Captain Title [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

scroggs

8th Jan 2002, 00:55

And, as Richard's post above shows, the correct abbreviation of Captain is Capt. If you are going to appropriate the title for your non-aviation life (why??), at least get it right.
Frankly, those who need to know you're a captain will give you the appropriate respect (if and when you've earned it). Why should those who don't need to know care one way or the other?

Busta Level

8th Jan 2002, 03:37

Did Captain Caveman fly for an airline or earn anybody's respect? Should he have withdrawn his title?

He was very handy with a club though... <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

beamer

8th Jan 2002, 15:19

The title 'Captain' is relevant only in the
context of your day to day working life. It is
of no relevance whatsoever elsewhere and in my
view at least should not be used in any other context. As an aside our ex-military colleagues are only 'entitled' to use ranks of Major(or equivilant) and above in retirement from the forces but thankfully precious few of them do so as far as I am aware.

It seems the notion of being a 'Captain' goes
back to the sea where everyone in charge of a
vessel from the tiniest fishing smack up to a great ocean liner would be called Captain - if one
of a tiny number of skippers of the great liners
or supertankers then perhaps justified but when
one goes down the scale ? The black/blue uniforms
covered in braid and scrambled egg on the cap - it
all dates back to the great days of seafaring. We
put up with it to this day in the airline business
but please when you get back into the car on the
way home leave it on the back seat. To insist on
being called Captain when being called up by crewing(yes, people do !) is nothing more than
pretentious - you know you've done the time and
made the effort to reach the LHS - why go on an
ego-trip, its just not that important !

5150

8th Jan 2002, 16:05

Get a life

Trislander

8th Jan 2002, 23:09

Naples Air Center - Thank you for your answer. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
----------------------------------------------
Everyone else-
Well thank you for your ever-so-kind replies!

If you read the first line of my post, it says "out of interest" because I was asked by someone who has little knowledge of aviation and thought that I, as a PPL, might have some idea WHICH I DO NOT BECAUSE I AM NOT A CAPTAIN so I thought the ever-cooperative (I now laugh) wannabes might like to help me answer his question.

Thanks for nothing.
Trislander. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Wireless

8th Jan 2002, 23:20

Sorry to see the replies you had Trislander. Er..it kind of makes one nervous to ask anything. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Loc-out

8th Jan 2002, 23:23

The people I've flown with or known in the past who have felt the need to put Capt. in front of their name, outside of work, have been absolute tossers, to a man.

[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: Loc-out ]

Pilot Pete

9th Jan 2002, 03:18

Capt. Gentil

You distinctly told me to call you 'Richard' as we drove around Naples Airport on your golf cart looking at the 150's of a rival that were drying out from another 'Gulf ditching'!

Beamer

You'd be suprised just how many 'Majors' and above use their title. I worked in a small branch of Lloyds Bank when I left school and we had at least 3 on the books.......tossers? Every one of them to a man!

regards

First Officer Pilot Pete JMC, 15m Breast Stroke.

scroggs

9th Jan 2002, 03:35

Trislander,
sorry if you found my reply a bit 'robust'; it wasn't meant to be - but your post did come over as though you were planning your elevation to Capt and wondering how you would change the headed writing paper from chez Tri!
In UK, perhaps more than the US, the use of a professional title, other than Doctor, outside the place of work is somewhat frowned upon by society. You may speculate on the UK society's love of mediocrity and its reluctance to celebrate success as perhaps the reason for this, but it is so. As a result, we tend not to use our title outside work - even our own people sneer at the 'vanity' of those who do style themselves Capt. Bloggs in civilian life. Even Knights and Peers of the Realm are now somewhat coy about their titles, usually earned by bloody hard work in some field or other.
It's interesting to compare this with, say, Italian society in which one is expected to wear one's professional title with pride - witness the prefix 'Ing.' for engineer.
Discuss, with examples....!

QUERY

9th Jan 2002, 04:12

Capt. Irrelevant, or Poseur, but it helps when you are simply trying to advertise your flying school.

Blackshirt

9th Jan 2002, 06:03

One should refer to self using professional titles in other than in a strictly professional environment. This sort of thing may be the done thing in deepest, darkest Africa, but never in England, unless the desired effect is to create the impression of being some sort of Capt. Mainwaring wannabe.

As an aside, in polite circles, correct etiquette dictates that hotel reservations et al should be made in one's surname only.

Evo7

9th Jan 2002, 12:08

Scroggs

Just to add to your point about Ing. being used as a prefix in Italy, if you get a CEng from the UK Engineering Council or associated institutions then you can also get EurIng from the Federation Europeene d'Associations Nationales d'Ingenieurs. CEng, being British, goes after your name, while EurIng, being European, can be used before your name. I think you are right about the reasons why.

Now, EurIng Dr Evo7 DPhil CEng etc. is a bit of a mouthful, but I guess I could use it. I've got a CPhys too (with an associated EurPhys) which would really make it long winded.... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Trilander

My reply was serious. There is no 'procedure' - if it matters to you then you simply ask people to change the title they use. I'm split between Mr. and Dr., just because there are some situations - mostly professional - where it is worth using Dr. However, I couldn't give a stuff what the bank call me and can't be faffed trying to get them to change it. As others have pointed out, it's what your peers think of you that counts anyway.

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Evo7 ]

Sensible

9th Jan 2002, 12:22

Surely, if you are a PPL in command of ANY aircraft as PIC then one is entitled to be called Capt. What difference does size make? It's not the size, it's the way you operate it that counts! :) :)

Capt. Sensible :)

beamer

9th Jan 2002, 13:53

Pilot Pete

I am sorry to hear that quite so many people use
ex-military rank - I was always a little concerned
about CAPTAIN Mark Phillips and the like - perhaps
it is deemed acceptable in 'horsey' circles ?

Scroggs is quite correct in his analysis of society in the UK where generally a certain amount
of understatement is deemed appropriate.

Doctors it seems have really made it up the tree
when they become consultants and are then now by
the prefix MR (no sexism intended ladies). Pilots
know they have made it when having achieved command of a proper aircraft(here comes the flak)
they can put their gold or silver braid on their
shoulders and forget about it- the ones who go on
and on about it just need to grow up a little.

Mind you - I did come across a chap on the UK
airline scene who wore a medal ribbon on his
company uniform - and no, it was'nt an AFC just
a widely awarded campaign gong - very strange !

Evo7

9th Jan 2002, 14:19

[quote]
Doctors it seems have really made it up the tree
when they become consultants and are then now by
the prefix MR (no sexism intended ladies).
<hr></blockquote>

Surgeons, rather than consultants, revert to Mr. by tradition once they qualify - in the dim and distant past a surgeon did not do a degree in medicine. However, at least in the UK, calling a person with a batchelor's degree in medicine 'Doctor' is actually an honourific (much like calling the chap in the left hand seat Captain), and so a surgeon is not actually giving anything up - he or she doesn't actually have the title in the first place. An actual medical Doctorate is a postgraduate degree taken by medics who already hold a batchelor's degree in medicine and, I think, surgery.

Big Tudor

9th Jan 2002, 14:38

Upon retirment from the Britsh Army one is permitted to be addressed by military rank only if one had achieved major or above (or equivalent in other services). Capt. Mark Phillips' indiscretion was overlooked on the grounds of him being married to royalty.
During my time serving Her Maj' I saw no end of people with Wg Cdr (rtd) on business cards, credit cards, cheque cards, etc. I never saw any with Sgt(rtd) on them tho'. Vanity is a wonderful thing.

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Big Tudor ]

Pilot Pete

9th Jan 2002, 15:53

Query

Quite right, using it to advertise your flying school is completely professional and desireable, lets face it, who'd want to sign up for training under 2nd Officer Joe Bloggs?

Beamer

Sad indeed isn't it.

Big Tudor

You are quite correct sir, notice I do not use C/Sgt(rtd) except when required in an argument with the missus (who is L/CPL(rtd)!!!!!!!) :)

As ever, Scroggs puts it most eloquently.

PP

QNH 1013

9th Jan 2002, 17:31

Evo7 is absolutely correct when he points out that in the UK physicians, who are commonly known as "doctors" are using a courtesy title when they use "Dr" as a title. Courtesy titles should not be used in other contexts (but often are, particularly by members of the BMA!) Most of the public actually believe their GPs have doctorates! In fact the majority have bachelor or first degrees. (nb a first degree should not be confused with a first-class degree.)
After first degrees, the higher UK degrees are Masters degrees, and then Doctorates. For these latter graduates, "Dr" is a real title.
Another oddity of the UK system is that the title "Professor" is changed to Professor Emeritus, or dropped altogether on retirement.

Under UK law, titles are not protected and you can use any title you choose. However, what is illegal is to obtain any advantage by using a title you are not entitled to use.

For "Dr" to be a real title in the UK you must have been awarded a doctorate by a University that has a charter to award degrees. In the UK I believe these charters can only be awarded by the Privy Council, so the University of PPRUNE degrees won't count. I don't believe there is any similar formal definition for the title "Capt" unless anyone else knows otherwise.

On my first trial lesson, I was surprised to be addressed as "Captain" by my instructor. I later learnt that this was his trademark, and not all students are addressed in the same way by their instructors. Mind you, he called me a few other things as well when I was trying to get the hang of landing. Oddly enough, he was a physicist with a PhD too.

Chocks Wahay

9th Jan 2002, 17:50

And, oddly enough, he was the Captain, not you :-)

Does the restriction on using military rank apply to RAF? Is it a legal thing, or a "Gentleman's agreement" type thing? On the Chinook crash website we have a lot of people who have signed the petition as Flt Lt X etc. It is relevant in this case rather than ego-based though.

scroggs

9th Jan 2002, 23:17

Chocks,
if I remember rightly from my own retirement process, the right to retain your military title is spelled out in Queen's Regulations. It is the same for all three services. I have a feeling that it applies to all those of Captain (army) rank and above, not Major - but I may be wrong. As the modern general public seems not to value Service experience - and indeed, tends to regard ex-miltary officers as somewhat worthless snobs - it's very rare for anyone to use their military ranks after retirement, perhaps sadly.

PPRuNe Towers

9th Jan 2002, 23:20

Would this be the wrong time to mention that AFE do a set of epaullettes with 5 bars? :) :)

Wee Weasley Welshman

10th Jan 2002, 00:07

But Transair charge more for them!

WWW

Megaton

10th Jan 2002, 00:10

WWW,

So you've been comparing prices then for your 5 gold bars? :) :)

Naples Air Center, Inc.

10th Jan 2002, 04:01

Trislander,

Not sure where your thread is going and if you received a full answer to your question. If your friend is looking to get a good understanding of the relationship of Captain and First Officer, and how airlines work, may I suggest the book, "<a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0671636030/customer-reviews/qid=1010620323/202-0853069-3813459" target="_blank">Fate Is the Hunter</a>", written by Ernest K. Gann. For anyone looking for an airline career, it's a must read. Do not bother renting the movie about the book (with the same title), since it has nothing to do with the book. (Typical Hollywood)

The title of Capt. in aviation should not be used outside of aviation. Also, it should not be used until earned.

There are schools that issue stripes to students, instructors, and examiners. That is something that I find in poor taste and I believe most of the industry does frown upon it too. Main reason is that the person wearing the stripes has not earned them. It does look funny to see a person hop out of a C-152 with three stripes on. Its like, "You have not made PIC in that aircraft yet?"

Anyone who wears their stripes outside of the aviation community does so for ego and ego does not belong in aviation.

I hope this answers your friend's question and to anyone looking for an aviation career, do read "<a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0671636030/customer-reviews/qid=1010620323/202-0853069-3813459" target="_blank">Fate Is the Hunter</a>", it was written in the 1950's and is still 100% relevant today.

Best of Luck,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[Edited for Typo]

[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Naples Air Center, Inc. ]

rebeccadblake

10th Jan 2002, 04:18

NAPLES.........Ha.. funny I was serously considering going to Naples(qoutes and all)
but if he can't even read, and respond to a simple question nicely(let alone correctly) then I think I will go to my second choice.
AGAIN NAPLES.......

my father is a capt and he isn't anything to do with aviation.. he is a nautical capt, in other words he sails boats.. and belive me he has earnt it.

I also think that there is noting wrong with wearing stipes.. it fills you with confidence, you have to go though such **** doing ATPL's it just makes you relise where you are going...

but I do think that we "wannabees" should be educated on the manerisim/airmanship of wearing them.. i.e not wearing them outside your aviation grounds....

mind you they are a bit of a bastard to get of pilot shirts mine are a nightmare, can understand why they dont bother..hahahha

[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Cheshire cat EGHH ]

Chuck Ellsworth

10th Jan 2002, 04:26

Richard:

Not only is Fate is the Hunter a must read but any of Earnest Gann books are " MUST " reads for any pilot of any age or experience.

There has never been anyone that can match E. Gann for pure aviation writing skills.

Sadly Earnest passed away some years ago, he was a friend of mine and we last talked standing beside his Wing Derringer that he had just added a strike finder to, he was quite the expert with words and I would love to tell you what he thought about his strike finder. Trouble is the moderator would sensor it.

Anyhow you are right on about reading his books. My favourite is Blaze of Noon.

All the best with your school, you seem to have a good product by the support you receive here, and nothing beats satisfied customers.

..................

:) The two most dangerous words in aviation " WATCH THIS " :)

Facts Not Fiction Pls

10th Jan 2002, 04:37

Cat

I agree - great author all around, but it seems that his work isn't as famous in the aviation industry as it should be.

Will look into the other title

Cheshire cat

<<Ha.. funny I was serously considering going to Naples(qoutes and all)
but if he can't even read, and respond to a simple question nicely(let alone correctly) then I think I will go to my second choice. >>

???????? Don't see where you are going with this or what is meant by it? Alas it seems you might be the confused one! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Evo 7

<<'Doctor' is actually an honourific (much like calling the chap in the left hand seat Captain)>>

Agree whole heartedly - in the same manner lives are in each of a pilots and a doctors hands. However it sems that Doctors using their title in everyday life is regarded positively however to the contrary with a Captain!

Naples Air Center, Inc.

10th Jan 2002, 04:47

Cat Driver,

Hope you had a great Christmas.

I will never forget the Day he died. I was Jump Seating on an American Airlines flight from DFW to RSW when the news came across the LCARS. It was a sad and quiet flight for 2 hours which seemed like an eternity.

I never had a chance to meet the man, but a good friend (retired Delta Airlines) used to fly with him at the "un-named steamship company". I heard some interesting stories that never made the book and I am sure never will.

Take Care Chuck,

Richard

Chuck Ellsworth

10th Jan 2002, 05:06

Thanks Richard:

There are two people whom I look on as my bench marks in aviation.

Earnest Gann as an author and Bob Hoover as the ultimate smooth gifted pilot.

I would also like to make one more comment on the wannabe thread.

If we strive to support each other rather than denegrade each other aviation will be a better industry.

It is so easy to make judgements based on a little knowledge of those whom we are commenting on.

It requires class and character to say nothing or at least be careful when commenting. God knows I have made a complete ass##le of myself many times by giving my opinion without knowing the person whom I was denegrading, so I try to get to know them now. Then if I find out the person is truly a dork it ain't so bad commenting.

...................

:) The two most dangerous words in aviation " WATCH THIS " :)

beamer

10th Jan 2002, 12:29

Scroggs - I'm still sure its Major and above but
the basic concept remains the same - bad form old
boy !

Have to agree with the chap from Naples - 'Fate
is the Hunter' is the one book to read if you are
about to embark on an aviation career - makes you
realise how easy we have it these days. (I do have
a nice first UK edition for sale with original
dustjacket if anyone's interested)

As a back up 'A Gift of Wings' by Richard Bach
is a nice collection of short articles written
before he went all spiritual.

Fil

10th Jan 2002, 14:40

I seem to remember a thread here on PPRUNE a few years ago. What happened was that the author had recently had a letter published in one of the broadsheets and the newspaper, on discovering he was an airline skipper, had changed his name at the end to 'Captain Fred Bloggs'

A week later he received a VERY snotty letter from an Army Lt. Colonel (retired) (or something like that) about the use of the title 'Captain' and how as an aircraft commander he was not entitled to use it etc etc. Quite an interesting thread ensued.

It only takes 2% of persons in any walk of life to give a bad name and it is t*ssers such as this Army Arse bring down the reputations of ex/military persons.