Pre FIC course requirements

[GoneWest]

Give 'us yer opinion on an argument, would'ya??

One person says that to attend an FIC course as a student in order to gain an FI(R) rating you must have passed all the commercial written examinations (as per a CPL wannabe).

Same person also wears blind it says so in LASORS and JAR FCL1.

The FIC instructor (who is also an FIE) says - with reference to his own examiners handbook) - that this is not the case, and you can attend the course, and have an FI(R) added to your PPL, without sitting the writtens. (Of course, you could not be paid for tuition given).

Your opinion...or interpretation of the rules???

[juggernaut]

Your FIC instructor is correct, CPL knowledge is only required if you wish to fly for hire and reward. I am an FIC instructor and I have never yet met anyone who is willing to do 100 hours p1, 200TT and pay upwards of £5000 to do a course, at least 5 weeks off work and then not be able to be paid for their efforts, as for Lasors, there are many mistakes in this manual and the examiners handbook is correct, anyone actually know of any PPL instructors?

[GoneWest]

Interesting - I am aware of two owners of U.S. flight schools who asked to have an FI(R) rating added to their PPL's - both were told, by the CAA, that they had to have passed all the writtens.

One attended a distance leraning and brush up course with Oxford - the other started with PPSC (just before they went bust).

The first of those two - has spent in the region of US$25,000 (twenty five thousand dollars) to gain the qualification as a JAA FI(R)...which includes the mandatory written exams (though he also did a JAA professional licence as a result).

[GoneWest]

Just had two e-mails arrive - one from the CAA and one from an FIC establishment...........both say that you DO need to do the written exams.

The matter of being paid for it rests solely on the licence (CPL or PPL) not on the technical knowledge of the holder.

Still listening to answers though - wonder how many agre with Juggernaut and the local FIC man - they may still prove to be correct.............but how do we get into this situation??

[Mark 1]

Its all quite specific in JAR 1.335 (available on-line) that a pre-requisite is :

(b) met the knowledge requirements for a CPL(A) as set out in AMC FCL 1.470(b);

They accept the old UK CPL or BCPL exam passes if non-expired, which didn't require you to have approved training, though these exams are no longer available.
I found 3 months of spare time reading to be sufficient to pass the exams.

[GoneWest]

Mark 1 - in my own opinion, I agree with you - however, Juggernaut is the second FIC instructor to say "not required".

Maybe they, at one of their FIC seminars, have been told differently.

[Stan Evil]

Mark 1 is 100% correct. You must now have CPL knowledge to get an FI(R) rating. The UK generally requires exactly what the JARs require. What muddies the water is that there exist 'grandfather rights' BCPL holders with FI ratings without 'CPL knowledge' because this used to be possible well before JAA was thought of.

[StrateandLevel]

The Examiner Handbook is not the place to look for pre-course entry requirements. You only have to look at Instructor Form 1 completed by the FIE on the initial test to see that the CPL knowledge requirement must be entered at item 8.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1131.pdf

There is of course a situation (App 1 to JAR-FCL 1.300) where holders of a non-JAR-FCL licence with instructor rating can qualify to teach for a JAR-FCL licence by completing the FIC cource and passing a test with an FIE. They need ICAO CPL knowledge but not JAA CPL knowledge. It could be argued that such a person by virtue of holding a JAR-FCL PPL has disqualified themselves from App 1 to JAR-FCL1.300. In any event they would not qualify for a FI raing on the JAR-FCL PPL.

[Irv]

I think you've hit on the point that has kept many experienced PPLs out of instructing - the need to demonstrate CPL knowledge - eg: CPL ground exams or 'better'. However, I think the CPL ground exams were a pre-req long ebfore JAR, or at least in the early 90s. At that time, once you'd done the 10 and 6' grouping of the old CPL exams, you suddenly suspected that the Class 1 medical at the start of the process was actually to see if you were fit enough to do the ground exams. :D
The 'interesting' bit about the JAR pre-FIC course requirements must have been the discussions around the JAA table leading to them - a real committee award effort by the look of it! :rolleyes:

[StrateandLevel]

The CPL knowledge is an ICAO requirenent and has been for many years. The UK did not comply till about 1989.

[juggernaut]

One of our instructors has a PPL only and is a professional instructor of some years, in the early years (1980) the requirements were 150 hours and IMC to become an instructor, e.g. no CPL requirement. The course was 28 hours flying and 40 hours groundschool. These people now operate on grandfather rights and I am sure many are still active. Any others out there that you know about?
Why do professional microlight and gliding instructors not need to have CPL knowledge? why do we have to sit unnecessary exams?
At least I know which way to screw the latitude nut in the southern hemisphere and how to swing a compass for example.

[GoneWest]

Juggernaut - although not currently active as an instructor - I AM one of those 1980's PPL people.

As an aside - has the reading of this thread actually changed your view on the CPL knowledge question - or do you still believe you original answer to be correct?

I'm only curious. E-mail the answer if you prefer.