Modular Wisdom gained the hard way

[aces low]

Lessons from the modular route: Some personal views on getting commercial licences from someone who is a newish CPL/Multi and FI

It costs more than you think:
I have discovered that despite doing all the background research and building in some contingency funds that the cost of flying training is always more than you expect. As a rough rule of thumb, take the costs that are advertised and then multiply by about another third. E.g a Multi engine CPL typically costs about £5000 but by the time you finish you will probably have paid out about £7000…if you pass first time. The reason for the extra is that you need to include about £1000 for the test and aircraft hire, on top of the course fees plus landing fees (pricey if multi). The other thousand pounds is probably the result of the lack of continuity that arises in the UK due to ****ty weather or aircraft unavailability. Remember the minimum hours requirement is a minimum, and unless you are naturally talented, lucky with the weather and train at a school where there are under-utilised aircraft and instructors you will probably overrun. I know having just written this that some smart arse will say that he did it exactly on the minimum, but believe me they are not the norm…even the gifted can be unlucky with the weather.
Don’t forget to factor in travel fees and possible retakes of tests (££££)
Clive Hughes in his excellent book on getting a commercial pilots licence reckons that you can get a CPL/IR in about a year for £20000. Maybe you can…but you would need to be extremely lucky, hard working and talented. Two out of three would not be enough.

It takes longer than you think:
Ground exams for the ATPL, flying training and getting to the airfield from home all take longer than you would believe. Yes you can do the JAR exams in 6 months…some people even pass them in 6 months. I would allow double that time to pass all the exams. I got all mine first time but it took me about a year. I know some people that have taken 18 months and still have some to pass. It is better (IMHO) to spend a month revising rather than take the exams too soon, fail one and have to wait a month to resit.
As for flying training, my recent CPL and FI courses took four months when on paper they should have taken two. So as a rule of thumb allow double the time for all tests, exams, courses etc.


From the previous two sections it must be apparent that I believe that it is going to be difficult to complete the exams, and CPL training while still holding down a full time job. It is possible and there are people on PPRUNE who can prove this. I just think that you need to make the commitment, borrow the money and go for it…unless you have kids and things which does tend to slow things down a bit. It has taken me two and a half years to go from a PPL to professional licences. If I had been single without kids, I could probably have done it sooner and cheaper.

Hour Building is a recipe for disaster:
How many time have we seen on PPRUNE the postings about going to the USA for a hundred hours P1 in a month? Hour building is just a great opportunity to polish your bad habits. When you come to do your CPL, you will have to undo all these bad habits, which will end up costing you more in the long run. My recommendation is to start your study for the ATPL and build hours slowly in a structured way. Don’t forget the study is the rate determining step…not the hour building. Try flying with an instructor every now and then (claiming P1 for yourself) to keep your flying from going down the toilet. Some junior instructors would do it for free or at a nominal cost.

Choosing a Flying School
So much has been written on how to chose a school…and no perfect school exists for all people. However, I would recommend that you do not believe the hype and look for the hidden costs…getting a written quotation for any training. Some unscrupulous schools will make you pay for unnecessary approach plates, for instance.

Talking to students in the crew room will pay dividends.
It is only after you have finished your training that you will recognise whether you made the right choice. The first time pass rate is not a valid indicator of value for money…cheap schools that use the CAAFU test as the most expensive flying lesson in history, nor expensive ones that will train you for a first time pass after exceeding the minimums by 100%. (yes they do exist).

Ranting above is not designed to put off wannabes wanting to do a modular route (after all it was right for me)…just remember the following:
· Pay by credit card try and get a career development loan.
· Budget your time and money sensibly (i.e. no rose tinted specs)
· Talk to students and graduates of schools before commiting to a school
· Structure your hour building…don’t burn hole sin the sky
· Remember that the biggest cost in flying is the loss of income you will incur if you fail to manage your time properly
· Make a commitment and go for it…else get out and keep your money safe and mouth shut

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Aces Low. Thanks for that. One of the best posts I have read in a long time. All very very true.

I myself was lucky and managed to go Modular and pay under £17,000 using various RAF sponsorships and ATC flying. I have witnessed many people start on the pilot route with barely a fiver or a week in reserve. You wouldn't take off with that little reserve and the same degree of redundancy need to be built into your plans.

Clive Hughes £20,000 estimate is no longer valid post JAA as he freely admits. By my reckoning it now requires £32,000 as a bare minimum to go modular. A realistic budget is actually £37,000 as I tell people all the time.

Its very different sitting down and doing the sums than it is standing in WHSmith reading the back pages of Flyer/Pilot...

Good luck one and all,

WWW

[George T]

Glass half empty or what??? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Glass appears to be at 50% capacity and passing on those details to people thinking of odering a pint. Perhaps?

We've both been there and done it. You?

WWW

[Fried]

EAK, £37,000 is alot

been a member of this board for 10 mins and nearly had a heart attack <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

thanx tho, was a very interesting and informative post

Dave

[MorningGlory]

Aces Low/WWW,

You're absolutely right. I listened to other people before starting my ATPL who said 'you need to tot it all up and add 20%'

So far I've been lucky, my training has gone very well, on time and have passed everything thrown at me so far.

However, like you say, my training so far(ppl,imc,night,multi 100hrs structured hour building 150tt, full time ATPL groundschool, all the ground exams, flight test fees, accomodation, beer money, car etc etc etc) on paper should have cost around the £20K mark. It has actually cost a tad over £30K (maybe I drink too much Guinness!)so there's an extra 50%! If you add loss of income during those 12 months, it's looking at around £60K.

Now if you said that to me 12 months ago I probably would have lost my class 1 with an instant cardiac, and would have saved all that cash, however it's been great so far, and I don't regret a thing!

Here's looking forward to 2002, a part time CPL (while working, desperate for the cash, and lets face it, what's the rush?), and an IR/MCC to top it all off next year!

Bonnet de douch! :)

[ 03 January 2002: Message edited by: MorningGlory ]</p>

[mjkukin2]

allright "ACES LOW"where you from in manchester. what can i say marvellous piece of writing...BRAVO thats been the next most positive thing and hard facts i have heard since reading clive james how too become a pilot. i am at uni in manchester at UMIST studying chem eng but thinkin of finnishing it off to embark on my lifetime ambition i have saved all my pennies and am goin all the way now full JAA ATPL status would greatly apprecaite meeting up with you sometime if you are from around manchester

[JT8]

Having been doing a lot of research into the modular route, I have to say aces low has made some very valid points.

I have worked out the cost of a modular route which includes some structured hour building whilst doing my ATPL's in the UK, and extra multi hours when stateside. Adding on CPL/IR and a good MCC course plus 20% works out around £41k. Thats not including accomodation and living expenses <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> (..and I already have a PPL)
Cabairs integrated course costs £47k....jeez for £51k I can live in sunny spain for a year all inclusive... <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

You can do the modular route cheaper, but personally I feel taking early shortcuts just means more cost at the end through extra training and re-sitting exams - especially flight tests.

The point is if you are doing a course full time , the total cost saving between integrated and modular is not as great as initially expected.

Good luck peeps,
JT8

[aces low]

actuals so far
IMC 1600
PPL 3000
Hours 7500
exams 3000
medicals 500
CPL 7115
FI 5460
IR 0
28175

By the time I have dome an IR, the total will be £40k plus the loss of income over two years. So I agree, there is not much difference between modular and integarted on pricing alone. However, I must stress that the modular route is fun, you meet some great people with lots of life experience...and you dont have to leave the family to live in a bedsit in Oxford, Cranfield etc. Don't make any decision in flying on finacial reasons alone. At best it will cost you more in the long run, at worst it will kill you.

[foghorn]

I'm one of the smart arses who did both my CPL and IR on minimum training.

However I partialled my CPL skills test on an unlucky cockup, but passed the retest with no additional training (chuh a mere £600 extra then!)

Despite this I also completely agree with what Aces Low has to say here. It fairly represents my experience of modular training.

At the risk of repeating what he has said, his point...

[quote]
Clive Hughes in his excellent book on getting a commercial pilots licence reckons that you can get a CPL/IR in about a year for £20000. Maybe you can…but you would need to be extremely lucky, hard working and talented. Two out of three would not be enough.
<hr></blockquote>

...sums it all up nicely. You can also substitute 'Clive Hughes in his excellent book' for 'those schools offering ab initio modular training at around £30,000' for exactly the same reasons.

Cheers!
foggy. (who was merely fairly lucky, hard working and moderately talented, and got his modular fATPL for £45,000)

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: foghorn ]</p>

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I've seen it done by someone talented and lucky for slightly less than £37,000.

When you consider BAE in Jerez WAS £44,000 in 2000 and you got a years holiday in Andalucia that has to have been the best deal on the planet.

Sadly the price is now much closer to £50,000.

WWW

[Capt L]

I'm doing an Australian CPL (almost there) and just just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth with regard to Hour Building!! I know the system is a lot different over here, but aeroplanes don't know where they are flying!!

I got my PPL in August 2000, and since then I've been flying to build up my hours before I started my CPL. I've heard it said many times that a PPL is a licence to learn, so use it!!!! You shouldn't look on hour building as a chore where you have to get as many hours as possible in as short a time as possible. Use it to challenge yourself, and most importantly maintain your standards.

I've done all sorts of flying, from a half hour hops to nearby holiday island, well known locally for its challenging crosswinds, to a round Australia trip. From international airports to station strips in the middle of nowhere. Learn something from every flight, and at the same time have fun!!!

I guess all I'm trying to say is you will only develop bad habits hour building if you allow yourself too!! And above all have a fantastic time, coz isn't the reason that we put ourselves through this pain and poverty because we want to get paid to do some thing we love!!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: Capt L ]</p>

[EGCC4284]

My pint is a triple Pernod, filled to the top with lemonade, and a drop of blackcurrant.

[George T]

in reply to www I’m doing it!

The difference is I’m not counting the cost every day. It’s pointless and only a reason for complaint.
I’ve seen people do all sorts of cost calculations. People even include living costs beer and food! Why? If they weren’t training would they stop drinking and eating or even living? I don’t think so. Just get on with it and stop complaining.

Next people will start complaining there are no pilot jobs out there.
<img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[mickey mouse]

Aces Low, thanx for the info! Defiantely helpful, I've been looking into my course of study and recon that it will cost £35000ish without travel costs and budget for the odd delays here and there that may come up.

Im looking at doing my ATPL ground exmas with London Guildhall and then the flying training with Stapleford, in a structured way. Doing the training up to Cpl level and then doing Istrument Rating etc to get full ATPL I'm not sure on what the average time is that you need however to do the ground exams? Have asked my dad who is a commercial pilot but he's not sure what the norm. is now as he did his in '82 roughly. Also do u know if you have to pass the first 7 exams straight off in oder to do the next module?

Any help from anyone would be greatyl appreciated.
:) :) :)

[aces low]

Topgun...I am not sure of the rules regarding atpl modules, but I have had friends who have failed a couple of exams and then started the second module. the idea is that they then did all the failed papers together in a third sitting.

If you can borrow £35000..can you get the extra to do integrated training (groundschool and flight training at a single provider).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

George T - well done that man.

Personally I DID keep a diary listing every expense involved in gaining my licences. I included food and drink whilst away from the parental home on courses as me dear old Mum wasn't in the habit of charging me £4.50 for my dinner...

I was suprised by the high proportion of my total expenditure that went on non flying training in the end. Something a little over 10% went on petrol, accomodation, phone calls, stationary, clothing, food and drink. Just as an example, take postage. Going modular meant that I had to send off my licence and logbooks to the CAA twice. Each time it needs a £3 jiffy bag and £13 in registered delivery charges. When getting quotes from schools and B&B's I sent off over 40 letters and then when I was sending out CV's when I had a BCPL I sent out another 100 letters. In the end it seems I easily spent about £70 on postage to get to the point where I had a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL in my hand. I am not including CV's to airlines in this figure because that is a post training cost.

Now in my initial budget which I still have around there was no column for Postage:£70

It all mounts up and people would be well advised to plan for that. I have had students for both PPL and CPL IR training who have completed 80% of the course and then run out of money. They go away for a while and comeback with some more cash. Unfortunately they have regressed in their abilities die to lack of continuity and they now require more money than they have come back with to get them up to a Pass standard. And then you are into a vicious circle whereby their training takes them twice as long as someone elses and costs them twice as much. All for the sake of an unrealistic initial budget...

Good luck,

WWW

[feetnkneestogether]

Dear Chaps,

When bandying around figures such as £37,000 etc it will indeed seem like an outrageous amount of cash and will no doubt frighten a lot of wannabes. (Yes you're right it is a frightening amount!!!)
However, don't forget that going the modular route implies that it will be spent over a period of years. Think about your net income per year (that's after tax) and then multiply that by say 3 years. Now with a reasonable salary (£20k+ pa ???) that actually comes to quite a lot of money.
Obviously you will not live on fresh air so all living costs will have to come out of that but don't forget you can plan Birthday & Christmas presents to provide books/odd flights, you may get Air League Bursaries / Scholarships, your pay will rise, and you may take out a Career development loan.

I did the whole lot from 1 hour wannabe to CPL/IR in 2.5 years, and no I wasn't a whizz in the cockpit and yes I had to retake some of the navs etc.
I planned holidays and expenditure a long way in advance.
It's all possible just needs a little planning and forethought.

Bon chance.

:)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Presumably you were a grown man with a career? Many Wannabes are not. Not that I am decrying what you say, its a very relevant observation.

WWW

[Snigs]

Aces, what a great post! :)

I would suggest that any serious modular wannabe take Aces initial post very seriously. I have taken a very similar route to Aces and our paths have even crossed (how're you doing mate!?), and I completely reiterate the sentiments.

I have spent about £20k (approximately, because I'd cry if I worked it out exactly) PPL (150hrs) to CPL/IR (fATPL) so here is someone else who is saying it costs buckets!!

I can only reaffirm the other comments here, make the hour building from fresh PPL to 150 hours worth it! I flew throughout Europe and I learnt a lot from flying to International Airports and similarly small local airports with their own noise abatement rules etc.

Don't under estimate the British Wx for the CPL Skills test, and don't underestimate the cost of the IR, unless you've got a lot of VFR hours on a twin (50+) then the minimum for the IRT is out of your grasp, because you need to feel at home with the twin before you can "Ace" the IRT

All in all, this thread may be a candidate for the archives, whaddya think WWW?

&lt;Edited because I'm a twit!! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> )&gt;

[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: Snigs ]</p>

[Mister Gash]

Very useful thread.

I’ve just decided to take the leap myself and here are the (rounded-up) figures I’ve come up with for the modular route I’m planning to take. I’m a 200-hour PPL.

£1,900 Distance learning ATPL theory course (Bristol)
£1,100 Exam fees etc.
£8,000 CPL/ME (Based on Cabair minimum, inc. VAT and test fee)
£13,000 IR (as above)
£9,000 40% idiot factor.
£500 Medical
_______________
£33,500 TOTAL

As I’m not based in the UK at the moment, there’ll be large travelling and accommodation fees, for which I’m prepared.

Are these realistic figures? I’d appreciate any feedback.

Gash

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Your figures look about right. I would add a mandatory £1200 for an IR fail/re-take (it takes the pressure off the day if you know you can at least afford to come back tomorrow).

Good luck,

WWW

[spitfire747]

Mister Gash

How much will you budget for living expenses ?

[RVR800]

This is a good thread

In my opinion the areas of understatement lie
in the following:

The loss of income associated with quitting
ones job and not being paid is not factored
into the headline figures for pilot training

The average gross wage in the UK is £25K
and if you substitute this for a full time position as an FI its replaced by a salary
of £10K so youre still losing at the end of training

The TOTAL loss of income until one recovers to the wage level of £25K can be considerable and greater than the cost of training !!!!!!

One thing is for sure nobody goes into this
game self sponsored without suffering big
time financially.

JAR has had the effect of increasing cost by
increasing difficulty cost and time. In the old
days people used to build time as a PPL/FI
do the exams part time and then the flight
tests when and if appropriate.. Now they do the business and find themselves in a euro market flooded with type rated Belgians

[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: RVR800 ]</p>

[Speedbird59]

Firstly I must say this one of the best threads I've read on Pprune in a long time.

I'm just at the point where I will be doing some hour building as I have nearly finished my PPL. Does any one have any advice as to how to maintain good habits/prevent bad ones?

The reason I ask is that many people posting warn about developing bad habits but could anyone pass on any tips as to what and what-not to do when building hours.

[RVR800]

Fly test profiles for the flight tests you
want to pass ultimately use the CAA SRG site
for detail.

Set standards for yourself. Get a back seat on an instructional flight for CPL or IR to give yourself a target to aim for in your own flying.

If your building time do night / multi / IFR
where poss

Genete scenarios where your workload is high
and be critical of yor performance

Hope this helps

DONT FLY ROUND ORANGE GROVES IN FLORIDA
LOOKING AT YOUR WATCH

[Mister Gash]

WWW:- I’ll add that to my estimates. Thanks.

Spitfire747:- At the moment I’m budgeting for £500 per week while staying in the UK for the two-week study sessions, exams and the actual flying training...so there goes another few grand out the window <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Capt BK]

Superb post! Thanks for all the advice - it is heard!

I finished my PPL last year and am looking at going through the modular route over the next two years. I've done most of the calc's and come to similar figures as everyone else, i dread to think of what else I could spend that kind of money on but I know that this is what I want and i'm gonna go for it.

That in it's self is why I joined Pprune. Sure there are regular negative comments on the forums but generally must of us see the mountain, pull up our socks and start climbing! In my current job I hear excuses all the time, I never made it this far because..., This thingy was always standing in my way.. etc. We ARE gonna make it 'cos virtually everyone here has the drive to succeed.

Chin up, it's costing us a lot of money to do this but as someone once said on a previous post "One day someone will actually pay us to do this" (Not sure who it was).

Cheers for the support!

CBK

[aces low]

Regarding the structured hour building. In my own experience, and not disagreed with by colleagues and commercial instructors, the hour building towards your CPL needs to be more about honing the fundamental skills, rather than developing new skills. For instance, by the time I came to do my CPL, my attitude flying was crappy, lookout even worse. As for holding height in a circuit…any thing could be happening, and often was. Much of the CPL training is not teaching you anything new, but just the same old things to a higher professional standard in a higher performance aircraft.

Having now done an FI course (where my flying has improved no end) I can now see that a lot of my inadequacies during my CPL were due to the inability to trim an aircraft ‘using the correct technique’. Earlier on in this thread I mentioned the opportunity to polish your bad habits during hour building…and that is exactly what I did. As a result my CPL training went over the minimums (as mentioned earlier) as I struggled to correctly trim a Duchess at £250 per hour…much better to learn the correct technique to do this in a C150 at £60 per hour when you are hour building.

My recommendation for hour building would be to fly with an instructor occasionally to ensure that you are using the correct technique. in particular:

· Trimming the aircraft correctly – if it is not then everything else will go to **** as soon as you look at your map, turn, talk or whatever.
· Lookout…you are probably not doing enough
· Get the radio right…if you don’t adequately it can really increase the workload
· Fly a height and stick to it (downdraughts excepted)
· Polished circuits (not’ that’ll do) leading to Stabilised Approaches, leading to good landings
· Fly by numbers/procedures not seat of pants (debatable I know for PPLs but essential for commercial training)
· Get used to controlled airspace, ATIS, ground/tower/approach frequency operation, complex fields etc
· Fly to a plan…don’t bumble around. Fly a height and a heading, use a stopwatch

All said and done, I found the CPL to be nothing that I hadn’t covered on my PPL (except multi training). So you can waste your time notching up the numbers or really prepare yourself for a first time pass. The secret? Correct technique and practice.

Do you know if you are using the correct technique?
<img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[SuperTed]

aces low,

I'm interested, how come you flew a Duchess twin rather than a complex single during your CPL training?

I was under the impression that all CPL training is usually done on a PA28 and then a complex like an Arrow? A twin is then only used for the IRT. Is this not the case?

[aces low]

If you do a combined multi/CPL you save money straight away, plus you then have 10 hours multi time before you start the IR. Helps get off to a flying start. A lot of schools couldn't be bothered getting a complex single for the few students doing a single engined CPL, so they can be reasonably competitive on the twin prices. For instance, I did my Multi CPL at Leeds FLying School at LBA. Instead of 15 hours single and 8 hours multi, I only did 11 on the single and got a competitive rate for multi-time for the remaining hours. I now have 16 hours multi time. The CPL test doesn't seem to be any harder for although you do single engine procedures (asymetric approach etc) you miss out forced landings. So swings and roundabouts.Most twins use an airswitch for recording times (i.e. what you are cahrged) but you log taxi time also...which is important at a busy field like Leeeds where they seem to dislike having GA aircraft on the runway or on approach. (Only kidding LBA ATCOs)

My advice would be to talk to a GOOD school and get their price for a multi CPL vs a single engined one.