Irish controllers to take UK airspace

[AF1]

Interesting news on the IABB that the IAA are to provide Irish controllers to control the Strumble/Land End sector at LACC at the request of NATS, as it seems they can't cope ... sickness, and lack of staff apparently ...

[BDiONU]

Think there are 9 coming plus another possible 11 from Sweden.

[radar707]

NATS can barely afford to pay it's own staff, where's the money coming from to pay for these "contractors"? Who will train them?

[BDiONU]

NATS will train them, short course at the college then straight into OJT. These people are already licensed ATCO's.
NATS is losing money by the loss of business caused by imposing flow or closing sectors due lack of staff. More staff = more sectors open = more business = more revenue.

[Ahh-40612]

T3C5 - reality check!

"Nats will train them"

Which Nats is this then ?

The few OJTI's who are already struggling to train and maintain their own competencies for a few measly quid??

Most of the new ut's or recent validations are already occupying very limited and role specific seats which further erodes our own legally required exposure to the system.

What MMI training will be given and how and by whom- since the Nerc system is unique ( only polite word I could come up with ) in the ATC world?

If the minutes from the early EU trials debriefs were still around we could say " I told you so".

More knee jerks expected soon!

[BDiONU]

I'm just telling you what I've been told. Although the need to increase revenue from increased throughput of traffic is fairly self evident.
MMI training is hardly a problem, thats what the training section exist for. In fact its the instruction I gave myself during OCT. Its also part of the training all the ATCO T&D's (indeed all U/T's) are given prior to the SVC course.
I guess you're specifically refering to who will give OJTI? Outside my realm I'm afraid, management problem.

[mainecoon]

strange this

if my fellow nats people look at the stuff for the agm of prospect next month you will see the point by heathrow

that point is that nats are sub contracting a controller from cardiff (a good friend and fellow course mate of mine) to the island that we call india oscar mike

short of staff!!

don't want to screw it for him but deploy staff to other areas (sic) if we have a surplus somewhere but maybe that's too logical for the suits

mc

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<NATS will train them, short course at the college then straight into OJT. These people are already licensed ATCO's. >>

Oh.. that's all sorted then. Piece of p really. Next problem please..

[5milesbaby]

Ahh-40612, to quote "The few OJTI's who are already struggling to train and maintain their own competencies for a few measly quid?? "

The number of students versus the number of OJTI's at the moment is so small its not even worth discussing. Most OJTI's are 'lucky' (I use the word very liberally) to see a student once a cycle, well below the figures for training.

Why are the Shannon controllers coming over to do the West End??? Doesn't make an ounce of difference what sector they do does it?? Or have they finally decided that some places are actually harder than others??????????????????

[Scott Voigt]

Hmmmmmmm, I wonder if I should bring my headset in February when I make my trip to the UK???? Might be able to pick up a couple of Pounds to help off set the vacation cost <G>...

[Hippy]

Better keep your eye on it if you do, Scott. I hear decent headsets are hard to come by over here. Do bring some good fonts though, they'll be graetly appreciated.

[Buster the Bear]

Are Prospect seriously allowing this!

No fault of NATS staff that the company is in the pooh!

Borrow ATCO's, WHAT NEXT! Find cheaper labour from around the globe to replace all of us!

No way can this be true, surely?

Then again, I was balloted on the pay rise, based upon the fact that NATS had no more money, then PCS etc got MEAN and got more! No offence to non ATCO's in NATS, but I got SHAFTED by Prospect, I believed the shi@ delivered through my letterbox disguised as a ballot form and previous communications from our union, silly me! Hope this is thought of during our annual union pi@@ up at Bredbury!!!

So allowing non-NATS ATCO's to come in and take 'our' jobs, is par for the course! (Assuming this thread to be fact)!

[Numpo-Nigit]

... and New Scottish Centre will now be a call centre in a Bombay suburb ...

[Take up the Hold]

NN

At least Bombay will be warm!!!!!!

[Loki]

Relax!

Knowing the commercial nous of NATS, these imported ATCOs will work out more expensive than the home grown variety. However, this will also mean less money for things like decent pay, but on the other hand, will allow NATS managers to pay themselves extra for having seemed to have solved a problem.

[jocko0102]

I hope management and government read these threads very carefully.
You are rotten from the top down and only a mass clear out followed by a complete overhaul of the running of NATS will turn us round from the inevitable slide down the ****ter!
Staff in this company are treated with very little respect but every day we work hard to maintain the safe movement of air traffic in the UK.The staff are not consulted and involved enough in decision making within NATS, because if we were then the genuine, positive and constructive input we could give would have a far more beneficial effect on this company than some overpaid manager.
If we keep sitting back and do nothing then we will continue to be shat on and all the problems will only be moved around not resolved.
What a bloody disgrace that we may be hiring ATCOs from other countries because we cant get it right in NATS.
As a final thought I was so glad for my huge back pay this month it made me feel bad that i had voted no,but now i realise i was wrong and that we are now so much better off and everything is ok with a bright future.

[A I]

Apparently the story about recruiting from Ireland and Sweden is correct. This has been confirmed by NATS Management.

Can't wait!! The theory is that the Swedes will do the West End and the Irish are for Clacton and North Sea.

Any news from Dublin or Stockholm??

:) :o :p

[bagpuss lives]

Any chances of me going the other way? :D

Please!!!!!

[canberra]

of course there was another way, they could have used military controllers. but i think that would have been too easy wouldnt it?

[Fallows]

Canberras post about the use of Military controllers is the third or fourth time I have seen this in the last few days. One occasion was on the NATS Swanwick notice board, I presume that he is referring to EX Military controllers who will be put through a shortened course by virtue of their military experience.
This is not meant as a criticism of Military ATC staff, they do a fine job within the Military enviroment, however Civil ATC is an entirely different discipline. I would suggest that if the situation were reversed most civil ATCers would not demand a shortened course by virtue of their civil ATC experience.
I must admit that I get a little annoyed with the presumption of some of our Military ATC colleagues. RANT OVER !

[asdfgh]

If you talk to your civil ATCO collegues you'll find that they are MORE than happy that the Bournemouth course is reduced for Ex-Mil with area (preferably LJAO) experience. The more bums on seats the better!!
The plan to utilise seasoned Ex-Mil is only on hold whilst they work out precisely what course they are going to introduce.

Military & civil controlling have considerable similarities, so I hardly think that there is presumption on anyone's part. Mutual respect if anything.

[need to know]

Hi NERC people

Just saw the cicular over in the emerald isle offering these positions in NERC. Whats it like? Whats the roster like? How do you guys feel about the PADDYS coming over? Is it expensive to live in the area? Is there a good social scene?

I could keep going with these questions but maybe I better go back to work. Would appreciate any answers or advise on the situation.


.........Confused ATCO:confused: :confused:

[DangerousD]

I'm sorry but I cant really see what the problem is, if there will be more valid atco's at the end of the day. I personally wouldn't want to go to Swanick from Dublin unless we in Nats aren't the lowest paid atco's in Europe as we keep making out on these pages, as the most pressing case will be that of money, escpecially if they want to try and buy a house on the south coast!. IF they validate on our sectors they will be on the same pay scales as the rest of us unless the V.N's state anything different! What is the difference from this situation and Nats recruiting people for Swanick from the Mil, Scottish or Manchester?

Also is this any different from us wanting to go and work, say, in Canada or the U.S etc, etc

Rant over

[VectorLine]

if you want to know - email me at [email protected]

and if you can - post a copy of the circular here. I for one am interested in how the job has been advertised to you!!

VL

[need to know]

Thanks for that. The circular was very general. In fact no information at all which is the confusing bit. Will e-mail....

[2 six 4]

I wonder if there is a plan to train the Irish ATCOs ?

Considering the shambles that the last lot of experienced ATCOs from MACC and ScATCC faced at West Drayton, there better be.

[Numpo-Nigit]

With no offence to incoming controllers from Shannon, Sweden, London Mil or wherever, I'm assuming that it is NATS' intention to somehow "fast track" previously-qualified controllers through the validation process.

If Prospect is doing its job properly in representing the interests of those "normal" trainees currently holding at various places in the system, it cannot allow such queue-jumping to occur. These people already have to go through a training process over many years, never knowing until the last whether they actually have a long-term job, and any further delay is unacceptable, as well as counter-productive as it reduces their chances of ultimate success.

Perhaps somebody can tell us the Prospect position on the issue, as the news of a document circulating in Ireland means it is no longer a hypothetical discussion. If there is no policy in place yet, we should badger our reps to force a debate and decision on the issue.

[look out de window]

What I've heard (unconfirmed ), is that area controllers only need apply. Conversion training, including OJT 9 months, then a two year stint.

Notices have been posted in the centres, but with no info just a contact number. :confused:

[bwatchbabe]

I for one will be more than happy to train Irish, Swedish or ex mil controllers that have done a shortened course at the college.
We at LACC must accept that we are not a breed apart from "normal controllers" and that although the traffic levels may be higher than these people are used to, they stand a far better chance of adapting to this than ab-initio trainees. PROVIDED that they are given equal standards of training and not just left to sink or swim as they "should be able to do the job".
I personally feel that it is a sad indictment of the training regime at LACC that we lose so many people that are posted in from other units. I say this as an OJTI and examiner.

[asdfgh]

The shortened course does not mean a 'lesser' controller. Those ex-mil will have to pass all the exams and reach all the same standards as those who complete the 'full' course.
This has all been agreed with SRG (ATSSD) and Prospect, so I'm reliably informed.
As to the training at LACC and leap frogging the ab initio ATCO T & D's etc. Well the best guess is that ex-mil should be able to shave 6 to 8 months off of the normal time to obtain a single validation. So if I were a manager, given the rather huge shortfall in trained staff, I know who I would place at the head of the queue to get a bum in a seat ASAP. As to the disadvantage to those others in the training system, well thats something that the managers will have to address.
But then we all know what NATS managers are like!!!

[Arkady]

asdfgh

"...ex-mil (ATCOs) should be able to shave six to eight months off the normal time to gain a single validation."

History has not been kind to experianced ATCOs trying to validate (or re-validate) at LATCC and there is little reason to suppose the situation will be any different at LACC. I believe a good case can be made for "short courses" prior to posting to an operational unit but once there all trainees should be treated equally. That is , requiring the same level of performance during training rather than expecting one individual to out perform others. The only argument for queue jumping a senior ATCO over T&Ds is that he/she earns more and should be made to be productive as soon as possible.

The real authority on this topic would be an ex-mil or airfield ATCO who has gone through the current system to validate at LACC. Are there any out there and how much of the training that you did could be left out?

[BDiONU]

You selectively mis-quoted and missed out the 'Best guess' bit. The time scale quoted was from Big Al himself. There are currently no ex-mil Area ATCO's in the LACC system, although there are a couple of ex-mil aerodrome (and an ex-LJAO at Hurn, although a baby will slow her entry to LACC). This 'fast-track' course is specifically for ex-mil who were LJAO controllers, therefore familiar with London airspace and indeed both candidates are familiar with the LACC HMI. It will indeed be interesting to see how quickly they validate (if they get that far).

At the risk of a 'flaming' I would point out that mil ATCO's are used to moving from unit to unit and are very flexible and adaptable of necessity. I believe that their civil cousins tend to stay put and have that mindset, so moving elsewhere is a 'big thing' and not 'usual'.

[confused atco]

Hi all,
I have seen the notice and i was wondering if anyone can give me details of the roster thet is in use and what the annual leave amount is.
Regards
Confused ATCO