BARCO Screens

[BEXIL160]

Dear all,

A few questions which I'd like to know the answers to:


1) What is the screen refresh rate for the BARCO colour screens?

2) Are they in use in any operational ATC environment (Area or APP)?

3) Are there any alternatives currently available, and in use in any operational facility?

Thanks...

Oh, why am I asking?

Well, it seems that the issue of the refresh rate of the tubes at LACC Swanwick has reached the local press.

For those that don't know, the screens at Swanwick refresh at 60hz. The Display screen Equipment regulations (1992) specify a MINIMUM rate of 70hz, and recommend not less than 75hz. Not really very surprising that users (ATCOs and ATSAs) have reported an increase in the number of headaches, directly attributable to the screens. (Long term effects? Unknown, apparently)

Anyway, the local paper (Portsmouth News 4/12/02) has managed to get a quote from one Richard Wright (who?) "spokesman for NATS" which goes like this:

... the screens low refresh rate was fixed by the frequency of the power supply and the next generation of radars (sic) which use non-flickering flat screens, [/B] were still another 10 years away[B]

The system is in widespread use around the world and there really isn't a system currently under development that doesn't use this refresh rate

Now, a final question. Is this "NATS spokesman" talking complete B*LL*CKS and if so why?

Answers anyone?

Rgds BEX

[Manu Forte]

Sorry, can't give you the technical stuff, but BHX have used Barco's for a couple of years now. Try giving the engineers there a ring for the refresh rate.

[Patrick Bateman]

60Hz sounds very low for such a large screen.

I have a 19inch monitor at home and the refresh rate I use is 100Hz.

If I change it to 60Hz the picture is very much harder on the eyes and does get a noticable flicker.

70Hz shows a big improvement but flicker is still visible particularly when not staring at the screen i.e keyboard.

A TFT monitor needs a lower refresh rate to look stable - about 72Hz.

The refresh rate is set by the Graphics Adapter however this is also dependent on what the monitor is capable of. Too high a refresh rate for a long period could result in damage.

Never ever heard of the power supply having anything to do with it!

You could always e-mail Barco themselves:

[email protected]

[A I]

So the frequency of the update is fixed by the power supply is it Mr Wright? (He's a OKS press office chap btw) Well, I seem to remember that the frequency of the UK National Grid is 50Hz. Maybe Swanwick runs on generators at 60Hz with back up from the Grid, but I think not.

Yes, you've guessed it, NATS is talking b******s again. I think that the problem is that the displays were ordered before the health and safety requirements were laid down. This problem is serious. The well being of NATS only tangible asset (the staff) is being compromised by an appallingly substandard work environment. We have only been at the dome for ten months but I suspect that the results of poor ergonomic design will be with us all for many years.

AI

[Spitoon]

No doubt Engineers will correct me if I'm wrong but the bigger the display the lower the refresh rate tends to be.

Bigger screen area takes longer to scan and so increased refresh rates cost correspondingly more to achieve.

[WhatWasThat]

We have been trialling BARCO screens here in OZ for several months. I cannot speak for my colleagues but I find them an improvement on the sony screens we had previously. I have not personally experienced any headache or eyestrain over and above what is usual.

[almost professional]

just spoken to our tels-the displays are capable of 46hz to 120hz, but pick up on what the scan converter pushes out which is 50hz in our case
we dont find them a problem at all, however a new display system is on trial at this time, supposedly one of the reasons is we can no longer get spares for the barco displays!

[spekesoftly]

We've used Barco colour monitors at our ATC(APR) unit for many years (10+), and I've never once heard a complaint about refresh rates, or headaches.(Not 'monitor induced', anyway!!) Generally well liked, good definition, and a pleasure to use.

I'll check out the spec. when I can, and post again.

[Lost_luggage34]

For the NERC guys & gals here - do you really have to sit in front of those things at a 60Hz refresh rate ??

That is an instant equation for eyestrain and headaches.

Technology has evolved enormously since the original large gas plasma screens were first introduced. I used and installed some of the first available almost 10 years ago - extremely expensive and very hot in operation.

The newer kit is cooler running and getting clearer with the LCD technology. But then NERC is probably (I am not in the know) realistically operating with fairly old technology albeit well proven.

BARCO's to my knowledge have been used in US ATC for quite some years. The refresh rate has absolutely nothing to do with the power supply frequency.

[zed3]

In the newly (2nd November) opened Eurocontrol Maastricht Ops Room all the Sony screens -over 100- are being replaced already by Barco screens which are much clearer. The cost I believe is 100,000 euros each!!! Don't know any tech details.

[BEXIL160]

Thanks to all for the answers (and for any other info / opinions)

Yes, we do indeed HAVE to sit in front of those 60Hz refresh rate screens at LACC Swanwick, and yes headaches are a problem.

Several points here:

1) No one knows the long term effects of exposure to "flicker". I can't imagine that it is good though.

2) Other, better, systems are available right now. Which make the "NATS Spokesman" either ill informed, or less than economical with the truth. He should be made to answer for his errors, deliberate or otherwise.

3) Despite what it says, and is required by law to do, NATS is not "ensuring the well being of its employees". Replacement of the screens in use at LACC Swanwick must be done as a matter of urgency .

It seems to me that the small matter of my, and my colleagues, health, is being IGNORED by NATS, possibly on cost grounds. How much is our long term health worth?

NATS Knows there is a problem. Can anyone tell me what it is doing about it? Internal communications are DIRE as is common knowledge.

tks

Rgds BEX

[Llamapoo]

Does this mean that the results of the working group on fonts and colours, etc. at Swanwick have not been made public? I would have expected that, in the face of such strong sentiments, the group would have circulated the options it considered and the reasons for and against them.

I know that the Human Factors Unit at ATMDC have been assertively 'educating' some of the members of the working group for a while now, and as a consequence NATS (including Everitt) knows EXACTLY what can and can't be done with the existing equipment. NATS also knows what the ideal solution is (if any such thing as an 'ideal solution' is possible).

Let's hope that projects such as FACTS and EPS do not suffer any unreasonable constraints/interference from those trying to cover their backsides, and are allowed to specify a system from both the software AND the hardware points of view.

[BDiONU]

After much wasted money and effort EPS has rightly been consigned to the dustbin. iFACTS is slowly grinding its way through simulation, but is a LONG way from providing anything useful. Other than highlighting the fact (again) that we really need more realistic Trajectory Prediction software.

Colours & fonts WG contained union reps and watch reps, so nothing attempting to be hidden there. Although I can assure you that my senior manager would NEVER condone any attempt to hide anything.

[Buster the Bear]

Used them for a while at a north London airport, they were brilliant, resolution superb compared to those used in a terminal control centre close to London. They could be in use now at an airport-on-sea close to Southend?

Technology is 10 years on.

Bet there is even better availalble now? they look like home televisions in dimension.

[garp]

Nice to read that you guys don't only appreciate our beer and chocolates but also our screens. It has to be said that they're probably the best the industry can offer for the time being.

[Scott Voigt]

Hi BEX;

We have two sites up and running on the BARCO ISIS displays right now. They are knocking off for the holidays but we will start up again in January with another install starting in Denver. We will do one facility a month as long as everything goes well.

Here's a press release from BARCO

BARCO is Awarded 16 Million USD Order to Supply ISIS Flat Panel LCD Main Display for US FAA Enroute Centers

ATCA, Washington, DC, USA, 7 November 02 BarcoView has received a 16 million USD order against a 51 million USD contract from Lockheed Martin ATM for the delivery of ISIS 2K x 2K flat panel displays as part of the US FAA Console Reconfiguration and MDM Replacement Program.

The ISIS panels will replace the Sony DDM displays in the US FAA enroute centers that have reached end of service life. BarcoView has been chosen by Lockheed Martin ATM to supply the 2K x 2K ISIS 28” diagonal square LCD main display panels because of their high optical quality and functional compatibility with the existing Sony DDM displays. Barco’s ISIS flat panel main display is the obvious choice because of its high image quality, low lifecycle cost and compatibility with the worldwide de facto ATC standard 20” x 20” square format at 2048 x 2048 resolution.

Moreover, the four mega-pixel ISIS flat panel main display can easily be integrated into both new and existing Controller Working Positions because of its small mechanical form factor.
br>Lockheed Martin ATM has installed the first delivery of ISIS flat panels at the Seattle, Washington air traffic control center. Salt Lake City, Utah and Denver, Colorado are currently in progress. BarcoView’s advanced ergonomic visualization solution will allow operators to display high-quality 2048 x 2048 high resolution images, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

This award represents the first large order of the ISIS display by the FAA and represents over nine months of testing and evaluation of the ISIS by Lockheed Martin ATM and the FAA. Barco will deliver this initial order over a one-year period and fulfill the remaining contractual deliveries by 2004.


There is also a web site that you can go to to get some more info on the screens...

http://www.barcoview.com/Download/ISIS%20Brochure.pdf

The BARCO screen looked great at the convention, but with the production model we ran into problems and had to have BARCO make some changes to the units to make them acceptable. As to the refresh rate. That is going to be determined not just by the monitor, but also the equipment driving the monitor. The bad news for us is that we are just replacing the display and not all the video driving equipment that runs it. That will come at a later date when we can afford it. In fact, the assistant position (D-side) will go through a technical refresh (new equipment) prior to the radar position due to the limitations that we are running into already with our new conflict probe equipment and other things that we want to add...

It appears that most of the issues that were left outstanding had to do with sites that kept the control room darker than some other sites. So they are working on the light leakage and I believe have that fixed. They are also working on being able to have more flexibility on changing more of the video settings from how we have them set now... Time will tell... We should start putting them in here at ZFW around the June time frame along with the URET conflict probe. Would probably be a good time for you to make a trip <G>... Well probably the fall would be better. We would have everything up and running, and the roads wouldn't be at melting temps <G>. I would hate to see a UK native melting away in front of me <BG>...

regards

[BEXIL160]

Thanks for all that Scott, all very useful and hopefully appearing on some Managers desk in the not too distant future!

Yes, the Fonts have been tweaked "a little", and are certainly an improvement over what NATS were still defending as "acceptable" when Swanwick opened earlier this year, despite having been repeatedly told during OCT that they were not acceptable. (I still have a copy of the e-mail encouraging OCT managers "not to mention display screen fonts" - they had been made bold, not changed as requested).

No, the point here is that the flicker of the screens at Swanwick is also not acceptable. At 60Hz they do not meet HSE DSE standards, and are a health hazard, long term exposure to which is UNKNOWN.

The suites at Swanwick are curved (Bananas), so sitting in the TAC position, your peripheral vision is also effected by the displays either side, and canted towards you. This may make the flicker situation WORSE as your senses are assaulted from all directions.

NATS response to this is that "Nothing else is available", backed up with the ludicrous statement to the press (above).

Facts are simple. There ARE other displays available right now. All the info (thankyou to all who provided it) is right in this thread, including contact details for the major supplier (BARCO).

So, WHY is NATS apparently doing nothing as a matter of urgency?
And why is it misleading the press, deliberately or otherwise?

Answers pls

Rgds
BEX

[BEXIL160]

Dear All,

I have recieved a nicely worded e-mail from Mr. Richard Wright, the NATS spokesman. He has asked me not to divulge what he has written, so I won't. Before I reply to him I need an answer to the following:

What is the ACTUAL refresh rate used / possible on the BARCO screens? Answers from any unit that has them appreciated.

Thanks

rgds BEX

[rodan]

Bexil - A point that you may need to clarify for the sake of accuracy, there seem to be 2 different types of Barco displays being mentioned here:

The monitors used by approach units all over the UK, and the flat-panel LCD displays that Scott was talking about.

I can't imagine the monitors are large enough meet NERC requirements, so I assume you mean the LCD panels?

rodan

[spekesoftly]

BEX,

Here's the info I promised earlier:-

BARCO 29'' CRT FST Colour Monitor (Orion 16) 1600x1200 pixels

Refresh Rate set at: 75Hz


I believe this monitor is no longer in production.

[BEXIL160]

RODAN... yes Indeed I do mean the BARCO ISIS Flat panel displays, but I am also interested in just what is "possible" from the smaller displays. Swanwick uses smaller SONY Tubes for SIS (information displays), they'll need replacing as well.

spekesoftly.. Thank you very much, just what I was after.

Any more?

Rgds BEX

Hmmm.....

It occurs to me that Refresh rates and "Flicker" are only a serious issue with CRT displays, as at Swanwick.

Earlier BARCO "tubes" used higher refresh rates (75hz+) to get away from flicker.

The ISIS displays are LCD flat panel, High Resolution with virtually no flicker. Screen refresh rate becomes less important, the elimination of Flicker is the key.

How come the ATMDC is still "trialling" them, when they have already been installed in the US and are about to be at EHAA?

Rgds BEX

[flower]

Bexil160,
Iam not sure what our model is of the Barco screen , but at Cardiff (yes we are a NATS unit) our refresh rate is 75 .There can be a very slight flicker if the brilliance is high, and I am advised by one of our engineers that there had been 2 complaints about the flickering at the unit.
However as someone who uses them every day I have never had any problem with them and I have certainly heard no complaints about persistent headaches caused by watching the Display at that refresh rate.

Hope this helps .

[BEXIL160]

Thank you FLOWER... another in the 75Hz range.

rgds BEX

P.S. Will Mr. Middleton be appearing at the South Coast Dome again? I did see him there, but he seems to have successfully escaped (again!)

[flower]

BEX
Mr Middleton along with myself and about 8 other Cardiff ATCOs will be descending onto the WEST End for visits very very soon,if you want that Pint off him you will have to grab him then !!!

Flower :)

[BEXIL160]

I shall be waiting Brian!

BEX

[NERC Dweller]

A little clarification

The large Situational Display screens in use at NERC as SONY 20" by 20" monitors operating at 2048 x 2048 pixels. I did find the model number but have forgotten it now. I do not know what the refresh rate is or what it can go to. The displays themselves are fed by a Barco Graphic Generator.

The smaller SIS screen is an IBM standard monitor I believe.

Why not change the Sony to the Barco ISIS?

2 Reason I an think of

1) Money. I don't think I need to say more

2) Test time. Although they seem to be a fairly straightforward replacement they do need to be tested at both the SW and HW levels (and not a little demo at the ATMDC either)

[Scott Voigt]

BEX;

Actually the ISIS displays and the Sony CRTs are the same display size. Our Sony's don't have any flicker to them and we are using some old drivers on them... The reason that we are replacing them is that the Sony's (which sat in a warehouse for a long time) are all reaching their service life. They are hard to keep in focus as the first operational sites and the techs are having a devil of a time working on them. There are NO replacements for them either as Sony quit making them.

By going to the ISIS displays we are also fixing another problem. That is of Safety Ergonomics for the techicians who work on the equipment from behind. The agency was going to have to build a shelf down low that could be moved so as to be able to get to the CRT display and the shelf would hold all of the communications equipment. By buying the LCD's, this frees up a large space where the CRT went and we are able to put the comm gear there for almost no expense. The mod paid for a bit of the LCD's...

regards

[torpids]

Re Bexil 160's 1644 of 6/Dec.....

LCDs use totally different technology to CRTs. LCDs do NOT flicker. Any reference to 'flicker rate' in the spec for an LCD display has a totally different meaning to that used for CRTs.
Consequently, no headaches.

Don't forget that the NATS Employee Handbook (our contract of employment with NATS), guarantees that all display screen equipment WILL comply with the relevant standards and regulations. The Sony screens do not, they never have and they never will. Consequently NATS (who are well aware of this dreadful state of affairs) are in clear breach of contract. They don't care because the union don't care......

Exactly what cosy stitch-up have they arranged between themselves, and who stands to benefit? (Other than Chisholm of course, and his big fat bonus secured for co-ercing us into working with this rubbish)

[BEXIL160]

Not sure that the union "don't care", but there certainly sin't much visible action on their part.

Anyway, we come full circle back to the original implication by NATS that there isn't anything better available. There is.

There is other, more suitable, proven and BETTER equipment available, with NO FLICKER. So why isn't being installed right now, given the serious Health implications of continued use of the SONY tubes?

The Cost of the replacement equipment.

NATS doesn't seem to take the cost to me (and my colleagues) of damaged health very seriously.

So, NATS Spokesman, I know that you read this very carefully, a simple question for you (or anybody else who knows the answer).

By what date will ALL the displays at LACC Swanwick be replaced by non-flickering, HSE compliant, Displays?

A simple question. Give me a simple answer.

Rgds BEX

[Findo]

Bexil. The BARCO screens have been tested in several areas both with users and a technical evaluation. Some have been purchased and are being used for further evaluation at Bournemouth.

If somebody does a quick calculation of the number of screens needed for the whole of Swanwick to be replaced, the whole of Bournemouth and the number needed for the MASOR and TC moves to Swanwick and eventually the new Prestwick Centre I am sure you might have an idea of just why there is more evaluation being carried out.

The BARCO screens are fairly new production technology and there are other companies offering similar technology. It would be an expensive jump from frying pan to fire if they were not as good in service as they initially look.

Hope you get an improvement soon.

[BEXIL160]

Frying Pan into Fire?

Yes, I understand the argument BUT:

1) the FAA have already spent 9 months evaluating the displays (and have ordered, and indeed are already using them)

2) Maastricht are about to start installing them as replacements for their displays.

I would have imagined that these TWO separate sources of evaluation data would have been enough. Why do we need to replicate tests that have already been done?

Any extratesting shouldn't take long, surely and I'm thinking weeks, not months. Foot dragging is not acceptable on "cost" grounds. This is a serious Health and Safety Issue.

Rgds BEX

[NERC Dweller]

1) the FAA have already spent 9 months evaluating the displays (and have ordered, and indeed are already using them)

2) Maastricht are about to start installing them as replacements for their displays.

I would have imagined that these TWO separate sources of evaluation data would have been enough. Why do we need to replicate tests that have already been done?


While it is very tempting to use these trials as test evidence it would be unwise. The equipment fit is somewhat different. I don't know how either DSR or ODS drive their Screens but I can hazard a few guesses.

In ODS case I doubt it is a CX3500 Graphics Generator. So a very major component in the display chain is different. This more or less invalidates any testing that Maastricht does as far as NERC is concerned. We can use their data (if they would share it with us) for Mean Time Between Failure purposes only.

DSR may use the CX3500 (Scott - do you know?). However they don't have WDM and the version of X-Server (The Software that tells the generator what to put on the screen) is probably different, so again I don't think we could use their tests as proof of them working at NERC.

Call me cautious if you like but ISIS needs to be tested in the ESS for a good few months before being put onto the OPS.

[BEXIL160]

Fair enough, nothing wrong with caution in a safety environment.

So, the FAA have been testing for 9 months, Maastricht for a similar period, just how far along is NATS on testing / evaluating these displays?

Don't forget, NATS have KNOWN that the SONY displays were not adequate for some considerable time. Let's be generous and say that NATS only found out about the problem last January (they knew long before then). What exactly has been achieved in the past 11 months? If it took the FAA 9 months, why is it taking our lot so much longer, particularly since we have an urgent health and safety problem?

I repeat my simple question: By what date will ALL the displays at LACC Swanwick be replaced by non-flickering, HSE compliant, Displays?

No excuses please. Just a date.

Rgds BEX

[BDiONU]

There's a report from NATS engineers late last year on the BARCO flat screen monitors. They were found wanting then for a variety of 'faults'. Subsequently there is at least one I've seen on trial at DAT&S but I have not seen any data on that.
Really there is no simple answer to your question. You could ask your watch's member of the Display Equipment Review Group (DERG).

[bookworm]

BEX

Absolutely no doubt that the quality of screens is very important to your long term health and I'm not for a moment trying to undermine that.

But I can't find any mention of display refresh rates in The Health and Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations 1992. It's much less specific than that, requiring an anaylsis by the employer of the suitability of the equipment for the task.

What's your source for the 70 Hz requirement?

[BEXIL160]

HSE report dated 15th March 2002

......the screens should be replaced with ones capable of a 75Hz refresh rate or better

I have some info that NATS was indeed investigating BARCO "prototypes" as far back as May 2001 , 8 months before NERC opened. A report was not produced until May 2002, but this only considered the BARCO prototypes, not the ISIS displays purchased by the FAA and EHAA.

Rgds BEX

[torpids]

Re: Bookworm's request of 0933 8/12....

As Bexhil has pointed out, the HSE report incorporated the reference to 75Hz as a requirement. However, long before that, at the time the CAA issued its formal Approval for Swanwick's equipment (pursuant to Article 104), the Regulator's own prescriptive document CAP 670 - "Air Traffic Services Requirements" - incorporated (and still incorporates) a recommendation for a frame refresh rate of 75 Hz, non- interlaced.

Consequently, amongst all its other failures re character sizes, viewing distances etc., the CAA knowingly approved the Swanwick screens with a refresh rate of only 60 Hz, in direct contravention of its own recommendations.

But of course, the CAA Chairman was rewarded with a £69,000 pay-off, recorded in the NATS company accounts.

[BDiONU]

Ah! Just spotted the common thread in posts!

Bex:
You say the HSE said "the screens should be replaced with ones capable of a 75Hz refresh rate or better"
The executive word there is "should" not shall.

Torpids:
You say the CAA said ""Air Traffic Services Requirements" - incorporated (and still incorporates) a recommendation for a frame refresh rate of 75 Hz, non- interlaced."
In this one the executive word is "recommendation" not requirement.

Neither of those august bodies have required NATS to implement what are, in management English, requests.

[BEXIL160]

Its a fair point, the legalities of is/to and shall/must versus the "recommend" and "Should".

(You know there is a "BUT" coming").... There is documentary evidence that the SONY displays are not adequate, and do cause flicker. There is documentary evidence that NATS HF were/are worried about the issue. There is documentary evidence that "flicker" is the cause of the increase in so many headaches and migraines.

Lets go a few years down the line..... ATCOs/ ATSAs eyesight damaged, more retirements on ill health, and a multi million pound/ euro lawsuit because NATS Knew there was a problem, and REFUSED to do anything about it . The defence that "We were just complying with the law" doesn't work.

NATS has a duty of care (THAT phrase again) to its staff. It doesn't appear to be complying with it.

Another question..... What is the "life" remaining in the SONY tubes at Swanwick? They've been there a LONG time now and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them had reached the end of their useful life.

Rgds BEX

[asdfgh]

The screens are often replaced. Those that aren't fit for controllers but still have some 'life' left in them are put into the ATSA position.
NATS get through them quite quickly because they are optimised for the Ops room at the upper limit of their capabilities.

[Bigears]

Ah- its all become clear- its another management ploy to get rid of the ATSAs! (this time through ill-health).

[Dances with Boffins]

Bex,
I don't want to make the SONY sound any better, because it probably isn't. However, my good lady wife has just had her non-flickering, LCD TFT display replaced at her place of employment, due to the headaches it caused her. She's gone back to her trusty old CRT. Makes you wonder what those BARCOs might do to the old grey-cells if they aren't tested properly. And if the gods have any evidence that replacing the SONYs won't avoid any headaches or eye problems, can you really see them spending the MILLIONS that would be needed to re-kit both ops rooms with BARCO or similar. They won't even buy us pens anymore... :mad:

PS Don't rely on Scott's countrymen for tests that suit our tender little European sensibilities. You wouldn't want to know what they allow their beef cattle to be injected with..

[BEXIL160]

I'm not suggesting we rely on the FAA info, as there should be data from Maastricht as well.

I dare say the Manufacturer might also be very keen to prove that the displays are better than the SONYs given the size of the replacement order required.

The Status Quo is not an Option here.

Rgds BEX

[Scott Voigt]

BEX;

I expect that there may be some changes between what you are running with and what we are running with. Even though LMART built both of our systems, I think that we had a wee bit more input on making changes to our system then your folks did. There were some tweakings that were required prior to us accepting the DSR display system... But we are still running on the old RISC6000 platforms, and I do believe that they are running on X windows.

As to our beef <G>... I don't remember us having to destroy most of ours <BG>. Cheap shot, I know, but someone else took the first shot. I'll continue to work on the BBQ....

From Texas

[BEXIL160]

Back to the usual problem, Scott. Lack of end user input during all phases of product definition, development, production and acceptance. Sadly an oft repeated, and expensive error in the UK.

Indeed within NATS the suits have deliberately ignored en-user input because it might have affected their schedule for the equipment. Never mind that the equipment isn't good enough.

Anyway, here we are, apparently stuck with displays that are a serious health issue and the management seem:

1) Not to accept there is any problem

2) Deny that there's anything better available

Wrong on both counts.

Rgds BEX.


P.S. never had a problem with US beef.... What's the name of that Brazillian place? Boi Na Braza or something like that?

[Muldrake]

All I can add to this discussion is that in the Danish ATC academy we use Barco 32´screens, with a lot of flickering and such. My believe is that they have a refresh rate of about 75 hz, which really seems too low, considering we use them daily for up to 8 hours. In the ACC and APP they use SONY screens, totally square, and the picture there is much better, actually deadstill. My instructors often complain af the low refresh rate in the SIM, and when you compare it to the real stuff, you would agree. Howewer the cost of our Barco screens is some 15-20000 Euros. For that kind of money, quite alot for just a monitor, I believe you could ask for more.

Just a thought...

[Euroc5175]

Prior to the introduction of any Thin Film Transistor Liquid Crystal Displays (TFT-LCD) on an operational position, there is an SRG requirement for a full safety analysis to have taken place prior to the replacement of any CRT displays.

ATSIN Number 18 of 19th August 2002 refers.

However, TFT-LCDs can be used on non operational positions, i.e. where the displays are not being used for the purpose of separating aircraft. Flat screen BARCOs will start to make an appearance on "non operational" positions in the near future.

[Scott Voigt]

BEX;

The brazilian beef place is something like that <g>. I take it that you are ready to go back for another go of all the beef and other type meats you can take <G>...

As to getting the agency to do what we want them too. You normally find that if you can generate enough pain or make some one famous enough in the media, they come around to your way of thinking.

regards

[Dances with Boffins]

Muldrake

We use square Sonys at the NATS college at Bournemouth on our APR and ACC sims, [the same ones that Bex is bothered with] and have done for 8 years now, with no flicker problem. However we, unlike LACC, are still using a near black radar background, with only CAS boundaries displayed as radar maps. Thus there is little actually being drawn on the screen to flicker. The LACC screens use a grey on grey display, which being a lot lighter, will reveal any flicker due to the refresh rate far more markedly than ours. Which is why Bex can see the flicker, and we can't.
The Barco displays Bex is referring to are the same size and shape as the Sonys [not the crappy 36" ones you have, and I suspect some of the other units in this thread have as well]. They are TFT LCD displays though, and thus only about 10cm thick. We have some of these under test at Hurn at the moment. They are much sharper than the Sony, but I personally don't like gazing at them for too long either.
Procedural service anyone?

[Lon More]

Bex
I dug the books out. The Barcos at Maastricht are 28 inch 26Kx26K Main Display Panels model MDP 471.
The manual - Nov 2001 version - specifies a refresh rate of 60hz which surprised me.
Seeing the Basco 7 Sony screens side by side on a daily basis the difference is remarkable.

NERC Dweller
Frm the same source; MBTF, standard calculated Ground Benign@25C is 33790 hrs. for digital input only; 30690 hrs. for analog input and 27315 hrs. for combined digital and analog input

[Spitoon]

Euroc5175 points out that there is a CAA notice about LCD screens. But it doesn't say anything about whether the displays are being used for the purpose of separating aircraft or not - it says that it applies to safety related CNS/ATM equipment. In my book this meeans anything with a screen on it visible from the working position.

[BEXIL160]

Thanks Lon..

With an LCD screen refresh rates are not critical since there is no descernable flicker. With CRTs (like the SONYs) however, it is really important. Anything less than 75hz is undesirable due to flicker.

Rgds BEX.

P.S. Where's me old colleague Traffic? He's usual good for an opinion (sometimes useful, always thought provoking) about anything. I kinda miss him.

BEX

[Lon More]

Bex,

TT is around, he was on leave looking at the Christmas lights in London - but he is now back and winding people up as usual, see the thread on salary

Lon More - more than just an ATCO

[sector8dear]

Rumour has it that the new simulator at LTCC will be using BARCO ISIS TFT displays rather than SONY - if so I guess thats quite a good way to test/evaluate them.