Puma down in Richards Bay

[4HolerPoler]

Just received this & was hoping that someone closer to the scene had better gen. Here's hoping everyone got out OK. Sounds like ST's bunch.

Chopper crashes on Jolly Rubino(tanker, ran aground on fire recently)

Durban - Six people were rushed to a Richards Bay hospital in KwaZulu-Natal after a Puma helicopter crashed on the deck of the Jolly Rubino trawler on Saturday morning, government officials said. The aircraft, carrying 17 passengers, caught fire immediately after it crashed in Richards Bay, environmental affairs spokesperson Zodumo Mbuli said.

Mbuli said the six passengers were in a critical condition. The rest escaped unscathed. They were being evacuated from the aircraft. "Our people are currently at the scene. We are investigating the cause of the accident. We want to know how it happened," she said. Police spokesperson, Superintendent Vishnu Naidoo, said the accident occurred around 07:30 and that a 17-member crew were salvaging the remains of the Italian cargo vessel which grounded on a sandbank 1.2km north east of the Cape St Lucia lighthouse.

The Jolly Rubino was en route from Durban to Mombasa when it caught fire about three months ago. It was carrying a cargo of container with hazardous and highly flammable chemicals when it burnt about 22 miles off Richards Bay.

[Pontius' Pilot]

I have friends flying up there, anyone know who was involved?

[Gunship]

Gesien dat Eddie Brown amper met helikopter en al in die see gebliksem het toe hy herwinningsmense op die Jolly Rubino (skip vol olie wat by St Lucia gestrand het) gaan aflaai het. Het 'n pletterlanding gedoen; chopper het teen 21 grade helling begin afgly en aan die brand geslaan. Hy en Martin van de Riet en twee grondbemanningslede het allerlei beserings - Eddie die meeste met 'n ontwrigte skouer, gekraakte enkel en af ligamente. Le^ in die hospitaal in Richardsbaai. Het vanoggend met hom gesels en hy maak al weer grappies. Lees alles more in Beeld!!

OK I WILL EDIT AND TRANSLATE DUE TO POPULAR DEMAND :D

I am glad to announce that all the crew and pax are fine ... dunno where Mbuli's "6 critical" comes from .. anyway

Eddie Brown a VERY experienced pilot (and friend) came out as the most "damaged" , shoulder, ankle and ligaments - definately NOT critical as he was cracking jokes on Saturday afternoon with the Afrikaans reporter.

The co-pilot Martin van de Riet is also fine and the rest.

The chopper did a deck landing and started rolling of at 21 degrees and caught fire.

Caught 14 Barracudas and was very glad I was NOT at Twickenham 4HP :eek: Only read the sad news re the rugby now :mad:

[4HolerPoler]

Some thought that it might have been caused by sacking or some type of FOD that came off the deck and got into the tail rotor.

Lucky escape.

[flyboy6876]

Dis goed om te sien dat niemand is dood. Ek hoop dat hulle kom gou reg.

En ek kan se dat ek is baie bly dat ek vas nie in Twickenham. 57 - 3 groot skande!!

[Gunship]

4HP - as you said it was FOD - plastic bag in the tail rotor ... I will translate later (after I woke up) ;)

Eerder op Jolly as in see, sê vlie'nier wat val - Beeld
Erika Gibson
" 'n Mens skrik baie groot en die adrenalien vloei in dik strome deur jou are. Al waaraan ek kon dink, was om die helikopter op die skip te laat land, anders het ons in die see geval."

Só het mnr. Eddie Brown, 'n voormalige lugmagvlie'nier wat deesdae vir die National Airways Corporation (NAC) vlieg, Sondag in sy hospitaalbed in Richardsbaai vertel ná 'n noue ontkoming op die Jolly Rubino.

Dié skip het onlangs by St. Lucia gestrand met 'n groot vrag olie aan boord. Herwinningswerk om te keer dat die olie lek, was aan die gang toe die ongeluk Saterdagoggend gebeur het.

Volgens Brown het hy en 'n medevlie'nier, mnr. Martin van de Riet, die afgelope paar oggende die herwinningswerkers met 'n Puma-helikopter na die skip geneem.

Hulle was Saterdag besig om die eerste 4 van 13 van die werkers op die skip te laat sak toe 'n stuk plastiek vermoedelik in die stertrotor van die helikopter beland het.

D't het veroorsaak dat die helikopter begin tol het.

"Dis 'n bestiering dat daar in dié stadium niemand aan die hystoestel gehang het nie, anders sou dit 'n tragiese storie gewees het.

"Die skip lê teen 'n helling van 21grade en ek het vir al wat ek werd was probeer om die helikopter net op 'n manier op die dek te kry.

"Ons het nie geland nie, dit was eerder 'n crash. Toe begin die helikopter teen die helling afgly. Dit was tóé dat die meeste van die bemanning seergekry het.

"Ons het teen die skip se ventilasiepype tot stilstand gekom en die helikopter het intussen aan die brand geslaan. Ons is almal daar uit en met min beserings. Van die helikopter het net 'n hopie as oorgebly."

Brown se enkel is gekraak en die ligamente morsaf.

Sy skouer was uit lit, maar is Saterdag onder narkose reggestel.

Die vlugingenieur, mnr. Les Beetge, en een van die grondbemanningslede, mnr. Dave Peterson, het ligte brandwonde opgedoen terwyl Van de Riet se been 'n bietjie styf is.

"Almal behalwe ek sal waarskynlik vandag (Sondag) ontslaan word. Die swelsel van my voet moet eers sak voor dit in gips gesit kan word."

Volgens Brown, ook 'n "veteraan-ongeluksvo'l" in sy lugmagloopbaan, is vliegoperasies by só skip 'n ho' risiko. "Jy moet heeltyd jou kop bymekaarhou."

Brown, wat meer as 4 000 helikoptervliegure op sy kerfstok het, het sewe jaar gelede met 'n Sikorsky-helikopter naby die Nasionale Oorlogsmuseum in Johannesburg neergestort sonder enige beserings.

Twee jaar later, tydens die weermag se inval in Lesotho, het hy een van die eerste helikopteruitvlugte behartig. Sy Oryx-helikopter is toe deur soldate van Lesotho vol gate geskiet. Hy het tóé ook ongedeerd daarvan afgekom.

Hy het die diens van die lugmag aan die einde van Februarie vanjaar verlaat.

[Pontius' Pilot]

Baie dankie vir die nuus Gunship. Goed om te hoor dat Eddie en sy mede vlienier geen ernstige beseerings opgedoen het nie.

[Gunship]

Sorry the translation took a while ... Gunns was in bed for a day or three .. maybe too much http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/wine.gif after the Twichenham masacre ...

In short :

Eddie Brown decided to crash land on the deck rather than in the sea. They just mention all the injuries but nothing deadly serious. At this stage it is definately a plastic bag that went into the tail rotor.

The injuries came about when the Puma hit the deck and started sliding down - that is where the injuries came from. It ended next to the vent shaft and burned to ashes.

The rest is just the usual personal stuff re Eddie leaving the Airforce in Feb this year and so on.

Any further news by anyone ?

[Gunship]

Good news on my 300th post ... happy birtday Gunnsss ... happy birthday to yourself ... 300 TODAY ! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/party3.gif

GOOD NEWS

Eddie Brown (and the rest) have all been discharged from hospital - recover well Eddie !

[REAL ORCA]

Not sure what his licence has got to do with the accident - Thought it was a bag in the tail rotor.

The only thing smelly here is your suggestion.

No - I am not a chopper pilot !!!!!

[Gunship]

Roundout what u bin smokin mate ... go back to your post office and lick you own stamps - who will send YOU a postcard ?

We are talking about Professional Pilots on this forum not ******5 like you making statements after an accident - fire away on the Jet Blast forum and get your fantasy over ... do we have ANOTHER Guv here ???

And last but not least Eddie was my heli instructor in 1980 (most probably before your first w@nk ...) Eddie used to be a A grade Helicopter AND Fixed Wing instructor 20 odd years ago. As far as I know he got his ALTP with instructor rating in the early nineties ... if you can read Afrikaans in my post you might have seen that he was also a SAAF museum pilot - we only take the best for that job as we only have a few ..

Roundout ... :mad: shutup Gunnsss ... ahhh ok ... take another one Gunssss ... http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/guin.gif
PS: And DO NOT try the REAL ORCA about qualifications Outround ... he most probably forgot most of his qualifications ... my old next - door neigbour for 6 excellent years .. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/cockpit.gif

I seemed to remember Roundout drove me to drink before ....

Here was his comments after the HS 748 crash in George with Hansie Cronje as pax :
Roundout posted 1st September 2002 10:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've recently heard (from a few sources) that Hansie had a PPL and was a regular jumpseater on this route where he was often "allowed to manipulate the controls."

I'm not suggesting that Hansie was driving when the mountain ended up on the missed approach but there's an excellent chance that you'd find his fingerprints on the yoke.



Yeah roundout .. go ahead make your comments after crashes .. strange behavior for an "AVIATOR" as you described yourself in your profile m8

[Gunship]

I never questioned Eddie's experience; I questioned the circumstances surrounding the issue of his licence.

Call the CAA & ask them when the exams were written & when the flight test was conducted. As I remember, for the issue of an ALTP, a considerable number of exams need to be written, normally as a follow on to the successful completion of the exams for the issuance of a Commercial Pilot's licence.

M8 my question ... why do you want to know ? .... Uhmm your move m8. Sorry of to bed .. you made me booze more than my normal bottle ... :eek:

[Gunship]

Roundout .. Eddie's answer for you ... if you are not happy with his qualifications .. his foot is CAT 5 damage but the rest is NOT :mad: He is very happy with his qualifications as a Puma Commander - and so is CAA - go ahead test it, make your day mate.

To the rest of his friends and colluegues (did I get it right?) - he is recovering well and he is taking a six week break and should be in the saddle - early January. :)

[The Claw]

Gunss....almost there, another swig and you would have got it!colleagues

Good to hear that everyone is ok!

Curious about the civvy Puma? How many civvy Puma's are there in SA and who is the operator? Anymore rumours on the old SAAF Puma's? :confused:

[Zulu Sierra]

Just read a few comments about the Puma crash.

Just a word about to those of you defending those involved...

The crew were blameless, and deserve comendation for their flying on the day.

The company does often crew their pumas with newly qualified PPLs . Did in Mocambique during the floods and have done on the Jolly' contract.
Not that this has anything to do with this incident, but the question about proper licensing of crew during their operations is not surprising...

[PPRuNe Towers]

.....and you will notice that Roundout's queries have been neither edited or deleted by us here at the Towers.

We are immensely glad to hear everyone is doing well in terms of recovering from the accident but the question from Roundout is and continues to be entirely valid.

This is a worldwide message board for aviation professionals and there is consistent doubt regarding African licensing issues that ultimately harms the reputations of entirely blameless, well qualified and experienced pilots looking for work worldwide.

We have very good contacts with employers and agencies so before you fire off an angry reply to this please take a moment to consider who has written this and the background we have in giving pilots worldwide a voice, instant communications and consistently useful information. We've spent 7 years building up this board, we're working pilots and we don't stir for the sake of it.

Rob

[Sir Cumference]

I agree with Zulu Sierra, the crew did do a good job under the circumstances. I also agree that given the history of the operation, a question of licencing is not out of line and should be given some merit. Roundout has offered to retract his statement should he be proved wrong. OPerhaps the facts should be supplied.

My other question/observation is this, the machine was recently imported from Japan. The SAAF Pumas had a modification which involved a cross-over vent system (fuel), I think. This was to prevent the helicopter from catching fire during a roll-over situation. Would the Jap machine have had such a mod? If not, did this contribute to the fact that the machine caught fire?

[REAL ORCA]

Maybe we must all wait for the results of the official board of enquiry by CAA. Hopefully it could then be laid to rest.

[The Claw]

I would still be grateful if someone could tell me about what civilian Pumas are in SA and who operates them, or was this the only one?:confused:

[Sir Cumference]

Nac Helicopters Unlimited are the operators of the two ex-J models which were based on the SA Agullas (?). These are on the SA register adn have been used in fire fighting both locally and on contract in Spain. Recently they seem to have purchased another four or five out of Japan and these have been added to the fleet.

[Gunship]

PPRUNE TOWERS :
.....and you will notice that Roundout's queries have been neither edited or deleted by us here at the Towers.

My comments : As you rightfully say above his comments has not been deleted. Well to be honest - I will be highly surprised if you do delete / edit it as I can not see the reason in it. As Roundout says in his Profile : " Stirring the brown stuff - commonly known as sh*t down south - & THE TRUTH. I have known him as a stirrer of the first so far so I gave him the bennefit of the doubt and "listened" to what he says. I hereby also refer back to the HS 748 / Hansie Cronje crash.

This (as you rightfully say Rob) is a Rumour network as well, but I have a bit of a problem if a guy ONLY STIR on the forum and then dissapear - in Afrikaans we call it a "KAKMAKER".... Roudout has this effect on PPRUNE as well as the guys that stirred on the SOLENTA and ROSSAIR threads with less than 5 postings - just to dissapear again. Gunnsss has only ONE alias and it will remain like that ... Gunnsss forever bru ... :D

Ok here is the FULL story about my "investigation" into the incident :

a. Licencing

Roundout (if you care looking here again) :p

Eddie and the crew were FULLY licenced to do the job they have been doing that day. Eddie is a commercial pilot rated on a Civillian Puma (in this case the J - model). Ok roundout - you talk about a ALTP on heli's. It is not necessary as NAC Helicopter operate under the Industrial Aid category - therfore they are NOT normal pax-carrying operators. This task specifically as well as the fire - fighting tasks in Spain and in Yogi ? in SA and the Mozambique floods etc ... all fall under the industrial aid category.
Roundout your move .... :eek:

Zulu Sierra :eek:(2 Posts and from Durban) :eek:

The company does often crew their pumas with newly qualified PPLs . Did in Mocambique during the floods and have done on the Jolly' contract.

You are wrong. The contract in Mozambique specifies a Cmdr and Flight Engineer. So no co=pilots necessary ! But we all know that a sandsak (sandbag) can be worth his weight in gold. So NAC being nice guys they employ newbies to fly as "co-pilots" on the Puma on a PPL and a conversion on the Puma. I think it is great from them. Once again Mozambique fell under "industrial aid".

On the Jolly contract (that ends Saturday) they employ with commercial Cmdr's / co-pilots / flght engineers and hoist operators - all qualified as per contract.

Sir Cumference - does this also answer your questions / observations ?

b. Puma's

The Claw :
Curious about the civvy Puma? How many civvy Puma's are there in SA and who is the operator? Anymore rumours on the old SAAF Puma's?

NAC operates the "old" Puma J model 's that used to go to Antarctica. They also bought 5 from Japan - civillian J - models. The aircraft envolved was a "civvie" J-model from Japan. A lot of Puma's ended up in the USA - a few in the UK and two might be heading our way to the Wild West - will keep you informed ...

Sir Cumference
The SAAF Pumas had a modification which involved a cross-over vent system (fuel), I think. This was to prevent the helicopter from catching fire during a roll-over situation. Would the Jap machine have had such a mod? If not, did this contribute to the fact that the machine caught fire?

Excellent question / observation. I was envolved with the SAAF Puma modification. This was a local mod done by the then Atlas Airc Corp - now Denel / Goverment - whatever.
This mod was never approved by Airospatiale and was purely a home mod / mil mod - but to this day never approved. By the way - I think one of the best mods I have seen. So yes it was a Jap Puma - civvie one and yes - it did [b]not[/b have the conversion done as it is illegal to do the mod.

Any questions ? I stick with FAT ORCA - wait for the BOI - or I am ready for more ... the question is : are you ? :rolleyes:

Have a gr8 day .. off to the beach .. Castle or six, cricket at Newlands, braai tonight and a new 5 Liter Tassies awaits me :D

[Sir Cumference]

Phew, this looks like a soup sandwich! Guns it is admirable that you are defending the guys however I need to qualify some of your statements. To the best of my knowledge, industrial aid is no more. Furthermore, how can you class an operation as industrial aid when you are contracted to an outside agency, Smit Marine, who are paying you for the salvage work?

My understanding of industrial aid was that it was for in-house operations. ie Escom flying their own employees doing Escom work. How Smit Marine personnel could ever be considered NAC helicopters Unlimited personnel is anyone's guess.

Looks to me like a full blown charter operation and therefore the licencing required given the size/weight/passengers should be crewed by an ALTP and qualified co-pilot.

Futhermore is there not a rule in the SACAA which goes along the lines of more than 9 passengers, two crew? I am sure that the interpretation of an engineer as the other crew member is subject to plenty more discussion!

[Gunship]

Roundout and Sir Cumference :

Thanks a lot for your answers. I really appreciate the type of answers / questions raised at is not pure mud-slinging stuff - tx

Yes, I am sure I do defend an old collegue. :o
Yes, I do not know a lot of Civil operations - especially helicopters - especially licencing. :o
Yes, I did quote a senior pilot from NAC to try and clarify things. :o

Roundout you make quite a serious alligation - but as you say - you have substantial evidence - I must admit the way you (and Sir Cum) phrased it - it all makes sence that something can indeed be wrong. It looks like it is a clear thing between the legality of the operations that NAC (h) do - I mean they obviously sign a contract that reads "Industrial Aid" containing a Cmdr and a Engineer, nothing else (right or wrong) and then they do the job. Is CAA envolved ?

Well they read this thread so Trev you wanna come in on this saga or shall we leave it for the BOI ?

I remain with my statement here or before .... old collegues / friends - whoever ... if you break the rules and regulations - you break the law - you are wrong and you must be dealt with accordingly.

Both your comments re SA licencing scares me :eek:

Roundout - will retract ALL my comments - if you are right - and buy you a pint or 6 on my way through the UK ;) Really hope you guys are wrong though. :(

[4HolerPoler]

Guns I think CAAChief etal is a little busy with the small matter of his suspension to devote a lot of time to this topic.

Nonetheless I have every confidence that the matter is being adjudicated and assessed by properly qualified officers who will determine the nature of the accident and all contributing factors.

4HP

[eelphick]

Some helicopter facts to replace the fixed wing assumptions used in the arguments surrounding the crew requirements and qualifications of the pilots involved in the helicopter support given to the Jolly Rubino salvage team.

The J Puma's are fully CAA approved for all Part 127 operations and should not be confused with the restrictions placed on L model Puma's.

Licensing requirements according to ANR's, CAR & Aircraft Flight manual.

ANR 2.26 - Priviliges of Commercial Pilot.

Subsection C.
Holder of a valid CPL shall be permitted to act as PIC in commercial air transport in any aircraft certified for single pilot operations. (CAA approved Puma J flight manual makes provision for single pilot operation by day in VFR conditions and not more than 19 passengers)

ANR 3.8 Type Ratings

This ANR excludes helicopters and ANR 3.9A specifies that type ratings for helicopters are done on the type of helicopter that a rating is sought for and there is no 5700kg type rating applicable.

CARS 127.02.1 - Composition of flight crew. (Refers to 91.03.2)

(1) The minimum number and composition shall not be less than as specified in the helicopters flight manual.

CAA Aproved flight manual 1.1 (3) confirms:-

Aircraft is cleared for single pilot operations in VFR when not more than 19 passengers are carried.

Thus Eddie was properly qualified and he had the required support crew for a Cat A ops (Flight Man requirement) and the aaircraft was certified to do the work.

[BAKELA]

Now this is starting to make sense. Can not belief that a pilot not suitably qualified would operate a machine like a Puma, especially Eddie. Thanks Eelphick.

[tyrant]

Take that sports lovers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gunship]

Thus Eddie was properly qualified and he had the required support crew for a Cat A ops (Flight Man requirement) and the aircraft was certified to do the work.

E Elphick, from your name I can gather who you are .. hope you are well. Shall I say from the horses mouth :D
Thank you very much for the clarification on this whole issue. I pressume the CAA is still busy with their investigation, so let us await the "official" one. Trevor D is / was a regular visitor and I am sure his dept will do a thorough job.

I think I shall crawl back into my hole and, as some of you have suggested, mind my own business.

Roundout mate, we all make mistakes / comments and wish we never said anything - especially on a public forum. Luckilly we have usernames to hide behind :p

From my side appology accepted. Please accept my appology as well for getting red behind the ears and forgetting that this is actually just a "RUMOUR NETWORK".

Please do not crawl away - become a more regular visitor on the Efrikan Forum - who knows you might even end up here?

If someone would let me know what Eddie's favorite tipple is I'll arrange to have a bottle or two dropped off at the office.

Can someone tell me what a TIPPLE is ? In any case you can send two bottles of Scotch to me in the WILD WEST :D Uhmm I like the one called Chifferrs or something ... 20 year old ?

Large ORCA - we are waiting for you appology for upsetting us all :p

[REAL ORCA]

I do indeed appologize for lighting the "fire". Will not play with matches ever again!!!

[Rotorhead]

If I remember correctly E Elphicks three rules for his team run something as follows:

1. If you do not know the rules you cannot play the game - eg don`t arrive in netball kit for a rugby match!

2. If you snooze you lose.

3. If you f!?k around you buy a round.

Worked pretty damn well.

Still confused still determined:D

[Gunship]

Hey Rotorhead ... hit it on the head :D

Remember Polla's Kruger (RIP dear Polla) after take off VA's on the Puma?

Gear up, temps pressure all ok, fags out sandsak ...

do I miss the old days ...

[Rotorhead]

Polla`s kit for a bushtour: 1 bonedome bag with black running (never that they went running anywhere!) shorts and an overall. Borrow the Sandsaks headset and dryf.

Sandsak on first tour " jeez Kmdt you know you drank out the rest of your bottle after we woke you and then two bottles of wine and a couple of beers." Polla, " You must remember I`m getting old hey."

On return to Hoekuspruit sandsak ended up filling in Polla`s logbook last filled in during the rindepest.

My liver and Kidneys shake at he mention of those days - operating on blowjobs now with people that think they can party and have had to stop telling them about people like Polla, Carl (100 club), Ricky eating puke etc as they think you`r bshting.

Take care, don`t go and get stonked next to any rivers now.

[Gunship]

Lo Rotorhead,

I pressume we where at the same squadron in HoekoesSpruit. My neat writing (@ that stage) was immediately taken as a quick fix : Gunns was Polla's logbook writer... I remember once he said to me .. cock, you still need al lot of hours ... so leave my logbook and go and fly ! That was before he was OC (JB West was) and he was still a major and Gunns a junior Loet :D

Check your PM - mail me please.

[Gunship]

Anybody got any idea about Eddie ?

Has he started working yet ?

Cheers and brgds,

Gunnss

[Gainesy]

Bloody Hell that takes me back Guns.

I remember (just) sitting in a small pool very late one night at Ondangwa,with Polla, Crow Stannard, Double-Dave Atkin(son)? and Herman Potgeiter swigging brandy from the bottle and talking complete **** for a couple of hours. My liver took a real pounding on that trip. One week in the bush then a week at Durban/Jbg with Crow and John Orr as my "minders". Bloody Hilarious.
Sad to see Polla is no longer with us though.
Must dig out me log book