)

Dear AOA , For the sake of the rest of us pilots (and wannabees) dotted around the globe who want to fly and earn a decent wage please stop corrupting the industrial action process by targeting a group of eager young 'uns who are donig nothing more and more importantly nothing less than you in the pursuit of a better life.

Note:before any of you go running off looking for a definition of the word, here it is;

From Random Houses "Websters English College Dictionary" circa 1999/2000-
"A worker who refuses to join a labour union or to participate in a union strike, who takes a striking worker's place on the job, or the like."

TO THE NEW JOINERS:You have done nothing of the above - so when you are in the third seat of the 340 or 400 for hours of silence you can take solace in the fact that neither have the two guys in front of you.

Respectfully

FLIION

[fliion]

mispelled hallowed amongst others - sorry

[saudipc-9]

fliion & Dr._Strangelove,
Excellent posts both!! It is really about time the HKAOA realized that they are fighting a losing battle and fighting it very poorly.
The time has come for everyone to put aside previous anger and rhetoric. Unite and start again, cus this war is finished and you are only making fools of yourselves!

[bigles]

YOU GUYS ARE NOT LEARNING THE LESSONS OF HISTORY. YOU'D BETTER GET THE "REPLACEMENT WORKERS"UNDER YOUR UMBRELLA. A NEW UNION FOR THE "REPLACEMENT WORKERS" WILL GIVE YOU A PROBLEM,YOU CANNOTT HANDLE.

[Pnooze]

What a mess, and what a shame.
As someone who was at CX from 1991-98 i can"t believe this soap opera is still going on. Where will it all end?
Good luck and Brgs Phil Saggs

[HotDog]

As someone who was with CX from 1966 to 1999, none of this sh!t would have happened under the managment of the times. Both Company and AOA.

[fire wall]

No Hot dog I cannot agree....this sh!t as you so aptly put it was spawned and nurtured in the 1992- 1999 period by both "managements"......for want of a better word.