crop spraying and banner towing after ATPL training??

[cloudn9ne]

Hi all,

I am A JAA ATPL holder with 180hours. An airline job at the moment is out of the question so should I train in crop spraying or banner towing to get airbourne and build hours????

Seems like a silly question but i was told by OATS that i should not stray from the airline world as it would make getting a job EVEN harder in the long term as i would lose or forget the 'airline' style training that OXford had taught me.

Is this true?? surley any type of flying is better than working in a none flying role even if it is in an airline.

Please could you shed some light on this and if possible some info on how or where to get into banner towing and the same for crop spraying although i realise the both would most likely be none UK.

By the way im only 21 and i see anything like the above as a great opportunity to get a little life experience in something different for a while!!

Thankyou in advance to anyone who knows more than i do on these matters and can help at all, Ben ([email protected])

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am mildly suprised that having gone through a complete course you are unaware of just how tiny the UK banner/crop market is. Basically there is NO crop spraying and banner towing is at best a very small half dozen aircraft utilised in the summer by the same old faces.

You should be looking more towards instructional work (not easy) or safety pilot work (not paid and its all about contacts). Some airlines ARE actually taking low time guys - mine for one - although they don't shout about it much so do keep plugging away.

To be honest the miserable few hours and no money that you are likely to get from the above is not worth it IF you can go and earn a decent crust elsewhere outside of aviation. If you save some cash and spend it on some decent twin sim time in 6 months - perhaps with a small syndicate - you would be better off.

Cheers,

WWW

[Polar_stereographic]

WWW,

Much that I applaude your crowd for taking on low hour'd pilots, would you care to explain to me what the logic is when (acording to BALPA) there have been 1100 rated crews let go in the last six months?

btw, totaly agree with your comments above. Someone once told me that crop spraying was dangerous on two accounts - if the flying did not kill you, the chemicals would.

PS

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]</p>

[RVR800]

Cheaper?. .Sorry Low-Cost...

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: RVR800 ]</p>

[Polar_stereographic]

Really? The'd all be at it if that where the case?

I must be missing a trick here.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Only ramp rumours but someone recently joined as an FO pretty much fresh out of school. Who knows the whys and wherefores of a specific case.

However I have heard many people who know about these things far better than I that ideally we will still take a broad spectrum of experience in recruitment. This has numerous benefits for the training department and career management within the company.

easyJet are happily still asking for applicants with no previous jet or even turbine experience - only the raw 1,500hrs. Remember the low costs are expanding at a hige rate, e.g. Go will acquire five additional B737-300 aircraft to the line in the next 6 weeks.

WWW

[FlyingForFun]

Out of interest, cloudn9ne, how did you get a JAA ATPL with only 180 hours? Or is this a typo?

FFF. .---------

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

RVR800. Cheaper? In what way? The pay scales would be the same for anyone joining without time on type. Plus of course there is the small matter of a Boeing type rating to consider. IF someone does get selected with little experience at this time I can only assume it is becuase they are very talented.

If you want to throw accusations of cheap pilots about you should start with British Airways and what they pay their cadets for the first 3 years of their careers. Less than any easyJet or Go First Officer.

I think we should all just be grateful that at least some airline are hiring at this time.

Good luck one and all,

WWW

[calypso]

My two pennies:

I have one season (june till Sept) doing banner towing in Southern Spain. The companies involved are run very much in a friends only basis and it is difficult to break into them. It is however not impossible and it will involve the spending large ammounts of time at the airfield, getting to know everybody, doing errands, setting the banners, etc for free. Once they accept you you will need a vacancy to become available...

Another important factor, both for bannner towing and Crop Sp., is if you have any taildragger experience. Most of the former and all of the latter have taildragggers and nobody will let you experiment with their aircraft first. You will need to pay somebody to give you a taildragger conversion.

So Banner Towing is possible but not easy. There are a couple of firms in Madrid that will hire you for the summer and you will fly around the coast sleeping at a different location every night (quite romantic but also lonely). Other have a permanent base and you will do only ocasional trips away from the base.. .The flying itself is very rewarding and mostly a seat of the pants affair, you will learn to really handle the aircraft and to make decissions for yourself. Picking up the banner is great fun and requires quite a skill as you have to swop down and hook it from a set of small goal posts. It is true however that this is not procedural flying as taught in schools and you will have to set your own standards and keep them. It is all up to you.

Crop Spraying is a different matter. Here experience in taildraggers is even more crucial and they often require around 200 hrs tail experience. This is understandable if you see the size and power (650 hp +) of a turboprop airtractor and consider that you are expected to land in a small dirt track for refuelling and reloading. The main dangers are power cables, shody maintenace and ofcourse the chemicals in that order. Most accidents happen from hitting power lines and you are often required to fly underneath them in every pass to get the job done. This is very demanding flying and arguably not the sort of stuff to do with low hours. Accidents are very frequent and as a result the money is pretty good. As before it is up to you to set and maintain your own high standards and keep out of trouble.

My view is that if you like to do something like this, and the flying is superb, you will be better off getting in touch with gliding clubs or parachute clubs back in the Uk. I beleive that they do a lot of flying (no pay) and they are, relatively, easy to get into.

regds

cal

[cloudn9ne]

thankyou for the advice everyone, its much appreciated.

WWW I realsie that if I was to fly in either of the mentioned roles it would be outside of the Uk. But this is something I am whilling to do if it means a flying job. A few people have now mentioned Instructional flying as a much better option but surely this has the same problem as the airlines......training schools have a large choice of experienced and qualified pilots to pick from who have recently benn made redundant elsewhere??. Hence my investigation into other work where a job at the end of training is more certain.

FFF when I say I hold a JAA ATPL I am refering to a 'Frozen ATPL' hence the low hours.

And Cal thanks for sharing your knowledge, I had presumed both parashute dropping and glider towing were extremely hard to break into. Glider towing normally stemming form previous gliding experience. Are there any particular clubs that you know from experience?? have you worked in this area yourself and how did you initially get into banner towing??

Thankyou, Ben.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well travel abroad to find such low paid work is likely to provide you with a net loss. But good luck anyway.

Glider towing is the best option as there is some of this work in the UK every year. It was usually unpaid up until last year when some people were getting living expenses thrown in... with the differing circumstances I imagine that will not be the case this year.

In Spain I had the good fortune to fly up close with crop sprayers and had a sit in the cockpit of one in Seville. These aircraft are absolute beasts. 1200shp turboprops that take off at the edge of perf limits, operate down to 20ft pulling 3 - 4 g's before landing on an improvised strip in the middle of nowehere. You are also the mechanic.

Frankly - and not wishing to be demeaning, the same applies to myself - you are not up to the job. Don't waste peoples time.

Good luck,

WWW

[Chuck Ellsworth]

WWW:

Just a suggestion WWW, when you give an opinion on something perhaps maybe you should have some expertise on the subject first.

Your comments regarding Ag. flying do not reveal any knowledge of the subject and may be doing a disservice to the people asking advice. Your comments are missleading and do not properly describe Ag. flying.

.............. . :) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You're telling me a 200hr pilot with less than 50hrs P1 is actually going to get a job or be safe flying this type of specialist flying?!

Its often floated as a vague idea by Wannabes that if they don't get that jet job they'll "Go bush flying in Africa/crop spray/tow gliders and banners/do some instructing". Many often have little idea what they are talking about. Less even than I :)

Canadian crop spraying might be easy and safe to get into for low time guys. I wouldn't know. I know from talking in broken Spanish in Seville that in the JAA area it is very difficult. Understandably so in my opinion.

WWW

[Joaquín]

Perhaps new for most of you here.

There is now a JAR requirement to get a rating for Agricultural and Fire Fighting Flying.

At the moment only 2 schools offer this rating in Spain (and I believe, in Europe) - both in Cordoba. The course consists of 150 hours of theoretical subjects and 23 hours of training in an agricultural plane adapted and certified for two pilots.

I am about to finish the first promotion in Spain, doing the flying in a Pawnee PA 25 and I'm enjoying every minute of it <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Unfortunately, we are at the beginning of a dry period which will last for about 3 more years, so the prospects of jobs are dim (as everywhere else <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> ).

[Chuck Ellsworth]

WWW:

Yes, WWW I am telling you that a low time pilot can start their aviation career in Ag. flying. My first flight as a paid commercial pilot was in a J3 Cub spraying tobacco in Southern Ontario. My total time was 252 hours. The company for whom I worked gave us a very in depth training course before sending us out to work. Also for your information they selected three of us from a starting pool of twenty five pilots on the course.

You are also mistaken as to the difficulty or lack thereof flying Ag. airplanes in Canada, in fact we have some of the most difficult flying in the business especially the tobacco fields of southern Ontario due to their small size and many obstacles such as tree lines.

Your insertion of the JAA rules is a red herring because JAA is nothing but a hinderence to aviation, and I can assure you it does nothing to advance Ag. flying. You guys have it and you can live with it just don't try and sell that B.S. to the rest of the world.

Now back to Cloudn9ne and your question, yes you can start your career in Ag. flying, Banner towing, Glider towing, instructing or anything you really want to do. What your employer will look for is your attitude and flying skills plus a desire to work. Before you take any advise you should seriously examine who is giving the advise and what their knowledge of the subject truly is.

Airline flying is an excellent career, however it also is fraught with risk of loss of employment, even after many years of employment. Therefore it is to your advantage to pick up every skill in flying that you can get. If you are an unemployed airline pilot you have a far better chance of finding work if you have other flying skills to offer.

Having spent my life in aviation here are my thoughts. Ag. flying was hands down the best flying job I ever held, airline flying is very structured and boring. Now that is only my opinion. ( Oh, by the way I found the Airbus to be a facinating multi colored video game that was exceptionally fun to fly. )

I can remember the thrill of my first job like it was yesterday and would give anything to be your age and start all over again alas it is impossible but I am with you in my thoughts. So you go get everything you want because you can if you really try.

............ . :) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Cat Driver. We seem to be slightly at cross purposes. You seem to be providing advice for someone operating in the US/Canada FAA world and I to someone operating in the EU/JAA world.

There is nothing like the crop spraying industry in the EU as in North America. In many major countries it has been illegal for many many years... Spain being one of the exceptions means the schools are there. But even if you paid the large sums required for the rating you would be unable to find work as you are not Spanish and lets face it - a local boy is going to get the job over some pale faced limey who doesn't speak Spanish.

I am not "trying to sell that (JAA) BS to the rest of the world". I am merely accepting the fact that those are the rules that apply in this case. There is very little point encouraging a somewhat poorly informed your pilot with a JAA CPL to consider ag flying work in Canada/USA as on day one his lack of FAA license will bring avery premature end to his career there.

The best advice would be to try to find Glider Tug work but thats very hard IF you have no prior glider experience which all clubs like you to have very much indeed. After that its a Safety Pilot with a piston charter outfit but no pay and nothing for the logbook. Then it might be a FI course but thats five grand and there are a lot of unemployed instructors out there who cannot find work and have more experience than you.

Hobsons choice really.

Personally. If I had no lucrative desk job to go back to e.g. IT contracting, I would try to get a ground job in aviation. Ops departments, ground handling or maybe cabin crew. It will help keep you in touch with the industry and will only help when you do get that airline interview. Having Ops or ground handling experience might open the door into a part ground - part co-pilot job with a smaller air taxi outfit...

Keep your chin up.

WWW

[Chuck Ellsworth]

WWW:

Your points are well taken and I agree I am speaking from the North American perspective.

As to the JAA and JAR stuff I personally feel from what I have observed that it is not advancing aviation in your country. But don't feel bad we are catching up quite nicely here in Canada.

The final proof of course will be when the paper pushers one day go in to work and wonder why there is no aviation to make rules for.

Now you and I can live contentedly side by side in our worlds as we cannot control the outcome even if we wanted to.

I am thankful for having survived my career without knowing the danger I was in not having all these bureaucrats telling me how to think and fly the aeroplanes and helicopters I earned my living with. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I must be lucky huh??

Peace be with you WWW. and no hard feelings OK? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Cool.

WWW

[calypso]

I am glad the hatchet has been buried...

While it is quite hard to enter this restricted world joining an airline is no easier. I do not subscribe to the nationalistic argument. It is not about nationality or hair colour but about attitude, commitment, making yourself useful and connecting with people. People hire other people they like and feel they can trust. This can be achieved regardless of where you are from (certainly within Europe). It is true that language is a factor but surely, whether working as a pilot or as anything else, if you want to succeed in a foreign country you must learn the language. This does not mean getting a linguistics degree but being able to comunicate. Not that hard if you can be bothered to put some effort into it. This will besides allow you to enjoy your time there much more.

My, outsiders, experience of AG flying is that a lot of accidents do happen. I hear of them all the time. This is often due to power cables and flying very close to the envelope as WWW says. In an environment like this you make your own safety and it is up to you to keep out of trouble. Low hours unfortunately means less experience to avoid potential dangers, less confidence to stand your ground, less resources once trouble begins...This can be offset by taking extra care and being double cautious but the increased risk is there. In Spain you are unlikely to get given the chance to start with a relatively tame J3, the very minimum being a 260hp paunee and more likely an airtractor. The type rating is just more red tape. 150 hours learning the different types of crops is unlikely to help you recover an incipient spin clse to the ground in an overloaded or perhaps bent aircraft. That is why, type rating or not, they most often ask for a whole load of taildragger hours.

If towing gliders means learning to fly gliders, what is the problem? most gliding clubs work in a cooperative basis and joining and learning to fly is relatively inexpensive if you are prepared to join in the work. The efficient type of flying you need to learn to stay aloft longer in a glider can only help you later on. Join a club, help out, drive the retrive tractor, serve teas at the bar, talk to people... and you will eventually fly the tug. No doubt about it!Last summer there was a chap from Wales desperately looking for somebody to fly his tug...

Nothing comes free but with sufficient goodwill and determination most reasonable things are possible.

If you really like the idea of banner towing I can provide you with the name and number of somebody in the UK that is a small operator. Who knows?

Cal

[Rowley]

CATDRIVER

I dont mean to butt in nor cause an argument.

Maybe you shouldnt criticise WWW. He is only offering his advice on this subject and advice has been pretty hard to come by lately. Dont forget WWW is probably on his day off and he's spending it helping us lot out. So,WWW,keep it coming pal!! :) <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> :)

[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: Rowley ]</p>

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hi Rowley:

I am sure WWW. is able to live with someone discussing flying with him and judging by his last post he has recovered from my stating my opinion. Remember this is a wannabes forum and when I answer or reply to questions I try to seperate fact from fiction. There is nothing wrong with WWW or anyone else giving their opinion on any subject, however there is also nothing wrong with expressing a differing opinion based on experience in the field in question. That was what I was attempting to do.

Calypso:

The J3 Cub configured for crop spraying operations and loaded with chemicals is not as "relatively tame" as the Piper Pawnee. In 1962 I bought the first Piper Pawnee 235 in Canada and having flown both types extensively ( J3 / Pawnee ) I found the J3 to be more demanding and less forgiving than the Pawnee. Then that is only my opinion and I could have been wrong.

Anyhow all of us are only giving our own opinions about the various subjects and we are equally entitled to express same. The wannabes will read the different ideas and come to their own conclusions.

.................. . :) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hey hey - I have no problem with people like Cat Driver giving what they feel to be honest advice. I have survived FAR more scathing argument on PPRuNe than this over the years. I am the original Immoderate Moderator <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

To be honest the crop spraying is a non starter for a brit with 200hrs. You ain't up to the job, nobody is going to hire you in a tiny market and its all very well believing in fair play in Europe but Juan Sanchez the Ag flying Boss will hire young Pedro before young Peter EVERY time. And rightly so really. Operating with a handful of people in a VFR hazardous environment the inablity to communicate effectively would be dangerous and detrimental to operational effectiveness.

The chap from Wales needing a tug driver is deluged with applicants this year. There are unemployed pilots looking to be tug pilots up and down the country who have hundreds of hours gliding under their belts and I know of at least one club (Long Mynd) that has turned down someone with an unfrozen ATPL and a BGA Silver to his name...

A relevant ground job as suggested might be the most realistic proposition I am afraid.

WWW

[Chuck Ellsworth]

WWW:

Yeh, I didn't think you would lose any sleep over me and you not being on the same frequency, especially when it was me that was tuned in wrong.

The truth is that aviation is cyclical and has historically had highs and lows.

Another factor is just plain dumb luck and being in the right place at the right time.

When I started my career the market was flooded with airforce pilots from WW2 and a general slowdown during the early and mid fifties. However I was in the right place at the right time. I worked at the airport in my sprae time fuelling and washing airplanes. They finally got so fed up with me they gave me a job.

We must never allow ourselves to lose faith in being able to succeed in whatever we want to do. If at first you fail try again.

The only problem with that advice is sure looks hollow when you compare it to reality.

.................. . :) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[mutt]

Calypso,

Out of interest, how much is that Ag-pilot course?

Mutt.

[fitrnturner]

it's a BIG advantage these days to have a rural background for ag work, infact its almost essential, and its a tough industry to get a break, because of the seasonal nature it can take years, but once you are in the right place at the right time it is amazing what can happen and how quick the ladder can be climbed.

[cloudn9ne]

WWW i'm not asking for critism on my lack of experience or possible inability to fly an AG aircraft. I just ask for a little advice on a subject I know little about. We all have to start somewhere and asking questions shouldnt be faced with a demeaning attitude.. . Thankyou though for the more postive and constructive advice you posted later on and thankyou to everyone else who has replied in a helpful manner, Ben.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

O looked into Ag flying years back when i first started to fly, as with an agricultural bacjground i wanted to put the 2 together. didn't prove much of a starter as my flying career went elsewhere. I was in aus/NZ at the time. Ag flying over there is mainly alomg the lines of topdressing in NZ, and rice sowing/spraying in Vic/NSW. General way in is as a loader driver for a few years, then as the vacancies come up some of the easier work until you get the experience. At least from the NZ view the 'golden age' has been over for a few years now and it's the well established owner operators doing the work. NZ also has a strong general link with flying and farming, so it's the boys on the stations that get the work.

Aus is a pretty similar scene with the rice work. The old hands have a world season of several months in Africa, followed by a few months in Aus and then Europe. Not much (none?) in the Uk due to the Food & Environment Protection Act (1988). One of the points that sticks in my mind is that you need to inform the local piloce and the local bee-keepers liaision officer 24 hours before you inted to operate!!

Try <a href="http://www.agair-update.com" target="_blank">www.agair-update.com</a>

As for banner towing, there doesn't seem to be much about, if looking out the window is anything to go by. I used to work at Exeter Flying Club, and they had a whole set of banner equipment stored away that hadn't been used for a number of years. Might still be there. Make them an offer and set up for yourself!!

[Chris2]

cloudn9ne

Seeing as you are young, and keen to go overseas, why not head off to Africa and try your luck there.

Plenty of guys have started their careers flying tourists around the bush and are now flying for airlines. There is also some interesting work flying for the relief organisations, often on turbine aircraft, if you can find it.

As is the case everywhere, it helps to be in the right place and you need to get to know the people involved.

Good luck. .Dutchie