Wind damage reports??

[Stampe]

Surprised no ones started a thread reporting damage caused by yesterdays gales!!.So here goes, Rochester 172 tied down badly damaged right wing first 2 foot or so of wing leading edge bent up following ground contact.Glad my two were snuggled up indoors it amazes me how complacent owners are about leaving aircraft outside in this sort of weather .guess the insurers had a bad day tho we all pay in the end!!.:rolleyes:

[Lowtimer]

In the London free morning paper there's a picture of a German-registered Cub on its back alongside an inverted Cessna, both according to the caption at the Hampton Aero Club, Hampshire.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Report on 'Today' on R4 this morning from Cadiff. Several light aircraft written off, many more damaged.

SSD

[FlyingForFun]

Lowtimer,

Yes, I saw that photo. Bigger version of the same photo in The Sun - big enough that you can see that both aircraft are German-registered. Seems unlikely that two D-registered aircraft would be involved like that unless they were together - a couple of Germans who came across for the weekend, maybe? Hope they found a way of getting home... :eek:

FFF
---------------

[Fly Stimulator]

Here's the picture...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/picture/0,,2002500128,00.jpg

[TheKentishFledgling]

One of the tabloids said the German aeroplanes were of the same type, so the "fly-out" idea occured to me as well :( I think they were at Barley (may have been Furley?) Farm.

Stampe - do you know which 172 it was at EGTO? Which are "your two"?

tKF

[EI_Sparks]

*sniff*
:( That's a heartbreaking picture :(

[TheKentishFledgling]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38391000/jpg/_38391685_1plane300.jpg

One of the poor aeroplanes at Cardiff :(

tKF

[Evo]

To my amazement I saw a light twin heading east at a couple of thousand feet during the worst of it on Sunday morning. Not for long though - he must have had the better part of a 100kt tailwind. :eek: :) Must be very confident in your aeroplane (or mad, I guess) to head up in that weather.

[treadigraph]

The two Germans are a Maule and a Tri-Pacer - Telegraph says at Hampshire Aero Club near Winchester... neither appears to be beyond repair

[Splat]

Just seen the Cardiff footage on the beeb, it looked like to me that the aircraft where not tied down. Anyone know if this was the case.

[poetpilot]

Heard on the grapevine, minor damage to a PA28 at Barton, due to a piece of boarding being blown into it. Thankfully, I'd cajoled the staff into hangaring my 172 on Saturday evening (usually parked outside). Phew! But all tethered a/c appeared safe at about 14:00 local yesterday when I visited.

I'm sure that damaged D-reg Maule had been advertised on www.afors.co.uk recently - I wonder if both D-reg's had been imported for sale? Hope he insured them adequately...

[distaff_beancounter]

Only just caught up with Pprune, after 30 hours with no electricity!

Most of the piccies of inverted light aircraft, seem to be high-wing types, C152, C172, Maule, Cub etc. I seem to recall that this was so, in the last big blow, a few years ago.

So, questions for the techie anoraks, who actually understand both aerodynamics & weather:-

In very high winds, are high-wing types more likely to invert, than low-wings?

Are taildraggers at greater risk than tricycles, & should they be parked into wind or not?

Does it make any difference how they are tied down, i.e. does tying the tail down, as well as wings, stop them somersaulting?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[FlyingForFun]

Hmm, baffled by the high-wing thing. Possibly because the wind-speed is lower closer to the ground???

As for how to park your aircraft, here's what I reckon, after a little bit of thought:

Tricycles

If parked into wind, you would want to secure the elevators in the down position. Securing them in the up position would mean that the wind blowing over the elevators would raise the nose, and increase the angle of attack so that the wings would lift the aircraft off the ground.

If parked away from wind, the opposite is true - if the elevators were secured in the down position, the nose would be raised by the tail-wind. But, in this case, this wouldn't result in the wings generating any lift, because the wind would be from the wrong direction. If the elevators were secured in the up position, the wind would cause the nose to lower slightly against the pressure of the front oleo or spring. Can't see how that would cause any damage unless the wind was very strong.

Tail-draggers

In the three-point attitude, a tail-dragger's wing is at a high enough angle of attack to lift the aircraft off the ground without any further attitude change. So it seems like parking away from the wind is the only sensible option.

With the elevators in the up position, the wind would try to raise the tail. Therefore, securing the elevators in the down position seems preferable.


This is all based on thinking things through logically - no personal experience or sources to quote from. So it's entirely possible there's a flaw in my logic. In fact, I'd probably go so far as to say I'm sure there's a flaw in my logic - now I just need to wait for someone to tell me what it is!

FFF
----------

[distaff_beancounter]

If any of you guys are flying over Wales today, the Army has asked everyone to look out for a blow-up tank, that blew away from a training area (Brecon Beacons, I think), as they would like it back, please. (per BBC Radio 4)

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Fortunately all the soldiers were playing in the bouncy castle, so that didn't blow away.

[treadigraph]

I've heard elsewhere that an inflatable Ronald McDonald is also on the loose...

[Wrong Stuff]

Bright and early yesterday morning I nipped down to the airfield to check that our group AA5 I'd tied down on Saturday afternoon was still in one piece. Thankfully it was, and it seemed to be withstanding the battering quite well, so I was able to relax for the rest of the day :)

Although the tie-downs were holding quite securely, our Cheetah had definitely been rotated a bit into wind. Curiously, the Archer parked a few planes up in the line which was tied down by two bits of lose string didn't seem to have moved at all. While I was there some extremely strong gusts hit and although I could see the tie-downs on the AA5 straining, the Archer just sat there solid as a rock. Weird to watch.

The worst affected did indeed seem to be the high wing aircraft. It might be that the wind is stronger that little bit higher up, but another factor is that the tie-downs you need are three or four times longer, so there's a lot more give in them. Looking up the flight line at a 152 and a 172 it was obvious they can move quite a long way before the tie-downs take effect. A strong gust would stand a much better chance of lifting a wing and really getting under it.

[28thJuly2001]

KentishFledgling,
Where did you get that picture from Cardiff Airport?
It is my club and I want to see if there is any more info on the wrecked planes.
Ta Very Muchly,

28th,,

[Fly Stimulator]

The Cardiff photo is from the BBC News web site here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2366231.stm).


Are any of your club aircraft salvageable, or are they all written off?

I spent an uneasy day myself on Sunday worrying about my own aircraft, but the tie-downs seem to have held. I was concerned about the possibility of other aircraft being blown into it though, which sounds as if it might be what happened at Cardiff

[28thJuly2001]

Don't know about the extent of damage to the aircraft yet as I haven't visited or phoned them. Going to phone tomorrow to see if I can hire a plane for Wednesday and ask about the damaged aircraft. Just hope they can keep the business ticking over through the winter with the remaining aircraft. :(

28th,,

[niknak]

Out of interest only, given the fact that we all had at least 36 hours notice of this impending breeze, would an insurer be justified (legally or otherwise), in refusing to pay out for damge if and aircraft owner / operator had not taken all reasonable steps to hanger the aircraft, where hangerage was available, regardless of the overnight cost of renting space.

Knowing insurance companies logic, it wouldn't suprise me at all if they refused to pay out in quite a few cases.


P.S.
If anyone wants a greenhouse door, half it's roof and 2 panes of glass, I seem to have aquired them overnight - they're available for collection form my back lawn.:D

[poetpilot]

Picking up on an earlier posting re: positioning for tiedowns, It does seem strange to me that the control lock on my 172 sets the elevators in a neutral position.

I'd been thinking about the propensity of high wingers to somersault over the w/e (or indeed over anything :-), and it does make sense (if the aircraft is into wind) to have a means of locking the elevators down.

Until I persuaded Barton to put my aircraft in the hangar, I was quite concerned, as they only had one concrete block available, to which they proposed to tie my beloved aircraft to (I lease it to the club BTW). Since the block can't weigh much more than one or two human beans, I had visions of the aircraft doing a flip, with the concrete landing neatly on top of it to compound the damage.

Another idea, which I've seen advertised in the US, is some funny shaped blocks which you strap to the top of the wing to spoil the lift (called, funnily enough, spoilers). Sounds a good idea, and one that we might be able to cobble up at home - e.g. a sort of "sock" that slips over the wing starting from the wingtip, within which are various odd shaped foam blocks to effectively spoil the aerofoil capability. Doesnt stop the wind from getting underneath the wings & lifting them from below of course....

...and some aviation-related damage.... "Terminal 1" at Sherlowe strip (Shropshire) had its roof partially blown off on Sunday, though the 3 aircraft there are OK.

[bottieburp]

I would expect any insurance company to balk at paying up if the insured was deemed to have failed to have taken 'reasonable precaution' to prevent the damage.

Leaving an aircraft outside in the weekend wind without being properly tied down will surely result in a 'sorry mate - claim refused.'

At best you can expect a 'negotiated settlement' that takes into account the insured's neglect. Max wallet grief I'm afraid. And why not? Why should anybody be in a position to sit indoors and think - 'don't worry about it - it's insured. ' A look at the small print would have got owners rushing to the field I bet!

I was in a Grob syndicate until a year ago - we left it outside for 6 months and folded/ hangared it for the Winter.

The tie-downs were substantial chains set in one-tonne concrete blocks. All I did was dig the holes, drop the chains in and slop the mix in.

We also fitted a set of Cambrai heavyweight covers. Excellent protection plus spoilt aerodynamics.

It never budged.

Total peace of mind for a weekend of digging, plus a few quid on the covers - secondhand when they were bought several years ago and still perfectly fine.

Fortunately - my 3 were all tucked away. I am lucky to have hangarage.

BB

BB

[Splat]

niknak,

Sort of what I was alluding to in my earlier post. If an aircraft is not properly tied down with an impending 'breeze', then I would expect the insurance company to be giving you a hard time if you claim subsequently. If I'm right in thinking that the aircraft where from a flying club, they I'd say someone must be help acountable too. Sort of a 'no brainer' in my books.

S

ps, I have nothing to do with insurance companies.

[Mariner9]

The 2 Cardiff A/C in the BBC picture are both PA 28's so low wing. Apparently both have been written off. :(
Not sure about damage to the club's PA 38 fleet as I never fly them.

The only available hanagarage at Cardiff was demolished last year, with no plans (I believe) for a replacement. Although there is a large empty hanger nearby which is up for lease as a warehouse - not sure why it is unavailable to A/C. :mad:


There are very few tie-downs available on the club apron. In previous storms, the A/C have been parked on the grass & secured to spikes - not sure whether this was done on this occasion. (Although the picture suggest both were on the apron)

I'm not happy at all, I'm sure the A/C won't be replaced for ages (if at all!) it'll probably curtail my flying for the winter. :mad: :mad:

[nonradio]

Power back on now so the computer works..Cub rode out the wind AOK including 60+ kt gusts moored outside in the open (tail into wind), so it is possible! It still amazes me when nosewheel aircraft are damaged (except by flying debris) by high winds. We always put the nosewheels in small dips to reduce wing incidence...and are always aware that a tie-down isn't holding the machine to the ground, ie stopping it flying, but preventing movement relative to your carefully considered parking orientation to the wind direction...

[FNG]

Someone above mentioned that the the aircraft at Cardiff looked as though they had not been tied down. The Today programme interviewed one of the Cardiff instructors who said that all of the aircraft were indeed tied down, but, given the extremity of the conditions, they were damaged nonetheless. A real bummer for the owners, staff and members of that club. Perhaps I'll stop complaining about the high rent and grotty condition of the Waltham hangars where my group's machine slumbered peacefully through the storm (well, I'll stop for a bit). Loved the bit about the flying tank.

[distaff_beancounter]

Loved the bit about the flying tank
According to the front page of The Times today:- (extract only)

"A Helicopter, Land Rover patrols & soldiers under the command of Regimental Sergeant-Major PRATT, have failed to find the rubber tank - officially a "pneumatic deception device" worth £10,000. The lose cannon with a difference was still at large in South Wales yesterday. It was believed to be near Tredegar, possibly heading towards Abergavenny.

Army officers have told police, aviation authorities and local farmers to be ready for its reappearance."


You couldn't make this one up if your tried! :D :D :D

[28thJuly2001]

Phoned Cardiff flying club to see about renting an aircraft for Saturday (was going tomorrow but couldn't make it) and was told they have 5 servicable aircraft left, the rest are either in bits, damaged or being 'checked out'. No chance for Saturday or Sunday.
Looks like weekday flying for me for the foreseeable future.
£150,000 worth of damage was done and quite a fair bit of lost revenue too I should imagine.
To make matters worse I had a letter from them this morning giving me a £10 discount if I pay my membership fee early.
28th,, :D

[wookiepilot]

A £10 discount for early payment of the annual fee at cardiff hey!!
well with a £150k worth of damage im surprised that there are any discounts being banded around or is it just a cunning ploy to keep the current cliontel.:eek:

V.V dissapointing to hear about the damage to the a/c but i would suggest that it was a god-send that they dismantled that 'hangar', used in the loosest sense of the word as i think it may well have joined the inflatable tank and ''old Ron'' on the walk around the country, just prior to it slicing up the a/c that it may have gouged its way through on its departure.

I await my letter of discount!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D