View Full Version : When is the *$%&#@ ban going to be over??!!
Alright
At the risk of stating the obvious it's coming up a year and a half now, and it sure looks from where I sit as though the ban has achieved exactly 0.01% of jack s**t.
I've heard all the arguments for and against and I've long ago made my own mind up, and no I'm not applying while this thing is going on so there's no need for anybody to launch into an enormous great flame war, all I want is a straight answer, preferably in terms of days weeks months or years, as to when I might be able to submit my CV to Cathay without damning my soul to trade union hell forever.
Sir Shiraz
21st Oct 2002, 11:05
Well you sure won't get a sensible answer to THAT question in this place......
;)
hughorgen
21st Oct 2002, 13:45
:D
I ignored the pathetic ban as have 100 plus others. IFALPA and the AOA are just plain wrong !
Don't stuff up your life for the selfish interests of some spoiled and over indulged A scalers ! Get on the seniority list now as you will be here loooooonnnnngggggg after they have left ...
You've worked for it, so take it !
Good Luck !!!:)
;) :p :D
cadence
21st Oct 2002, 15:41
The best part about this thing is if any one of those AOA whiners gives you any grief all you have to do is mention harassment to a manager and the next thing you know, a Captain becomes an FO or an FO gets sacked or whatever. It's amazing how much management hates those AOA guys.
Cypher
22nd Oct 2002, 09:30
Not to take sides on this great flame war, Yes I want in to Cathay as well, no I haven't applied... (too far down the food chain for that!)
but ain't that the sought of thing that the AOA want to try and get rid of, the fact that you can be terminated 'just like that'?
I mean if it's that easy to get rid of employees by the mention of harrassment, wouldn't that mean that the same thing could easily happen to YOU?
Granted the way they went about protesting the point suxs....
6feetunder
22nd Oct 2002, 09:54
but ain't that the sought of thing that the AOA want to try and get rid of, the fact that you can be terminated 'just like that'?
Ask a 49er. It didn't even take harassment complaints to get rid of them, just a meeting of 25 managers with no records or minutes.
Hmmm... makes you wonder how they remembered all those names...
FlexibleResponse
23rd Oct 2002, 10:46
Cadence said:It's amazing how much management hates those AOA guys.
One wonders if this is proffered as the new definition of the perfect boss?
backspace
23rd Oct 2002, 12:07
Cypher,
Thats the way things are these days. Industrial protection is very limited, even in Aus. Why do you think that there are more and more casual and contract jobs these days. One reason, so that employers can get rid of employees easily and they have no recourse.
The only way you can provide employees with some sort of protection is to have a strong and united union/association or whatever else you want to call it. Unfortunately this wont be the case with the AOA as their membership is diluted with each new joiner and with each exisiting member that pulls out of the association.
IMHO I think it is time for the AOA to drop the ban and allow all to rejoin/join and develop a new course of action and do it as a united group.
BTW I am not a CX employee and I do believe that the company could have handled the situation in a better way than they did with the 49ers.
funny how aviation resembles russian roulette sometimes...
you can take all the bullets out the revolver, but someone can still beat you to death with it...
thegypsy
1st Nov 2002, 08:02
What anyone joining as an expat in any Airline whether it be Cathay SIA Gulf Air Emirates etc etc needs to understand very clearly indeed is that anyone can be terminated at just 3 months notice and no reason has to given, so think very carefully if leaving a country where you have some employment protection,cos there is none anywhere in the expat world.
EMB Bras
1st Nov 2002, 08:21
The Gypsy,
Do you really want to have the words Job Protection and Airline in the same sentence??
The way things are these days, being terminated on 3 months notice is the least of our worries.
18 months ago we saw how quickly things changed in the airline biz and we all remember how many airlines folded leaving thousands of airline employees out of work.
Job protection you say??? Not in aviation.
BlueEagle
1st Nov 2002, 09:13
I think if a study of the statistics was done it would emerge that over the past eighteen months more people have been laid-off whilst employed on their own home turf than those in the expatriate world.
It could be argued that the expatriate world, even with it's contract terms, is more secure than staying at home!:)
shortly
2nd Nov 2002, 09:41
That's the zillion dollar question. They are hoping to have labour laws of the expatriates home countries to be deemed relevant in their (the expats) place of work ie Hong Kong. Most of the cases are still stalled around the vexing issue of jurisdiction. The AOA's position is that the 49ers were fired for industrial reasons and therefore their terminations were unreasonable. The company stands on the labour laws of Hong Kong and their contracts with their workers which (in Hong Kong) legally allows them to terminate workers on three months notice or with payment in lieu of notice for no reason. Going to line the pockets of more blood sucking low life lawyers and not achieve much else. Whatever the outcomes the company will not take back any of the 49ers now. Should the AOA win the case/s, for the rest of us at CX it will probably mean a new batch of contracts much more tightly written and not so generous as at present. Everybody will lose from this sorry fiasco.
Shortly, Once again I cannot agree with your comments. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that when treated unfairly (and possibly illegally)you should immediately give in as otherwise you will be given a new contract that will make the unfairness (and any illegality) fair so there is no point ever complaining. Of course Hitler changed the laws but despite that people fought for justice!
Lets just wait and see what is declared legal and fair, not forgetting of course that one judge has declared previously that a contract was binding in honour only. At least I can look at myself in the mirror and tell my children what is right and honest.
shortly
3rd Nov 2002, 03:12
Busy B, I am glad you can look in the mirror. Don't quite follow you though, bit of a circular argument. We are employed from Hong Kong by a Hong Kong company and therefore subject to the laws of Hong Kong - whether we like them or not. I cannot see the rationale in the hope that this company will cave because some Judge somewhere thinks the company has been unreasonable. The dispute should have ended an aeon ago, before the 49er situation occurred. Scargill remember? We all knew the rules, including the three month one. The AOA was prepared to gamble by upping the ante and this situation is the predictable result. There are lots of unreasonable labour laws both here and OS. In a more democratic environment we would hope the pollies would become involved and fix the situation - I don't think lol. But back to the ban, hasn't worked, won't work and is only weakening an already weak AOA position. Looked like a stupid idea, has proven to be a stupid idea, ergo was a stupid idea. All courses full till late next year, company rolling in dosh, loads great and OTP on the ball. The company will keep procrastinating on the court cases until they are even less relevant than they are now. A possible scenario, the company settles out of court if they think they are losing. Then they tighten up their somewhat lose contracts with us and all in their favour. Most will sign and the company will keep making great profits. The 49ers won't come home and the AOA will be a weaker force than it ever has been before. Some strategy.
pilotabroad
5th Nov 2002, 10:42
I don't think the AOA has the slightest idea of when the stupid and ineffective employment ban, or the subs at 4% will end.
Their only hope is with the court cases. Which I think the AOA will lose - the company has better lawyers.
The AOA don't have (and never had) the strength to undertake effective industrial action.
For whatever reason they failed to reach a negotiated settlement (I think due to greed and ego on the part of the AOA).
So it is a legal victory or total failure.
My advice re the ban: Take the job.
About job security: Do your best to make your airline the best. Without pax handing over the $, the share holders don't get their returns and sooner or later the company will restructure (with cuts) or fail. At the end of the day the business must make $. Turnball and co have been very good at this, therefore my job at CX is safe. It is only the AOA who are putting it at risk.
boofta
8th Nov 2002, 14:43
The only effect the ban is achieving, is the continuing unemployment of the 49'ers.
Maybe a secondary effect is the
slow destruction of the AOA.
I know this sounds like the worst doomsday scenario, but it's true.
There have been too many ex Ansett pilots up for interview,
most of them already BLACK BANNED by IFALPA from 1989.
The ban will not stop recruitment, it only stops any
chance of a settlement. The court cases may give some of the
49'ers some compensation, but nothing else. A court victory will
not change a single aspect of contract or labour laws anywhere.
The court cases MAY possibly give SOME individuals a form of compensation.
The overall situation will not change unless a
properly negotiated settlement occurs. The AOA dream of a
legally imposed settlement is just that.
When the AOA finally expires, I would like to suggest a new
association called the AOB be formed. The letters would stand
for Aircrew Officer's Brotherhood. Later, the AOC, AOD etc. make
up your own names.
The truth hurts, but needs to be grasped.
shortly
9th Nov 2002, 01:43
AOP would be more politically correct - Aircrew Officers Personhood.
Full_Burner
9th Nov 2002, 06:11
POA Powerless Aircrew Officers ??
Why would anybody want to join an airline where the management treats their pilots like crap, & that means ALL pilots, whether you be A scale, B scale, new joiner, whoever. These managers will do to you as they have done to others. It's just a matter of time.
Don't join now & then come bleating when they try it on you a bit later, because it WILL happen.
We're trying to get this fixed for everyone. That means those here now & those in the future.
You think we're going through this for the fun of it ?
backspace
12th Nov 2002, 07:59
Ok AACE I'll bite.
Given that the Recruitment Ban is not working and, it appears, will never work why don't you let the new joiners join the AOA and contribute to the cause rather than alienate them and dilute the AOA membership.
BMM389EC
12th Nov 2002, 08:49
AACE. May I ask what exactly is been done? As mentioned by backspace the ban is not working and apart from that it does not appear as if the AOA is doing much. Very difficult to turn down a job when the people asking you to turn down the job are not doing anything themselves. The ban is almost a year and a half old now and doesnt look like coming to an end soon.
How do you know the ban is not working ?
Please enlighten me.
backspace
14th Nov 2002, 03:55
Well, we hear that the intake courses are full.
Is this propoganda or the truth?
If it is the truth then this must mean that the ban isn't working. Or have I missed something?
Full of what though.
Training dept is seriously worried about the standard.
This will all be concluded one way or another at some stage.
That is a given.
Why come now & negate one of the few industrial tools we have to try and get a worth while contract that protects ALL (that includes new joiners).
Don't come here and then start whining a few years later when your being shafted by a new set of managers with a reputation to prove. It WILL happen unless this is sorted now.
Why make it hard for us.
This is more important for you than for me, as you will suffer the rath of these mangers or their successors a lot longer than I will.
Think about it.
Please answer the original question I asked.
Why would you want to come and work for a company that treats it's pilots like crap and will continue to do so until they know they can't.
Why ?
It absolutely mystifies me.
Wizofoz
14th Nov 2002, 06:22
The same reason you STAY in an airline that "treats it's pilots like crap."
The same reason most of the '49ers want to RETURN to an airline that "treats it's pilots like crap."
It's better than GA and beats the HELL out of unemployment!
fire wall
14th Nov 2002, 10:54
Training department is seriously worried about what?????
The intakes I know of personally of in the last 12 months for both FO and SO positions included: 2 A320 Captains with serious jet command time, 4 A320 FO's with again big jet time, 1 767 Captain with 7000 hrs on type, 1 767 FO with 4 years on type, 1 L1011 RAF Captain who also held the rank of squadron leader, 1 747 FO with 3000 hrs on type, 2 RAF Roulettes instructors, 3 767 FO's from Britannia Germany......and the list goes on.
Just how does this compare to the experience levels of the intakes of SO's from 1996-2000 who held Cessna/Beech Baron and Navaho ratings on entry. Granted the GA guys may have been outstanding but please cut the crap. The training department has never had higher quality applicants to work with on the whole for the last 10 years as a result of the downturn in the industry worldwide and our short sighted union insisting that no one come to CX....what a joke.
Obviously AACE you are no trng Captain hence your "intelligence" is somewhat off the ball.
Kubota
15th Nov 2002, 06:20
The training department has never had higher quality applicants to work with
Funny thing that...exactly what they said about our ASL "colleagues" when they were recruited...strange that 7 years on the attrition rate of ASL "aces" is about 80%. Most were terminated for incompetence or misrepresentation (lying, P51 time, failing ratings and line checks). FACT.
Personally, I have already flown with some of your mates. I have my doubts as to their longevity in Cathay as they were clearly out of their depth to the point of being a hindrance.
nudger
15th Nov 2002, 09:35
*
BlunderBus
7th Dec 2002, 20:36
You guys will be amoungst the loudest whingers when it comes time for an f/o upgrade...ask those in front of you...upgrades 'deferred' for no reason other than paying you 10,000/month less while you remain a jfo..same job less dough! you'll all get yours eventually...the big boys upstairs will crap all over you!!!!
ironbutt57
7th Dec 2002, 20:51
The ban is "effectively over" it has never been effective to begin with..the trng dept at CX is comprised of professionals...do what you must based on facts, not what you read on these pages...it s after all...a RUMOUR network..........ok Kaptin M...let's hear it:D :D :D :cool: