Justify your flying!

[sennadog]

It's just occurred to me that if a pub conversation came up (all the best convos happen in a pub:D ) and somebody started up with some typical NIMBY comments about small planes buzzing around in the air causing a nuisance, I'd struggle to justify my hobby.

So, pull yourself a pint, have a seat and give me some decent ammo to dish out should this convo ever occur. In other words, what benefits does flying bring to the economy etc.

Answers on a post card please.

:D

[FlyingForFun]

Well, I'd start of by (nicely!) asking them to justify their "comments about small planes buzzing around in the air causing a nuisance". People who enjoy fishing, or gardening, or riding a motorbike don't have to justify themselves, so why should we? On the other hand, if someone has a legitimate complaint about weekend motorcyclists, the motor-cycle industry should address - as should we if people have legitimate complaints.

Unless the complainant lives near an airfield, explaining the low-flying rules (500', 1500', 1000m and land-clear) should be sufficient.

If the complainant does live near an airfield, find out if they are under the circuit, and suggest they

Go for a flight with you, during which you will not only introduct them to the joys of flying, but also demonstrate why it's necessary to fly over their village
Talk to the CFI at the local flying school, because it may be possible to publish a noise-abatement circuit which avoids their house, especially if a whole village is affected. Of course they shouldn't actually complain to the CFI - they will achieve far more if they enter a reasonable discussion with the CFI, proposing alternatives and listening to what the CFI has to say (which you may be able to help them with, of course).

Although justification of flying shouldn't be necessary, that doesn't mean it's impossible. Airline pilots need to be trained. Business aircraft need to have airfields to be based at, as do air ambulances, police helicoptors and so on. Private aviation pours a lot of money into airfields - if private aviation were to cease overnight, the airfields would close down, causing commercial training and other light commercial aviation all kinds of problems. Not to mention the unemployment at the airfields - operations staff, flying instructors, ground-crew, maintenance, and so on. Many airfields also have an busy social calendar, including a bar which is used by pilots when they're not flying, and may be used for private functions. Then there's the indirect effect on the petro-chemicals industry (you and I know that AvGas accounts for a tiny proportion of all the fuel sold, but the average man-in-the-pub assumes aeroplanes use tons of fuel!) and the manufacturing industry.

I'm sure I could carry on, but I need to do a bit of work at some point today.... :D

FFF
----------------

[Aussie Andy]

G'day sennadog - good question!

In my view, we shouldn't need to justify ourselves - we should have the freedom to pursue what we want to as long as we don't cause undue harm to others.

Just as those that are passionate about, I don't know: say pigeon racing, love what they do then we too should, within the bounds of civil society, be able to do what we are passionate about - as long as it is legal..!

Of course if, say, a pigoen fancier lived next door to me and his pigeons made too much noise / smell or whatever (the same might go for horses or cars or loud stereos, whatever) then I'd of course expect some constraint and that some moderation, or abatement, of this behaviour so that my own right to relax in my own home was properly taken into account.

My point however is that, just as those who partake of pigeon fancying, car collection, horse keeping or stereo-playing don't have to justify their passions/interests, then nor do we. But, like anyone else, we must be "good neighbours", within reason.

If justification is required, then I'd point out the benefits of GA overall, such as the fact that a training infrastructure is required for example. I think we probably do need to get better at articulating this.

If the question is why do we enjoy it, then thats different... and a whole 'nother question :) Of course, we love it - or we wouldn't spend so much time nor money on it!

Now: back to work so that I have the means with which to exercise my right to enjoy my passion(s) :)

Cheers,


(P.S. I see FFF has posted simultaneoulsy - I agree with his articulation, better than mine!)

[long final]

I would be interested to know how many times you all have had that question asked in a social environment. Only once for me - my Auntie (who is so far up her pompous ...... ) made the 'annoying little buzzing things' comment. Apart from that most everyone else has either been interested about flying or plain uninterested.

As to the original question - my hobbies are flying, motor biking and water skiing. I’d plead guilty - noisy and fuel guzzling - good fun though, isn't that enough? ;)

LF

[singaporegirl]

There's a thread on the Flyer forum at the moment giving a couple of examples of where local airfields have been closed down and the locals are now regretting it. Apparently this is because the land has been developed (surprise, surprise! :rolleyes: ) and now, rather than the occasional 'irritating' buzz of light aircraft during the day, they're plagued by the noise of articulated lorries loading up at all hours, as well as new roads, increased traffic, 'loitering youths', and an increase in related crime.

Better the devil you know?

[Beethoven]

I would politely suggest to them that if the occasional aircraft causes them so much upset,with everything else going on in the world at the moment,then they are fortunate indeed to have to look so hard for someting to worry about.Most of the rest of the planet have no such luxury.
In answer to the question,I would simply tell them that my flying will lead to me being an airline pilot in the near future and that they will be more than happy to use my services then,regardless of the noise my airliner makes as it takes off over deprived inner city areas where most people can't afford to go abroad,and therefore should not be subject to the noise of other people using planes for their own pleasure...which after all is what airline passengers in the main are doing..using a plane for personal pleasure.
"What about flyers who don't want to go professional?why should we put up with them?"...Because 90 percent of the people who teach them to fly will end up going on to haul your ass on holiday and without customers,NO PILOTS!!
It's quite staggering actually how many people think Airline piilots are trained in simulators and not in the "small,buzzy,dangerous things".

[Whirlybird]

I've very occasionally had this happen with respect to helicopters. I've explained about the 500ft rule, and apologised for those of my fellow flyers who break it. I've agreed that helicopters are noisy and gas guzzling, said it's a shame that they are, but they really are tremendous fun, and also save lives etc. Would the person like to come up with me so I can show them what I mean, I ask? That sort of non-confrontational approach always seems to work, especially if you buy the next round. ;)

[Who has control?]

Without wishing to kill this thread stone dead, can I suggest a look at the General Aviation Awareness Councils site:- GAAC (http://www.gaac.co.uk/)

My justification? I enjoy it. The feeling I get from climbing high on a clear still day & seeing the world spread below me cannot be easily conveyed to a non-aviator.

[big.al]

Hmm - it's a bit like asking a skier to justify why he pays a hundred quid to go to the top of a mountain, only to come back down and then do it all over again and again. And skiing is my other hobby....

For me flying and skiing are the best fun you can have with your clothes on. I wonder what it's like trying both at once.... anybody know of a light a/c with skis I can try out...?!

Aviation = fun = jobs = employment. Aviation can saves lives. It brings people together and allows us to broaden our horizons beyond the end of the NIMBYs' backyard. No further justification should be needed. And if they don't like it, we should be able to get a compulsory-purchase order to bulldoze their house and build another runway...:p

What proportion of 'objectors' to flying are more than happy to travel to someone else's back yard, jump onto a 737 and head off to the Costa for their holidays? Without grass-roots aviation (at the very least to train new pilots) there would be no 737s and getting to the Costa del Mucho would be a long drive....

[QDMQDMQDM]

If the people you talk to in the pub ask you to justify your flying, you are talking to the wrong people. Life is too short to waste like that.

QDM

[sennadog]

Clearly some people's reading skills need improving - this is a hypothetical situation as I clearly outlined in my original post.

Increasingly nowadays, hard core tree huggers (call them what you will) are questioning just about every hobby/pastime and it's impact on the environment/people etc. Whether or not pilots feel that they should have to justify their pastime is to my mind, an out of touch attitude, which has possibly led to the situation (in the UK at least) whereby airfields and flying in general are being questioned if not threatened outright - hence this thread.

So, in no particular order....

GA promotes:

Employment for future airline pilots.

Employment for Instructors, engineers and ancillary industry allied to aviation.

GA can make a positive contribution to safety in the form of supplying future pilots for Air Ambulance and Police work.

Complainants about noise pollution should then consider the relevance of this compared to modern jet engines and then consider how they are going to get a summer holiday without the industry.

Possible alternatives to airfield closure are new developments with the ensuing chaos that occurs during building works plus the increased strain on the local infrastructure.

Taxation on items such as Avgas contributes some £12m to the Exchequer.

Airfields provide jobs for the local economy plus local taxation which the area benefits from.

Does anyone have any idea what the overall contribution in the form of tax revenue is in the UK?

[Julian]

Just tell the tree huggers that us flying round destroying the environment gives them something to hold meetings about :D

[MLS-12D]

sennadog,

Here are a few links from the USA that may be of interest:

(1) http://www.gaservingamerica.org/our_economy/economy.htm
(2) http://www.senate.gov/~commerce/hearings/0329swa.PDF
(3) http://www.partners-solberg.org/ga.htm

Should give you plenty of ammunition for that hypothetical pub encounter!:D

MLS-12D

P.S. The General Aviation Awareness Council [www.gaac.co.uk/ga/generalaviationlowres.pdf] makes the interesting - and I believe perfectly valid - point that the great majority (85%) of scheduled air carriage is for personal pleasure, i.e. passengers jetting off on vacation and return.

So, while there is an undeniable element of truth in the argument that much of general aviation consists of pilots more or less aimlessly flying around and unproductively consuming fosil fuels, the same can be said of the airlines ... and somehow I don't anticipate that they are under any threat (except for economics, of course!).

[Ace Rimmer]

Pulls out his copy of the DETR (or whatever it is this week)/ OEF study on the the impact of air transport ( a little off the small buzzy things thread but its good ammo)

Air Transport (in 1998) contributed £10.2 bn to the GDP (1.4% of the total)
Directlyu employed 180,000 people (with an estimated 540,000 further jobs through the supply chain)

Produced around two and ahalf times as much value added per head as the Uk industry average

Exported £6.6 bn worth of services that's 3% of all UK exports

Contributed £2.5 bn to the exchequer.

And that's from '98 it's about the same level now since the falls in traffic at the worst brought things back to '98 levels and have improved a bit since then (bout this time last year).

or take em flying and convert em

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have never attempted to justify my private flying, beyond the fact that it supports my day-job. Hobbies are a basic human characteristic (and especially an Anglo-Saxon one), we happen to choose this as opposed to stamp-collecting, rock-climbing or a thousand other enjoyable ways of spending one's sapre time.

I will happily spend a lot of time justifying why I fly what I do in the way that I do.

G

[Flyin'Dutch']

I like it!

FD

PS: I do think that we should make the machines quieter and more fuel efficient. But that is also as I dont like noise myself and would like to spend less bucks on fuel and fly further.

This is a potentially very difficult debate and the problem is that the axioms and moral values as assumed by the various parties are so wide apart that to agree any communality is extremely difficult.

And yes I have had people complain about the noise that gliders make.

Good thing for them that everyone over here has the freedom of expression.

[jonathang]

Anyone you need to Justify the reasons too.

Take them up for a flight and thats all they will need :) :D

[ratsarrse]

I lived near Bedford for about 27 years. My house was roughly under the point where people intercept the glidescope for R22 at Cranfield, we had all sorts of planes doing endless circuits out of Thurleigh (I remember a Hercules flying low and slow for hours at a time) and for a while airships humming over head. I loved it! Summer evenings, sitting in the garden watching the planes do their thing. It is probably this that has eventually inspired me to fly myself.
In recent years, Thurleigh has closed; the airships are no more; and things are much quieter. I worked nights for a while - you become hypersensitive to noise when you're trying to sleep during the day. The aircraft just didn't register at all. I just don't buy the noise argument at all - unless you live right next to the airport. The noises that are a nuisance are: dogs barking, sodding church bells, car horns, car races, people talking (well, shouting) on the way home from the pub, kids doing just about anything, lorries reversing (especially those with the immensely irritating and patronising "warning, vehicle reversing" announcements, and last and by no means least lawnmowers. You don't hear anyone suggesting that we should ban dogs/churches/cars/pubs/children/lorries/grass/gardens. Whew! Glad to get that off my chest!

[criticalmass]

Don't even bother to justify your flying. Flying is like sex...if you're talking about it, you're not actually doing it, are you?:D

[Genghis the Engineer]

Beg to differ.

I work (well sometimes) in an office next to a large Church. Usually on a hot summers day, the local brethren love nothing more than a couple of hours continuous bellringing when we want to get some work done. Yes, I have been guilty of the odd strong word with the Vicar.

I think it's down to consideration, the odd 10 minutes bells before a service, and a regularly varied circuit flown considerately should be accepted. ?00 powered approaches a day over the same house, or 2 hours of continuous bellringing aren't going to impress anybody are they.

G

[Kefuddle_UK]

I have to 100% agree about the lawnmowers! I live near Farnbourough and so we get a reasonable number of low flyers and chinooks. These are noisy but....the biggest cause of noise pollution are lawnmowers, roadworks, handheld drills, hedgeclippers and motorbikes!

Oft is the time, on a balmy summer's day that I install my favourite deck chair in my not too short grass, close my eyes, MEEEEEOOWWWWMEEWWOOOEEWWWWEEEEEEEWMMMWWWEOOW, lawnmowers for seemgly bl**dy hours. Every bl**dy weekend of the summer. Once one guys gets his out it is a calling to all other owners of a wide variety of petrol and electric mowers to strut their stuff! A short pause followed by the hedge clippers. Then time for tea then the DIYers are in the garage drilling and banging until early evening. Oh, and whilst I am ranting, as soon as the weather is warm in this country, everybody seems to think it is time wind up their stereos and wind down/open their windows....grrrrr :mad:

Oh and being near to the Army training grounds we often hear a lot of automatic gunfire...and the chinooks. But our boys in green need to stay sharp so not a problem with me :)

Aircraft really only add a small amount to this concopheny. But now I have this off my chest I feel much better :D

Shhhhhhhh!
Kef.