Frozen ATPL Deadline ?

[PorcoRosso]

As I have read and heard different views on this one, I would like to know if there is a deadline to unfreeze my frozen ATPL thing ?

Thanks

[DB6]

30 June 2002, it must be on their desk by then.

[xabi200]

I don't know what kind of license you've got but as far as JAR licences are concerned, evrytime you renew you IR it revalidates your frozen ATPL for another 8 years. So I assume you've got as long as your IR is valid to log 1500h

[PorcoRosso]

Thank you for your replies guys

Actually, I am holding both papers : A UK CPL/IR, and a JAR CPL/IR (both issued in UK, obviously)

It seems I am still ending with different opinions on the subject !

Cheers

[DB6]

After 30 June 2002 it will be impossible to unfreeze your CAA frozen ATPL using the CAA criteria i.e. 1500 hrs of which 100 night (in simple terms). You will then be subject to the JAA criteria i.e. 1500 hrs of which 500 multi-crew (I think). You will not, however, lose your exam credits since a valid IR keeps them going for 7 years so in effect you can keep renewing your IR until you land an airline job then accrue 500 hrs mutli-crew and Bob's your uncle. Alternatively , like me you can scramble for those 100 night hours and unfreeze before then to get a BRITISH ATPL and F@*£ JAA FOREVER! B*&^%&DS!. .(You may guess I'm not keen on JAR).

[PorcoRosso]

Hi DB6

I guess nobody is keen about JAR licenses ! . .About my ATPL to be unfroezen; I do presently have 1100 Hrs, and a good 100 Hrs at night. But I'll never make the 400 Hrs missing before june.. .My main concern was to lose all the credits for the written exams, and to have to do the all thing again.. .Soon or later, I hope I can get an airline job to log those 500 Hrs multicrew.

Cheers, PR

[juswonnafly]

DB6

Oh YES! I am with you all the way on this one (now where did I leave my torch?)

:) :) :)

JWF

[Avenger]

Porco,

Although there is a dislike to the JAR system at the moment, the reality is that we will all end up with a JAR licence at some time.. .The outfit I work for has just aquired some extra aircraft which are registered in a JAR member state and they will continue to be so. If we want to fly them then we must apply for a JAR ATPL, which the CAA are offering FOC at the time of application for the UK ATPL.. .Our foreign pilots who are flying on validations from the CAA are also getting JAR licence.. .PS I hear EZY are going all JAR as well..

[PorcoRosso]

Hi Guys

If you look at my profile, you can guess I am french. . .As I am looking for an employment worldwide, I can't say I am totally against JAR. Let's say I am upset to see the way it took.. .Just to give you an example.. .I am holding a JAR CPl issued by the CAA ...But it is not considered JAR by the french authorities !! The worst is that the CAA accept a JAR licence issued by the french Civil Aviation.. .I hate all those absurd "one way" attitude, mainly coming , I reckon, from the frogs . <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . .I am pretty sure all this crap will gently take the good direction; but am afraid it will take some years.

Cheers !

Anyone at Jersey Tuesday ? I maybe around for maintenance .. .If so, Drop me an e-mail .

[xabi200]

hey porco rosso,

Same problem with me.. .I went to a JAR approved school(by UK CAA)I did 10 month in Australia and 6 month in Jerez.. .So I was issued a CPL/IR frozen ATPL done according to JAR FCL rules.. .Spain accepts it with no questions asked i.e I can fly in a spanish registered aircraft without any validation from the spanish DGAC.. .I only get crap from the french DGAC,I've been trying to get my french validation since last May.. .The guy from the DGAC Mr Buffat(boss of the licensing department tel:01-58-09-42-64)he told me that he will have a meeting with the CAA on February 28th to find a solution. Basically they don't trust the UK CAA in issuing licences.I guess the french DGAC is much better,french are always better than anybody in the world,aren't they?. .The worse thing is that he told me/"WE AT THE DGAC WE WON'T BE ABLE TO HOLD ON TO OUR POSITION MUCH LONGER,IT IS A SHAME THAT YOU DID NOT STUDY IN FRANCE...". .Which means:" we are wrong, we know we are wrong but we are going to try and block the situation as much as we can". .In the mean time I missed work opportunities with La regional and possibly Britair, b4 sept 11th.. .In my opinion, they know that most UK school offer flying hours in the US, they are JAR school in the US what the point of doing a licence in France when you can do it cheaper in english with UK CAA approved FTO?. .Who speak french in the world????? What is the point in doing it in France???I think that the frenchs are just jealous of the englishes.. .Have you ever notice the difference when calling the DGAC and the CAA?DGAC answers right away nobody calls them unlike CAA where you have to hold for hours.Anyway who wants a paper written in French? It is great for Africa but is africa our long term goal???I think we'd rather work for Cathay or Emirates, can they read french???. .France is a small country which got f**** over an d over by england and it does not admit it.The french can't get over the fact that england stole all their colony and that the anglo saxons/anglo saxon system/english language rule the world.. .The only things they have left is food wine and love making. Does the DGAC test pilot abilities on flying an ILS within tolerance while having sex in the cockpit drinking a glass of Bordeaux?????. .I don' really want to work in France,I want to multiply my chances to find employment.. .So what I did is do a "recour aupres du mediateur de la republique" because france does not play by the JAR rules. Every body who seeks validation should do that.Then we will have more power.

[PorcoRosso]

Xabi

Being french myself I can't totally agree with your judgment about us.. .The main reason France doesn't want to play the JAR rules is that here, we have a very strong lobbying coming from flying schools (not many in France) They want to protect themselves from student fleeing away the other side of the channel or atlantic.. .About the colony business ... I don't think this is what we are talking about here; as a matter of fact, UK doesn't have many colonies remaining.. .Personnally, I chose to make my flight training in UK for various reasons, one of them being that I feel openminded, and therefore, don't consider very important our past History.

Cheers

[juggernaut]

Like a lot of you I sat the UK ATPL exams (valid 10 years)a few years ago thinking I would get the licence issued when I met the requirements,I have recently contacted Gatwick to find out to my horror that not only must I pass the I.R. before the June deadline but also fulfill the hours 1500TT, 100night, 200IFR etc. otherwise I must sit all the JAR ATPL exams and complete an approved 55 hour modular I.R. course! I still cannot believe that yet again I have been shafted by JAR, at the moment I am in panic mode and trying to finish the night hours and get some IR training before doomsday! Can someone explain the logic behind all of this?

[Polar_stereographic]

juggernaut,

Presumably you hold a CPL. My understanding is that the ATPL credits are good for 7 years after your last IR pass/renewal. There is no urgent need to get an ATPL before June as you can carry on with your CPL prevaleges, it's just that when you are ready for an ATPL, you'll have to get a JAR one, and that means 500 hours multicrew as well.

I'm about 150 hours short of the ATPL requirement, and I'm not in a tissy about it. My view is that when the time comes, I'll do the JAR bit, hopefully with the 500 hours multi crew paid for not by me.

Does that help?

PS

[xabi200]

Hey porcorossso,

I know it is school lobying that prevent them from validating our licence maybe even the pilot union.But this Europe now, if it is only now that they realize it, then it is too late. They should lower their price and teach in English, they've been too used of being protected by the french state and being in an almost monopoly situation.. .In any case they are wrong and it is us tax payer who has to pay for their mistakes.Because of them I'm stuck at home.. .Moreover, unlike us they are totaly closed minded.. .In one word they are uneficient FONCTIONAIRE who do not want to change their way of working and are waiting for retirement.If they would be private like the UK CAA things would be better.. .If they decide to join JAA then they do it all the way, just like the english.They don'tmind having French licences validated in the UK but they don't want to validate UK licence, is that fair????. .Hopefully It'll be resolve on the 28, but I doubt it.

[Polar_stereographic]

xabi200,

I don't wish to sound anti French (that I'm not), but I was at FCL the other day and overheard a conversation that went along the following lines:

"A type rating issued in the UK is valid in any JAR member states except France. A French issued rating is valid everywhere."

Actualy there was a lot more that I overheard, but I'm keeping that to myself. It was a facinating half an hour.

Hmmm.

PS

[Quarternion.]

I'm curious as to why the mad dash for this ATPL qualification.

Just what is the point in this mad scramble for the CAA ATPL?

Why plough all this money trying to achieve this deadline, fro example by going to florida and flying around in circles to do night hour building? What does this prove?

Are the airlines really going to look highly on people who have an ATPL and all they have ever flown is general aviation aircraft with relatively low performance i.e. C150 / PA28 / PA34 etc?

Save your money for re-validating your IR - convert your licence to a JAR CPL with frozen ATPL credits and get your ATPL when the airline you join give you the 500 multi crew required. In a sense with 500 multi crew, you are indeed an air transport pilot.

In two years time how valuable will a CAA ATPL be? and how will this be looked upon by prospective employers in a european market?

JAR has been a pain in the A*^&% for me also, but I'm not throwing any more good money after bad.

So can someone tell me the advantage of getting a CAA ATPL as this qualification becomes redundant?

Perhaps I'm missing the point. It just sounds like desperation as far as I'm concerned and you are all getting burned for nothing.

[Polar_stereographic]

Quarternion,

Remember that you can convert like for like between the JAR and CAA systems, except for the 500 hour multicrew, in esence they are the same.

It's just even more of a pain in the rear to get a JAR licence, so anybody able to get a CAA one will save the extra's that JAR imposes (except the 500 hmc)

PS

[xabi200]

Hey polar stereographic,

My mouth is watering for more...... .Come on give me more,don't forget this is RUMOR network.. .It will give me more things to throw to their face next time I call the french DGAC, which will on the 29th, or 1st of March.I've been fighting with them for almost a year now.. .That is a good move from the UK CAA to accept french isued licences and type rating so the DGAC can't use that as an excuse.. .Waiting for your post.

[SkyGuy]

Quarternionyour talkin rubbish!! If you convert from a CAA CPL(Frozen ATPL) to a JAR CPL you will then need to do all the exams to get a JAR ATPL. . .My advice to you Porco Rossois if you are that worried about this then spend a few quid on hold whilst tryin to get through FCL, granted it will take about 3 hours but at least you will know for sure and GET IT IN WRITING FROM THEM.. .The problem with this site is everybody knows everything and nobody knows nothing!. .OH! Let us all know the outcome!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Quarternion.]

Sky Guy,

Funny enough, I decided to cross over to the JAR system as early as possible based on UK qualifications as it seemed the most cost effective. I now have frozen CAA ATPL exams locked into a JAR CPL(A)(R).

You are correct, its best to get confirmation in writing, so the CAA have written to me and confirmed that the minimum requirement for me now is to pass an IR and that can be done on a single. No further JAR ATPL exams required.

So I'm not getting succered into throwing more money on the fire. I still don't think there's any point in chasing a dead qualification. But if you want an ATPL based on flying around in C150's I'm sure the airlines will respect you for it !!!

Perhaps someone can verify your claim - I have it writing from the CAA and I'm very happy with the letter - thanks....

[Polar_stereographic]

SkyGuy,

Your not right old chap. My understanding (and I'll qualify it as that as the goal posts are not set in stone) is that it's actualy better under JAR than before. Your exams WILL be JAR credited, and because of the extra requirement of 500 hours multi crew, the frozen part of your ATPL is valid for SEVEN years. The only catch is that it's seven years from your last IR renewal, so you must have the IR, but in their defence, it's a rolling seven years, ie you get another seven years each time you renew your IR.

xabi200,

The rest of what I overheard is not really relevant to this topic. But, the French attitude to not accepting 'others' JAR issued licences, is really just about their protectionism and union pressures to stop non French from working in France. RVR800 will no doubt chip in with his view on this. Personaly, I think it sucks for JAR and they should not be allowed o get away with it.

An someone said to me, how many non French do you know working in France? Ask the same question over here, and you have two answers as far away from each other as you could get.

PS

[xabi200]

My mouth is watering now, come on this is RUMOR NETWORK, give me more.

I will call the DGAC after the 28th of feb. so I need more materials in my fight against them.

I waiting impatiently.

[Polar_stereographic]

xabi200 . . . .I am not an authority on licence validities within JAR, just relayed what I overheard.

May I suggest that you ask either the CAA directly and the JAR authorities some searching questions regarding the validity of licences within memeber states rather than rely on what I've overheard. Your much more likely to get chapter and verse from them, and you'll be able to quote it too!. Get my drift?

PS

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]</p>

[xabi200]

hey polarstereographic,

couldn't you find a shorter name????

Anyway,I'm dying to know more.

This is RUMOR network so come on give me more,beside it will give me more grounds when I'll be calling the DGAC next week.. .I've been fighting for nearly one year.I may even go to court with them.

waiting.

[xabi200]

I'm dying to know more.

[Quarternion.]

Xabi200,

What Polar_S. has overheard is just the tip of a very solid iceberg which you won't be able to dent I'm afraid.

When you start getting your lawyer involved you will be told about the difficuties the French DGAC are encountering with their own legal system.

Whilst it is easy to ammend English Common law by placing ammendments to the ANO, it is far far more difficult to change French Law as French Law based on some Napoleonic code which needs completely rewriting as it does not automatically accept ammendments by precedent. It will take an awful long time for this to happen although things are happening.

In short it is far far easier for English law to convert to European law than it is for France law to convert to European Law. That also goes for the implementation JAR into French Law as well unfortunately.

Perhaps that is why English people are more flexible and adaptable as they live under more flexible rules of law and not stuck in the dark ages.

So if you want to take on the French DGAC feel free I'll be all ears, but you will be taking on the whole French Legal Establishment I'm afraid. Its funny how the French treat their own worse than we do - normally its the english establishments who are the culprits !!!

Ever thought about becoming English? . .- I put that question to a Frenchmen once before, but the tricolour was hoisted and the answer was rather rude. If the question was reversed I would probably answer equally he same.

Napolean had great influence in his time and unfortunately still alive and kicking in the DGAC.

Europe is far from being round the corner I'm afraid !!!

Regards & let's know how far you get.

[xabi200]

Hey Quarternion,

. .Actually I hold a french passport.. .I think the english passport is better at least to go work in australia.. .Overall I strongly feel that the anglosaxon system is better,I just can't convince the DGAC.... .I tried to get a green card to get an american passport at some point in my life but it did not come through. So so far I'm sticking to my french passport awaiting a Basque passport, I guess I'll never get that one.... .Unfortunatly I don't have enough money to go to court and by thetime the case is judged it'll be retirement time.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers