FL150 50nm before MID

[Harry G]

Afternoon Gents, I fly the RJ100 out of Gatwick.

Everytime we fly south to LGW, on the WILLO2B, our instructed descent profile is descend FL200 75nm before MID, and then descend FL150 50 before MID.

Which we do, no worries, but we do end up flying level, at FL150, almost all the way to MID.

Just wondering why we can't stay higher for longer, eg. FL200.

No doubt it's to do with LHR and other airfields, SID's STAR's etc.

Just wondering exactly how it all fits together...

[Expeditedescent]

Hi,

It's all to do with which level is free in the CPT area.

FL190: BB/BE/NX deps
FL180: LOREL1S arrivals
FL170: GD/VN/DL deps
FL160: SS CPT deps

FL140: OCK arrivals via G1
FL130: LL CPT deps

FL110: HH/HI/LF inbounds from North
FL100: HH/HI/LF deps to North

So its really a case of find a gap and fit into it.........Not ideal, we know..........but safe !

Cheers

[Harry G]

Thanks for reply ExD.

It amazes me how you guys & girls handle it all.

You do a great job, cheers, G.

[Vlad the Impaler]

Don't forget FL120 HH/HI/LF inbounds from the West !!!
Also it would make life difficult for TC SW if you fell through our ceiling (FL155 or FL175 depending on where) in the middle of the sector screaming for descent into HOLLY. KK inbounds from the north are transferred to TC SW from MIDLANDS sector descending to FL150 way before our sector boundary but we cannot descend them without back co-ordination hence the long stay at FL150 even if there isn't much else going on. It ain't perfect but it works !!!!!!!!!!

[5milesbaby]

To add to Vlad's bit, on top of the TMA (above FL155/FL175 depending on area) is TC Capital, working just 4 levels mainly upto FL210. FL180 and FL190 are used for Stansted/Luton arrivals inbound to OCK from the South or West. Trying to get descent inbetween these tracks is near impossible, so it would have to be FL200 until 10 AFTER MID, at which point you will be in the Seaford (S18) sector at LACC, and no straight ins possible if on r/w08.

At the moment you stay at FL150 for so long, as the LL ins from Hurn come down to FL130 at Hazel on track OCK, and for KK its FL130 by GWC as you probably know, so its all about finding that gap to drop thro, and the lower you are, the less gaps we need to find ;)

[Bright-Ling]

Harry G....

Thanks for yr kind coments.

This is just the sort of thing we used to be able to sort out when we had our annual Familiarisation (Jumpseat) trips.

We were told it had stopped because the airlines no longer wanted to take part in the scheme due to security risks.

Maybe you and other airline crews could badger yr management so that the worthwhile scheme is re-introduced!

Ta!

[slink]

As far as I am aware (BA) have tightened up on jump seat rides, yes, but the exclusion list that was distibuted to staff did NOT include ATCOs. How this works in the real world, I don't know - and as I have my NATS interview in 3 weeks, with any luck I shan't find out, from the BA side, anyway!
I suggest badgering your previous contacts, and quote examples like the one in this thread. It costs little as an airline, and if the value you get as a controller is anything close to the value we get, as airline staff, visiting your place of work, then it MUST be worth it!
However, since the airlines (CAA?) banned flight crew families from the jump seat, we've all had a hard time getting up there, behind the locked door...

[30W]

Bright-Ling,

Over the last few years I've arranged and carried ATCO's on the jumpseat for fam flights. I strongly beleive it's a good exercise for both parties.

Since 9/11 the DfT (formerly DETR) and CAA revised the UK flight deck access rules. The airlines had to fall in line with the new policy, like it or not.

My current understanding is that you can be carried on the flight deck on a formally arranged Fam Flt as long as it does not enter US airspace. Under FAA rules imposed to all carriers (was always so for US carriers anyhow), ATCO's are NOT allowed access to the flight deck. So those of you who enjoyed Virgin/BA jollies etc States side, under FAA order it can't any longer happen :mad:

As for the rest, it is now a lengthy admin process, that makes the scheme far more cumbersome than ever. Before I was able to arrange fams directly for ATCO's, following management approval and of course the operating Capt's if I was sending them with someone other than myself. Indeed I could even issue the ticket from my own Capt's stock, making the whole process relatively straight forward. That's all stopped, and red tape galore and the need for several dept's to become involved exist.

As slink pointed out, our own wives etc are now considered too much of a risk!! There are those that under such circumstances have the thought process of, "well if my wife can't travel, then neither can anyone!". Whilst I don't fall into that category, I understand those that do, it's a 'fight' against the 'system'. It's not too different to those ATCO's that won't do a Fam because management won't let them do it in work time. Again I unnderstand where the sentiment comes from.........

I hope this sheds some light on the subject, albeit a sadly fading one........ If you want a fam, I'll take you, but be warned I'm not LL or KK based, although that's not stopped plenty of TC, and en-route folk coming with me over the time.

Best regards
30W

[Bright-Ling]

OOOooops......sorry to steal the thread..!

Slink and 30W....thanks for your replies, much appreciated.

The fam flight list was pretty much all Europe as we had to get back the same day to avoid NATS forking out for a hotel (Cyprus and Rekyavik were the only two where you HAD (!!!) to nightstop).

NATS official line is that it has stopped. The Fam Flight Office at our College of ATC in Bournemouth no longer accepts bids.

Going througha more unorthadox approach is cumbersome but an avenue I and others would surely follow.

Maybe its a money thing for NATS (paying our parking costs at LHR/LGW etc) but the majority of NATS ATCO's either work at an airfield or if not could park for free there if arranged with a local unit.

OH well, another demise in the cockpit/ATC liasion - such as the Assisted flying scheme which has been unilaterally closed.

B-L

(30W I would travel for a fam flight on my days off if one was free)

[30W]

Bright-Ling,

Yea, really it's worth a thread all of it's own.......

Anyhow, feel free to contact me by private e-mail if you want to try and arrange something.

Cheers
30W

[Bright-Ling]

30W - sent you a message via here.

[FlapsOne]

To simplify R/T why don't we give these points some names?

Maybe swop names with some of the less used ones if we are running out of 5 letter options.

[FlapsOne]

In fact, to go along with DELBO and RODNI how about:

ALBUT, DENZL, BOYSI, TRIGA, RAKEL and, no doubt, many more.

[Slippers]

I'm sure BOYSI already exists, I think it's somewhere in the Stansted area