Microlight Rating

[Pogs]

I'm confused by the rules & regulations at the best of times but I find myself in a most bizzare set of circumstances! Enough of that - back to the topic!

Situation

I've held a (CAA) PPL SE since 1990. Because of family additions I can't afford to send £110 per hour of C-152 hire so I bought a share in a "microlight" - 430kg Jabiru to be honest. Looks similar to 152, smells like 152 and perhaps even tastes like a 152 but it isn't! I now need to get Microlight rating on my licence.

Problem

CAA apparently gave instructions to BMAA that microlight ratings can only be added to NPPL. To get the NPPL I need to jump through a few hoops and then pay £131. I know how to have a good time.

The daft thing is that I can get into a 450kg Jabiru and happily fly all day but I can't fly a 430kg Jab unless I cough up £131.

Am I going mad? If an analogy with cars were made - I would be allowed to drive a Ford Escort 1.6 but not a Ford Escort 1.4!

If somebody from FCL would like to comment I would be most interested. Any ideas????

[Fly Stimulator]

Pogs,

I think you're stuck with having to buy an NPPL to put the microlight rating on. At least you don't have to do any particular number of hours of training or any more exams - an oral test on microlight-related stuff prior to the skills test is all you'll have to do.

It's a nuisance, but at the cost of about an hour-and-a-half in a 152 it's probably not a show stopper I suppose.

Going the other way is much more expensive. Upgrading my NPPL SEP gained with microlight hours to a JAR PPL means paying for 35 hours of training; all to fly exactly the same aircraft as I already do, but without having to turn back mid-Channel!

By the way, is it Redhill you'll be flying the Jabiru from?

[FormationFlyer]

Someone is tellig porkies....You do NOT have to have an NPPL issued to hold a microlight rating. It can be added to a JAR PPL or UK PPL just as easily.

I hold a UK CPL and have both Microlight & Microlight AFI ratings issued on it....

Cost of additional rating is £65.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Actually FF, they aren't. I've got a JAR license with a microlight rating added too, but...

It seems that those super blokes in CAA personel licensing decided a month or two ago to decide without consultation with anybody to stop doing this and insist on new NPPLs being issued, along with the required fees. This is mind you the same people who used to decide that 1000+ hr microlight pilots could only have 10 hours off the requirements for a PPL(A), which made just about as much sense, and was done with as much consultation.

Their latest I understand is that they're also trying to stop PPL holders obtain microlight instructors ratings, which since there isn't a CPL(Microlights) would apparently prevent almost anybody ever becoming a microlight instructor.

A little bird tells me that all this was decided unilaterally, recently, and without even telling the BMAA who are understandably hopping mad about it.

G

[FormationFlyer]

:mad: Well ****** me! No way! Is it that David Conduit in PLD Policy & standards that did this one?!?

More ridiculous regulation then....to be honest I am not sure how they can even level this one... its just stupid!

So what do they think a microlight instructor should hold? The regs only ever called for a PPL.

Well I stand corrected - but I am now outraged !

Cheers for the info - any idea where the 'official' word is written though - because my understanding would be that this would be a change to the ANO (schedules)...

FF

[Whirlybird]

Mad? Ridiculous? Or a fiendishly clever plot to raise lots of dosh, get rid of JAR anomalies and hassles, and in the long run be hailed as the person who made UK GA logical?

Let's have a look in Whirly's Crystal Ball, at a CAA conversation:

Mr Doom: What are we going to do? JAR was a mistake, no-one likes the NPPL, they won't do it in 32 hours anyway, everyone's giving up flying because of the costs so we don't get any money...it's a mess.

Mr Fiend: Don't worry; I have a fiendish plan.

Mr Doom: Tell me more.

Mr Fiend: We make sure that everyone ends up with an NPPL, whether they like it or not. We'll start off with these microlight bods; not enough of them to cause much hassle. We'll get some of the older and poorer guys in on it anyway, because it'll save them money on medicals. Then we'll add an IMC and a night rating and a go-overseas rating, and say the JAR licence can't include an IMC because it's only British, thus making the NPPL more attractive to everyone. Then we'll up the minimum number of hours to make it realistic. Then, since no-one will bother getting a JAR licence anyway unless they plan to go commercial since it'll be uneconomic, we'll get rid of that altogether, or make it an add-on to the NPPL as part of the CPL/ATPL. We'll incorporate helicopters in eventually, and gliders too - why not; more dosh for us. Eventually, it'll all be completely logical and under one umbrella, and everyone will forget that we did it to raise lots of money, and I'll be hailed as The Greatest.

Mr Doom: Oh Mr Fiend, you're so clever. But I foresee one problem. When it's all logical and sensible and saving pilots money, what then? How do we get more cash then.

Mr Fiend: Ah, I'll tell you about that one in a minute...

Crystal ball fades.....

[LowNSlow]

Whirly that sounds scarily accurate :eek:

So, if I want a microlight rating I have to get an NPPL to attach it to.

Does this NPPL then supercede my CAA PPL?

Does it mean that I can't fly to the continent in a microlight?

[Pogs]

Flight Stim - You could be right!

I'm still very confused as to the logical of allowing me to fly a 450 kg yet not the 430kg!

I've been told that as well as have to pay £131 I've also got to have a GFT. This whole business is stupid

Does anybody know who I (we!) should be writing to? Whirly - I can only agree with your point of view. It could appear to be two fold attack!

1). Get as much revenue as possible

2). Reduce number of JAA PPL's (are there any out there?)

3). Old CAA PPL to "convert" to NPPL

OK so I can't count

This really is a load of rubbish!

[QDMQDMQDM]

What a gem. The CAA bureaucrats are even making the NHS bureaucrats look good.

Now that's scary.

QDM

[Genghis the Engineer]

Its not very clever is it.

The reason for 430kg .v. 450kg incidentally is that the 430kg one has a smaller wing and thus a higher stalling speed - which is why that is a light aircraft and 450kg is a microlight. I suppose one needs a line somewhere, but it does seem a bit absurd when dealing with Jabirus and Shadows.

Personally I'd complain to my MP, it is a government QUANGO after all. But, you could also try

Ron Elder
Head of Personnel Licensing
Safety Regulation Group
Civil Aviation Authority
Aviation House
Gatwick Airport South
West Sussex
RH6 0YR


Sat in a meeting with two CAA officials today, one was criticising me for applying excessive professional rigour, the other for not applying enough. All things considered, I'm getting fed up of the bloody organisation. In the meantime, my main concern was their taking 5 months to answer a technical query.

G

[bingoboy]

CAA ppl, JAR ppl, ???nppl, EASA what I don't know but I feel sure there'll be more changes before/if sense returns.

Does Brian Rix have something to do with this ?

What was wrong with single engine a/c not exceeding 5700kg?

The training industry must love all this regulation and confusion. Mind you if this continues I fear for the future of GA.


One final point (whinge/comment) - Will future glider instructors need an ATPL with type endorsements ?

[Whirlybird]

What about the poor students, especially those who don't read PPRuNe. After all, you expect to be able to go into a school, ask a simple question, and get a sensible answer that you can understand, don't you? Let's have another look in Whirly's Crystal Ball:

Bloggs (newly arrived at flying school): I'm thinking of learning to fly.

Instructor: Fine, I can tell you about that.

Bloggs: A friend has one of these microlight thingies, so I was thinking about that. But I also think I might one day want to become an airline pilot. So what would be the best thing to do?

Instructor: Well, it's quite simple really. You do a JAR PPL, because that means you can then do an ATPL. Then if you want to fly microlights you just do a conversion, but you can't add that conversion to your newly acquired PPL, for that you need an NPPL, which takes less time so you could do it in the first place, but if you did you wouldn't be able to get a commercial licence without upgrading it, and no-one knows how you do that yet, and it's easy enough to get an NPPL once you've got a JAR PPL, but it'll cost you an extra £131 and you'll have to do another GFT. Easy isn't it?

Bloggs (totally confused): Er...well, suppose I just get a PPL, buy something cheap to fly, and think about the rest later?

Instructor: That's a good idea, first things first and all that. But if you're thinking of buying something, make sure it weighs more than 450kg, because if it's less it's a microlight even if it looks like a light aircraft and flies like one, and you're back where you started.

Bloggs: Er...maybe I'll take up tiddlywinks.

[FormationFlyer]

On the point of flying microlights overseas - there are no privileges to let you do this per se.

France has issued a blanket permission, to fly a microlight in other states you must seek their express permission before hand.

This has always been the case.

Hope this helps,
FF

[slim_slag]

A few years ago I looked into buying a share in a Jabiru at a club in the UK so I could potter around when I am back home. I only have one of those nasty FAA 'back of the cornflake packet' certificates, but the CAA does graciously let me fly a C152 in UK airspace. I thought a microlight should be no problem, but I was shocked to find out the CAA considers Jabirus are out of my league :D.

Fair enough I thought (or not). I'll just get some dual, get signed off by an instructor and fly without passengers on a student solo type of ticket. Apparently that is not allowed either. Something to do with not being allowed to rent a microlight, to fly solo you have to be an owner, have a licence or be studying for a licence. As I already have a FAA licence (although it does not allow me to fly a microlight), the CAA says I can not claim to be studying for a microlight licence, and so CAA regs do not permit me to be a microlight student.

This is what the club told me, they advised me to contact the CAA, a thoroughly frustrating exercise, and I gave up.

So I put away my cheque book, and took my money which I would have loved to have spent in UK aviation to another country where regulations appear to be more sensible.

[BEagle]

From the www.nppl.uk.com NPPL website (FAQs):

Q: What do I need to do to fly microlights on my 'Group A' licence?

A: If you have flown microlights on your CAA issued 'Group A' licence since January 1999 and have remained current by obtaining a certificate of experience every 13 months then you can have a microlight rating added to your licence without any additional testing or training under "grandfather" rights . If you have never flown microlights on your 'Group A' licence but wish to start, then you will need to undertake type conversion training leading to a GFT, which you must pass together with the Microlight Ground Oral exam, before applying for the addition of a microlight rating to your 'Group A' licence.

If you have a JAR FCL PPL, then you will need to undertake type conversion training leading to a GFT, which you must pass together with the Microlight Ground Oral exam, before applying for the addition of a microlight rating to your JAR FCL PPL.

All applications for the addition of a microlight rating should be made to the BMAA on NPPL Form 102M, available for download on this website, accompanied by a cheque for £64 made payable to the CAA or alternatively the payment details must be completed on the NPPL Form 102 if payment by credit/debit card is preferred.

[Whirlybird]

BEagle,

OK, this is what I understood from the BMAA, when I started my flexwing conversion a few months back. BUT, is this what's now changed, according to Genghis et all, so that you have to get a fully fledged NPPL at a cost of £131? Or have they got it wrong? Or has the CAA's website not been updated. Or is absolutely everyone confused? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Hmmm.. I think sticking to helicopters might even be cheaper in the long run, certainly easier.

[solent01]

Yes its true the CAA have messed it up again, following is a statement from the BMAA's head honcho Chris Finnigan:-

The CAA have recently stated that they will no longer add a rating to an old UK PPL (A) or PPL (M). There is currently no route for someone holding a NPPL with microlight or any other rating to become an instructor, although this was a "deferred item" from the 15 NPPL Steering Group meetings it took to launch the NPPL. By "deferred item" I mean one of a range of issues of some complexity where there was a significant degree of disagreement between NPPL Steering Group member organisations to the extent that trying to resolve them all before launching the NPPL would have held it up for another couple of years and probably scuppered it altogether.

We have pointed out in writing to the CAA on more then one occasion that this particular issue needs resolving quickly, and await a reply. If we haven't received one shortly, we may consider asking the Pilot's Licensing Policy Group to take this up with the Minister at the Department of Transport in their next meeting before the end of November. This lobbying Group compromises some very big hitters in the UK Flight Training Industry, many of them GAMTA (General Aviation Manufacturers and Traders Association) members, who have access at Ministerial level. I am a founder member of this group on behalf of the BMAA and, although we have had little involvement with its workings so far because they have largely been dealing with JAR licensing issues, I keep in touch with what they are doing and with those involved, one of whom is also a BMAA member.

We have also encouraged those affected to write to the Head of Personnel Licensing Division at the CAA and at least one microlight FIC instructor who wishes to train AFIs this winter has sent in a very strongly worded letter involving terms along the lines of restriction of trade and prevented from earning a living.
We expect this will concentrate some minds at Gatwick.

I am confident we will get this resolved, but can't predict exactly when.

Although the above is about adding instructor ratings, the CAA have also stopped adding Microlight ratings to all licenses, they have taken the stand piont that if you want to fly Micro's then you need to get the NPPL........ :-(

Adeos

[QNH 1013]

Whatever next? Perhaps a separate licence before you can fly a tailwheel aircraft, with another licence for open cockpit and yet another licence for tandem (cf side by side) seating?

What seems crazy to me is that I fly a 255kg max gross weight aircraft that is classed as a group A aircraft because the stall speed is way too high to be classed as a microlight. The crazy bit (if I have understood the discussion above) is that I would not be allowed to fly it without further training, a GFT, another licence and a stiff fee, if it was more docile and tame through having more wing area and a lower stall speed.

Again let me state that I am a great supporter of the NPPL and I don't believe these new restrictions were caused by the NPPL. The introduction of the NPPL should not change the validity of the old CAA licence.

[Pogs]

Thanks for the responses - I guess I'll have to write a letter to Mr Elder and see what happens.

Happy & safe landings to all

Pogs

[bingoboy]

Does anyone have a list of " deferred items " ?? that we can see ?

and more interestingly which NPPL Steering group members caused them to be so ?

and then I suppose why .