PDA

View Full Version : Glider PPL (I dont understand this)


Piper Warrior Pilot
16th Oct 2002, 13:48
As well as doing my fixed wing PPL on warriors, i am starting my glider PPL next week, as long as the weather holds off.

What i dont understand is the fact that you can do your glider PPL on a Grob 109B which is just a single engined aircraft basically. They state that it uses the engine for taxying and climbing and then switcxhes off the engine and glides back down.

What is the difference between this and a warrior. Surely you could just not switch the engine off and then fly around and land it normally like a single engined plane.

What i am trying to ask is, if i did my glider PPL on this why would it not count as a normal PPL due to the fact that it has an engine.

Weird???

Fly Stimulator
16th Oct 2002, 14:12
I've never flown a motor glider, only the ordinary kind, so I'm not sure what level of instrumentation they have.

Are they equipped to cover the instrument and radio nav parts of the PPL syllabus? If not, that's probably part of the reason you can't get a GrpA PPL on them, as well as the requirements for public C of A etc.

You might be able to save money by doing the PPL first and then cross-crediting to the NPPL with SLMG rating.

Piper Warrior Pilot
16th Oct 2002, 14:19
So i could do a PPL on a motorglider, then after that cross to the NPPL then do some more training and get a PPL (A)?

Im not looking for the best ways to save money for a PPL, i couldnt care how much it costed, that answers a question which someone posted on another of my threads.

Thanks Flightstimulator

Fly Stimulator
16th Oct 2002, 15:46
So i could do a PPL on a motorglider, then after that cross to the NPPL then do some more training and get a PPL (A)?

You could certainly get an NPPL with SLMG rating first and then go on to the JAR PPL. Beware of a catch when it comes to counting NPPL hours towards the JAR licence though. If all your NPPL training is carried out by a JAR flight instructor, at a CAA-registered training facility, then you get a 30-hour credit towards the JAR licence. If not, then you don't get this concession.

See the NPPL information site at www.nppl.uk.com (http://www.nppl.uk.com)


I don't know if there is any form of motor glider licence now apart from the NPPL. The old microlight licence has been completely replaced by the NPPL, but I don't know if the same applies to the SLMG world.


Im not looking for the best ways to save money for a PPL, i couldnt care how much it costed,

Lucky man!

Stan Evil
16th Oct 2002, 20:23
PWP There's more to this than you seem to have heard so far. There are possibilities both under JAA and NPPL.

JAA PPL

You can train for a PPL SEP (single engine piston ie PA28 etc) or for a PPL TMG (touring motor glider ie Grob 109, T-67). Once you have either of these you only need to undergo class rating training and a skill test to add TMG to SEP or vice-versa. Class rating training is 'as long as it takes' and the skill test is 40 minutes of GH and circuits. In the UK a TMG rating will allow you to fly SLMGs (such as Stemme S10) as well.

NPPL

You can train for a NPPL on certain SEP or on SLMG (which, this time, include TMGs). You then need differences training to add SEP to the SLMG or vice versa. As Fly Stimulator says, you need to be careful about what, where and with whom if you want to convert subsequently to a JAA PPL.

bingoboy
16th Oct 2002, 20:30
My how quaint of you PWP to be seeking sense in a system which is just becoming more and more complex.

Best to assume that logic and reasoning are not present then you won't get aggravated; confused maybe but not aggravated.

Lucky money is not an issue. Best of luck whichever way you go - I think probably the glider/motorglider route first has more chance of making you a better pilot. But what do I know.

Piper Warrior Pilot
16th Oct 2002, 21:13
So if i do my PPL on a TMG, then once ive got that do a class rating on the PA-28. Then i will end up with a TMG PPL and a Fixed Wing PA-28 PPL?

Sensible
17th Oct 2002, 01:46
Much better to do your PPL for SE Land (a Cessna or Piper) then do a test in a motor glider. The glider is different to fly than a normal aircraft and I really believe that it's easier to start from scratch and stay with the same aircraft type from scratch through to PPL and then try diffent types of aircraft including motor gliders. The PPL SE Land covers motor gliders as well although you will need a check out on a motor glider by a CAA examiner who will stamp your log book to the effect that he thinks you are competent to fly one. Glider air brakes sure are different to flaps!

Piper Warrior Pilot
17th Oct 2002, 06:40
I am having family dificulties at the moment and so i think it is not going to be possible to do the PPL SE on a Warrior. I was therefore thinking that if i could do a PPL on a motorglider, then after i get that do a class rating on a warrior and then i would end up with two PPL's esentiaslly.

I believe the time taken for my class rating on the warrior would be less also, due to the fact that i have quite a lot of experience of the aircraft.

If anyone could tell me whether or not it is possible to do it this way, it would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

StrateandLevel
17th Oct 2002, 07:04
As others have said take care here because out of the NPPL comes beaurocracy beyond belief.

There are two motor glider ratings. TMG which is a JAA rating and which can easily be added to a JAA licence. There are very few schools equipped to train for this rating which requires a minimum of 45 hours, a Public Transport C of A and a licensed aerodrome.

Then comes the SLMG rating, a National rating which is now part of the NPPL. This is conducted under the auspices of the BGA at unlicensed aerodromes. It is much cheaper, more readily available and requires only 32 hours.

Now to convert your NPPL (SLMG) to a NPPL (SEP) rating, you only need differences training. There is no test according to the NPPL Website. This means you can acquire a SEP rating to carry up to 3 passengers without having been near a JAA instructor or Examiner (other than for the undefined differences training).

To convert you NPPL to a JAA PPL will then require 25 hours with a JAA instructor.

Piper Warrior Pilot
17th Oct 2002, 07:28
The Northumbria Gliding Club website states that training in the motorglider is 65p per minute which is 36 pounds an hour or there abouts. Will this price include an instructor or is that price just for the plane?

Piper Warrior Pilot
17th Oct 2002, 13:31
Anyone know???

:)

EKKL
17th Oct 2002, 14:21
So let me get this straight. You have financial problems so have decided its too expensive for a ppl so now trying gliding to get a 'ppl'. What was it AerBabe said in a previous thread. Sums it all up in one.
Wy do you call yourself 'Piper Warrior Pilot' when you are not even one :confused: What next, 'Grob Glider Pilot(nearly, sort of, well not exactly)?

Piper Warrior Pilot
17th Oct 2002, 14:29
Theres no need to take the ****. Im asking a question and i dont expect to get witty answers back.

Its true what they say about people on here. The majority are kind and helpful but you do get the odd one.

Why do you call yourself EKKL?

Why do some people call themselves Jumbo Pilot when they're not even pilots themselves.

Its not that its too expensive its just that some problems have arisen and i cant do my PPL (A) yet, so i was looking into maybe getting a SLMG or TMG PPL instead at the moment.

So as for your sarcastic coments, if you've got nothing constructive to say EKKL, then dont say anything at all!

Thankyou to everybody else for their constructive coments, its been appreciated and if anyone does know whether or not it would be possible fo me to get a SLMG PPL or TMG PPL and then convert to PPL (A) please let me know.

Regards

28thJuly2001
17th Oct 2002, 15:10
PWP,
Firstly, I am not having pop at you but let me get this straight, a few days ago you were asking about training in a Seneca at £215 per hour, now you are asking about training in a motor-glider at £36 per hour.
What next? The nearest radio controlled club.
You have also been 'just about to start training' for months now.
Take the advice I gave you a few months ago, it is not a race to get the PPL and the training should be enjoyed, it is also STILL very expensive to remain a current PPL, say £100+ a month which is a lot of cash to a 16 year old.
Do the motor-gliding, but only because it is FUN, CHEAP and not as the start of a glittering career.

Walt,,

Piper Warrior Pilot
17th Oct 2002, 15:15
Thankyou, but does anyone know whether or not i can convert to a PPL (A) from a SLMG or TMG PPL?

I know how this all sounds but its a long story about why i cant do my PPL (A) straight away at the moment, long and complicated.

28thJuly2001
17th Oct 2002, 15:26
So wait then !!!!!!!!
You are only 16 for pete's sake, another year or two is not going to make a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things. I was 31 and financially secure (sort of) before I even THOUGHT of doing my PPL;) . I have heared of people who started there training older than me and now fly commercially.

Walt,,

Piper Warrior Pilot
17th Oct 2002, 15:30
I am not waiting, i have had 2 lessons, spent 300 pounds on equipment and then my dad has said that i can only have one lesson a month which i told him was impractical, and i can afford two but he wont let me.

I was planning on getting my PPL in time for finishing college, then getting a professional studies loan and paying for hour building and CPL.

I need to know whether or not i can convert a SLMG PPL or TMG PPL into a PPL (A).

I have the flying bug, another two years of waiting will kill me................well not literally but you get my drift.

Sensible
17th Oct 2002, 16:07
Just a suggestion, look out for a gliding club near you, the cost of gliding is substantially less than power flying and it will also make you a better pilot. Glider flying is real flying and is altogether different than being dragged along behind a fan. You will be a better pilot for it! Once you find that you have more funds, get yourself into motor flying. Most gliding clubs have a motor glider and the big upside is that you don't pay for instructor time at gliding clubs - its voluntary work!

bottieburp
17th Oct 2002, 17:33
Dear PWP - You are fortunate indeed as a 16 year old kid to get such advice to your wide and varied questions.

THere is a little more relevance to my handle than yours I'm afraid....

I can't think of a better aircraft to look forward to flying than the Grob 109b. If you aren't in the ATC you should be.

You will learn so much more in a motorglider than a fresh spamcan PPL - stick and rudder skills, tailwheel, gliding - all these will give you such a good start.

THe 109b - identical to the RAF Vigilant - will fly at 95kts for 700+ miles, sipping only 12-15 litres of fuel an hour - all in wonderful comfort. Gorgeous aircraft.

So - get yourself along to your nearest ATC squadron, bull your boots, keep your hair short, attend regularly and study for all the badges. Before you know it - you will have yourself a Flying Scholarship.

If you go to Uni - make sure they have a University Air Squadron.

I lacked direction as a 16 year old and fell into girlies, motorbikes and booze. I don't ride motorbikes anymore and still lack direction.

Bottie

Piper Warrior Pilot
17th Oct 2002, 18:47
So back to the topic at hand, does anyone have an answer? lol

28thJuly2001
17th Oct 2002, 18:53
What was the question?:D :p :D

Walt,,

Piper Warrior Pilot
17th Oct 2002, 19:02
If i get a SLMG PPL or a TMG PPL could i convert it to a PPL (A) with a calss rating and skills test or something/

chrisN
17th Oct 2002, 19:05
Re Northuimbria and gliding clubs generally, the only way to get good information is to ask them directly.

As a general rule, prices per minute quoted are for their full flying members to use the club gliders or motor glider, and the instruction is mostly at weekends by volunteers so no extra charge. To be a full flying member you have to pay their membership fees, also as shown on their website.

BUT - what they offer is probably not what you want. Most gliding glubs which have motor gliders and quote fees per minute for them are using them for GLIDING instruction, not motor gliding tuition. The instructor would typically have a GLIDING instructor rating, and an SLMG PPL - a combination which allows for teaching gliding exercises in the SLMG, but does not permit one to teach SLMG flying for an SLGM licence.

Many gliding clubs also run midweek courses. In these, there is usually a fixed fee for the course, which includes both hire fees for gliders (and motor gliders if used) and costs of paying for a professional instructor.

To find if Northumbria GC, or any other GC, provide what you want, you will have to ask them.

The only place I have experience of for SLMG tuition was Enstone years ago. I did a conversion/extra rating for what was then PPL goup D, having done a PPL A. I believe they still have an SLMG operation there.

A_Pommie
17th Oct 2002, 19:38
PWP

The answer is yes you can convert a TMG/SLMG rating into pplA. You may get your hours credited you may not. The number of hours you get credited may not be as many as you would like. If as you say have caught the flying bug then fly what ever you can.
You say your dad will only let you fly 1 hour a month and that this is not practical. In what way is this not practical? It might not be the most cost effective way to go but if he's paying why are you complaining. 1 hour a month will take you longer than flying more often but it's still flying.

Piper Warrior Pilot
17th Oct 2002, 20:06
Thats just the thing, its me whos paying for the lessons, not him, so i dont understand why he will only allow me to have one lesson a month

kabz
18th Oct 2002, 02:11
Dunno how you could manage only flying once a month. I would lower my sights from a PPL(A) and try and go gliding once a week.

Show up, help out, and you never know, people might try and help you out with a little airplane time.

Good luck. BTW, after 100+ hours I still have my hands full with a 172 doing approaches under the hood.

152 is a good cheap slow plane for doing your PPL. After all, it's not distance you log, it's hours !

StrateandLevel
18th Oct 2002, 12:00
If you have a TMG rating then you already have a JAA PPL. To add a SEP Class rating to that PPL you do sufficient training to pass the SEP Class Rating Test. All quite simple.

If you have a SLMG PPL then that is now a NPPL and you will have to do lots more to get your JAA PPL with a SEP Class Rating i.e. all of the exams, 30 hours training and an initial issue Skill Test.

There was a SLMG + 75 hours conversion for pre JAR pilots holding a UK PPL but that won't apply to the NPPL.

If you have a SLMG NPPL to add a SEP Class to the NPPL you just do differences training. This is the easiest and cheapest option but won't get you a JAA PPL.

If you want to spend a lot of your future flying, the JAA PPL is the only route. A TMG rating will not be any cheaper than a SEP rating.

Carlito
18th Oct 2002, 12:52
PWP,
You pay for the lessons. Your dad only allows you one lesson a month.
Has he singled out JAA PPL lessons?
Has he said you can have more than one motorglider lesson a month?
Has he said you can have more that one lesson a month if you do a NPPL instead of a JAA one?
Surely since cost is not a problem and parental approval is, why do you think switching from an expensive flying lesson to a cheap flying lesson is going to change anything dad-wise?

Carlito

Genghis the Engineer
18th Oct 2002, 13:20
Sounds like you should discuss this with your Dad rather than here?

Or failing that, book 2 hour lessons.

G

MLS-12D
18th Oct 2002, 16:40
Excellent posts, Carlito and Genghis.

It is hell to be a teenager; I wouldn't want to go through that again! But PWP, the fact remains that for the time being you have to live with your Dad and do things according to his rules. Rightly or wrongly, many parents wouldn't allow their children to take lessons at all ("too dangerous", "you need to concentrate on your schoolwork", etc.). If Dad is prepared to live with one hour a month, that's certainly better than nothing.

I agree with the suggestion that you should join the ATC.:)

Piper Warrior Pilot
18th Oct 2002, 18:33
I have managed to get things sorted out. I will be habing one a month for the first couple of months just so i can prove to my dad that im serious about it.

Then i will get one every two weeks.

I know it sounds as if i have been going to start my lessons for the past couple of months now but it has been hell trying to get lessons booked at the flying school. I went in at the end of last month and the earliest i could get on a weekend when im free was Sunday November 3rd. So, not long now.

I got all my equipment and now im just waiting for the first lesson, i cant wiat.

Carlito
21st Oct 2002, 08:28
You've had problems getting bookings at the club. A common problem. Once they know your face, that'll get easier, especially if you get a regular slot and show up each time.
One thing I'll gaurantee you. You'll be cancelled a lot, weather, tech, double bookings etc. So there will be more disappointments. Don't lose heart because you don't get your once a month or twice a month lesson every time.
At this time of the year you'll be lucky to fly in 50% of your booked slots.

Don't worry: There are fantastic crisp, clear winter days where weather is perfect for flying ( as long as you wrap up well for the walkaround) and come next spring and summer you'll be solo or ready for it, then you have the summer months to enjoy cross countries.

Remember to enjoy it!

Carlito

notbefore9
21st Oct 2002, 13:25
There have been a couple of replies here that should have provided you with enough information to be able to achieve a level of experience at a very low cost ie via the ATC but you seem to have studiously ignored these suggestions, and instead tried find an answer that was able to provide you with a quick fix to your "problem".

As a gliding instructor I often started courses by explaining to students that being very apprehensive about flying was normal . at the start but much of the unease would dissapear with experience. I was always very careful to add that when the day came and they could get into the aircraft with absolutely certainty that nothing could go wrong it was time to take up golf or fishing or something where being in a hurry is not a shortcut to you or some innocent dying too quickly. Reading back through your replies to other posts I hope I am reading the situation wrongly and that you are in fact starting out on a hobby/pastime/future in which you will excel and not on some mission to prove you can do this very quickly at all costs.;) ;)

EKKL
23rd Nov 2005, 20:57
Piper Warrior Pilot Have you got your PPL yet? :)

Kolibear
24th Nov 2005, 07:01
As his last post was back in March 2003, somehow, I doubt that you'll get an answer.

I wish I'd had his confidence to take two lessons & then spend £300 on 'all the equipment'.

AerBabe
24th Nov 2005, 07:54
I wish I could remember what I said on another thread, that was so deep and meaningful. :D

EKKL - What made you drag this up from the depths?!