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Evo
14th Oct 2002, 09:05
Just been reading through the "how long to solo" thread, and it made me wonder how well people are trained to cope if things go wrong. Two rare, but not very rare, scenarios:

You take off, turn crosswind and check the T's and P's - oil pressure is reading zero.

You are just about to call downwind when a landing aircraft bounces, lands on the nosewheel and comes to a halt blocking the main runway. You can still land on the other runway, but that has 12kts of crosswind, or you can divert.

To be really nasty, you could combine the two - you divert, but en-route you notice the oil pressure dropping. Not your lucky day...

Could you cope? I had this conversation with an instructor - he went solo after 6 hours, had to go around from his first approach and admitted that he would not have had a chance if something had gone wrong. As a result, he wasn't going to send anyone solo unless they could deal with the above problems. I had 10 hours before I even did a circuit (including overhead joins, how to find a nearby aerodrome, and basic PFLs - and although I doubt that I could have done a good PFL it was better than nothing) and before solo (18 hours) I had done plenty of EFATOs (and EFs on short final) and a couple of glide and crosswind circuits. Could I have coped? Maybe. Thought so at the time, less certain now... :)

jonathang
14th Oct 2002, 09:25
I kinda of a agree with you , but you have to do it sometime.

If you are in the circuit at 1000ft you should beable to make the field no matter which position you are in. Maybe not into wind but who cares as long as long as you are safe.

And lets face it got to be very unlucky during first solo.

Kirstey
14th Oct 2002, 09:25
Well if I had "plane trouble" and a broken plane on the runway on my solo - i'd consider a new hobby! Seriously, with 0 pressure it would just be case of declaring a mayday and getting down in the airfield boundary! prefereably on a clear runway, failing that over/behind the aircraft on the main runway, failing that somewhere clear of stuff on the field itself.

I had a plane with an engine failure during my 1st solo, fortunatly I was on the ramp still, so just waited well the guy force landed onto the main runway (lucky git!)

If my plane was fine, and there was a broken one on the runway, I guess It'd be a case of leaving the circuit and holding somewhere, gogo juice permitting

skyraider
14th Oct 2002, 10:43
like kirstey said, do what it takes to get it in on the airfield. If you suddenly have no oil pressure, you are an emergency about to happen. For myself I would land next to the runway or on the taxi way... somewhere... you dont have a choice in the matter because the donkey could quit at any moment.

Every instructor that I have met is VERY aware of where their student is at any time that they are not in the aircraft. If you could hold in the circuit, I would definitely bet that they would be very well aware that you are a first time solo student and would be making every effort to clear the runway for you. If they couldn't, you can bet that they would get a plane up in the air to lead you to a diversion field and this would be decided quickly.

The main thing to remember as a first solo is that you are NEVER alone ! ! ! ! ! !

I can't emphasize this enough. They will follow you around every inch of the circuit on the radio and visually.

If you have a problem then all you have to do is keep flying and they will help you to decide what to do.

If you have an engine failure.. well like jonathang says you should be able to glide to the field and you already know how to land otherwise you would be up there. I realise that a PFL at this stage is a bit of a challenge but all you want is to walk away... If the aerie gets bent and bugg@red, thats ok as long as your are in one piece.

cheers
Sky

Who has control?
14th Oct 2002, 10:54
There was an instance of a young lady on her first solo who had such an experience.

An aircraft blocked the runway while she was in the circuit and she ended up with a first solo that lasted over 2 hours.

It was reported recently as a 'I learnt about flying from that' article

BlueRobin
14th Oct 2002, 10:55
The biggest barrier to your first solo is not the flight itself, i.e. a physical one, but more a psychological one in that you must overcome the "what-ifs". I had the same problem when my first solso came. Between the instructor jumping out and me taking off, I had to block the "what-ifs" out of my mind lest I fluff the checklist and hence potentially jepordise my safety. Ultimately, you must have faith in your low time experience (scary), the aeroplane and fate itself

On my 1st solo, I can tell you that:

a) I swore my head off just after becoming airborne and yes, I did double-check my thumb was off the PTT switch :D
b) I didn't do my post-takeoff check and left my flaps down until well onto the x-wind leg
c) in the flare, she became very nose up, bounced slightly but she came down okay after that

I believe that one one eastern european country, after a student does his 1st solo, the custom is for the student to have his *rse kicked by the assembled masses in the club :eek:

Whirlybird
14th Oct 2002, 11:20
I think this is an EXTREMELY good point.

Emergencies can and do happen, particularly the blocked runway scenario. Some of us learn at one runway airfields; I learned at Welshpool, and my GFT lasted for ages because a student crashed (he was unhurt) and the runway was blocked, and we had no option but to divert or keep flying; I did lots of circles around Long Mountain and heard lots of stories from the examiner. It COULD happen. I think at the very least students should have practised PFLs, including EFATO, before first solo. Yes, someone could lead you to another airfield; they can't land the aircraft for you.

When I did my first helicopter solo, we certainly practised autorotations first. And I do wonder how many of these pre 10 hour solo pilots have done enough of that sort of training. I never worried at the time. Now I know more.

knobbygb
14th Oct 2002, 11:31
On my first solo, I spent five minutes on the ground before the instructor climbed out running all the what-ifs past her. In hindsight I think I was hoping she'd change her mind and not let me go.

We'd spent 30 minutes doing a couple of EFATO's and glide approaches just in case, but I still managed to come up with a huge list of things that could go wrong, including having to divert due to blocked runway, weather, earthquakes etc.

There was nobody else in the circuit and the weather conditions were near perfect. Still, the thing that worried me most was a sudden change of wind direction and therefore runway. Funnily enough the thought that the engine might quit didn't really bother me - if it did I'd just have to deal with it.

The club always arrange for the emergency trucks to be standing by near the runway on a first solo :eek:. This really bothered me. Why was that necessary when I'd just been assured I was up to standard? I'm assured that your first solo landing is one of the best you'll ever do (and it was :confused: ).

Would I have coped with an emergency? Probably.
Would I cope a lot better now (38hrs)? Certainley.

Tee
14th Oct 2002, 11:44
I think there was a chap who had an engine failure on his first solo in a PA38 at Teesside around two years ago. Made a good forced landing into a nearby field and made the front pages of all the local papers.

Evo
14th Oct 2002, 11:47
I know that you do what it takes to get the aeroplane down in a field - but after a very few hours do you even have the basic 'stick and rudder' skills to do that?

You have to go sometime, I agree. I'm not suggesting that you should be able to fly a navex before you solo. However, a few extra hours covering the what-ifs gives a bit more experience in flying the aeroplane, which is helpful in itself, but many times the experience of flying the aeroplane in an 'emergency' - if you solo in a handful of hours how many PFLs or EFATOs can you have done? What about stall/spin avoidance? What about dealing with the dumb things we all do from time to time, like the infamous mixture-heat check downwind (been there, done that). I'm just finding it hard to see how someone learning ab initio can cover this stuff well and still solo in 6 hours. There just isn't time.

Grim Reaper 14
14th Oct 2002, 11:59
I'm pleased to say that when I first managed my solo, I was as sure as I could be that I'd be able to cope with most things. I learned most of my flying in South Africa, and had already done basics of PFL's and EFATO's, together with a couple of touch and go's at the next nearest airfield (massively aiding the 'what do I do if the runway's shut?' scenario).

The downside? It took me close to 20 hours before I went solo, but at least I was in a position to get out of most of the cack-ridden situations that might have occurred. My RT wasn't too bad by then either.

Upside? Nothing happened...:D

skyraider
14th Oct 2002, 12:04
Yes, someone could lead you to another airfield; they can't land the aircraft for you.

If they cant land the aircraft then they shouldn't be up there solo in the first place.

my log book showed that I practiced PFL's and EFATO's in the lessons leading up to my solo and I would think this is common practice.

my point is that if the runway is blocked you have the ability/skill to keep airborne until the problem is solved and if you lose the engine, you have been taught to do a PFL and your instructor should be confident of your ability to land. If you need to damage the aerie to walk away then that is what you do.

Sky

Penguina
14th Oct 2002, 12:59
Who hasn't done a first solo and not thought about this? Before I did mine I used to fantasise about heroically preserving my aircraft on the way into work!

It took me ages to find the right day and I'd done loads of hours compared to most people before I went. I began by worrying about engine failures or blocked runways, but by the time I soloed I was (much more realistically!) concerned about myself managing to land on the nosewheel somehow, or similar. Didn't of course (and yes, it was one of the best landings I've done so far), but I think that the more flying you do, the more you realise that you yourself are the most dangerous thing and, short of the rarer disasters, most situations can be either avoided or dealt with if you have sufficient presence of mind.

WestWind1950
14th Oct 2002, 13:00
@BluleRobin

in Germany after your first solo all fellow flyers that are presen they thrash your rear, at least at most glider clubs that's done, and then you also have to pay for a round of beer for all present :D at Motorclubs you its tradition to have your necktie cut off (you wear one particularly for this occasion... girls too)...unfortunately these "traditions" don't usually work today and are dying out... :(

I remember a day at a small field, bad thunder storms were forcast (big squall line in the west) so we started to pack things in. Suddenly we saw a C150 in the downwind appearing to want to land, but there was no radio contact. He landed safely (this field is a very harmless one) and after him a C 172 landed... both without radio. It appeared that the young fellow in the 152 was on his first solo and, due to the windgusts at his field, was no longer able to land! His instrutor told him to "go east", which he did. The instructor hopped into the 172 and followed him. Luckily they found our field, which is located about 38 nm due east of their home field! The reason for no radio contact: the had no charts on board and thus had no idea what our frequency was!! We put their planes into a hangar before the storm hin and they had to be picked up by car. Me and a friend ferried their planes back home the next day.

keep flying!
WestWind

Crepello
14th Oct 2002, 13:18
Before my first solo, the instructor repeatedly had me go through the emergency procedures. The scenario he most stressed was an engine failure on takeoff. At least if it all goes quiet at pattern altitude, you've a little time to assess your options.

As for the flight, it didn't take long for me to embarass myself. I bade farewell to my instructor, then tried repeatedly to start the engine - having overlooked 'Mixture - FULL RICH' in the checklist... After that, it was easy! ;)

Incidentally, how many pilots had a (slight) hangover when they made their first solo? This seems an oddly common combination...

FlyingForFun
14th Oct 2002, 13:23
Of course I was taught PFLs, EFATO and stall+spin awareness before I went solo. Could I have handled an emergency? Probably, yes, just about.

Now, 200 hours later, I could handle an emergency much better. And in 200 hours time, I hope I'll be able to handle an emergency better than I can now.

There's obviously more risk of a pilot being getting into trouble (whether it be an emergency or a botched landing or encountering traffic at a different speed or anything else) on his or her first solo than any other time, because of lack of experience. Instructors have a duty to ensure that the pilot is prepared for the most likely scenarios, but that can't possibly be a substitute for experience.

If you're not prepared to accept that level of risk, then flying probably isn't the right game for you. But if you're not prepared to realise that there's a risk, and do whatever you can to minimize it, then flying definitely isn't the right game for you.

FFF
--------------

QDMQDMQDM
14th Oct 2002, 14:52
in Germany after your first solo all fellow flyers that are presen they thrash your rear,

Boy, now you're talking! This is particularly fun when all concerned are wearing tight little leather shorts too. :)

QDM

Whirlybird
14th Oct 2002, 16:07
Right, so the concensus appears to be:

1) Most people have done at least some rudimentary preparation for emergencies before their first solo.

2) Everyone thinks they would handle things better now, with more experience.

Of course there has to be a balance. But is there any DISADVANTAGE to a little extra training before going solo.

One thing everyone seems to have left out of the equation is the effects of the unexpected, of information overload, and of time. In an emergency, you're likely to be faced with all three.

You are an inexperienced pilot, expecting to fly one circuit of a familiar airfield. The unexpected - something goes wrong, with the aircraft or the runway. Information overload - YOU have to decide what to do, possibly with help from an instructor on the radio, but that amount of radio chat probably presents overload at that point. Time - whatever happens (apart from an instant emergency landing) your first solo is now likely to be very long, and may terminate with a landing at a very different field, in layout, length, and amount of radio use required, from what you're used to.

I'd say with that possibility, however unlikely, a few extra hours training couldn't be a bad idea.

In fact, now I think about it, don't most accidents involving far more experienced pilots include those three factors? Why else is CFIT so common? Perhaps the syllabus needs to include a lot more on human factors, beyond the daft questions on the ground exams - or have they improved since I took it? No criticism intended, but I do find myself wondering if some of the people posting here have ever been in even a minor "emergency", like an unexpected diversion due to weather, while still having relatively few hours. It's very easy to know what to do on the ground. And of course, we could all do it in the air. Couldn't we....?

skydriller
14th Oct 2002, 16:16
Never had a problem on my First Solo, just remember the little C152 going like a rocket compared to when the instructor was with me!! However, The unexpected does happen during training, Qualifying X-Country? Well, that was fine on the first leg, but on the second leg I arrived at destination to discover the runway temporarily blocked/closed:eek: .... so I diverted to a different aerodrome a bit further away. When I eventually got back to base there was some discussion as to whether or not the flight counted as I had not landed where I had planned to, but eventually the consensus was that it was actually better because I had flown further and had a real live diversion to boot!!

Bluerobin/Westwind...

Here in France we are a little more civilised, at my aeroclub we insist that first solos are completed in the morning so that the student has no excuse for not buying champagne to be consumed by one and all before a celebratory lunch also with beaucoup de vin!!! Such events usually go on all afternoon....:D :D

QNH 1013
14th Oct 2002, 18:28
The fact that there are so few difficulties during first solos suggest to me that the instructors have got it about right. I would however be worried if instructors started to compete with each other on average hours to first solo.

Good advice given to me prior to my first solo:
1. Remember it will go up a lot quicker without me in the aircraft (C152).
2. If you're not happy with the approach, throw it away and go-around. Don't try and land off a poor approach.

I did PFLs, and cross-country Navexs prior to my first solo which was at about 17 hours. I thought this was rather good until I read of the scores of pprune-ers who went solo in less than 10 hours.

FlyingForFun
15th Oct 2002, 08:59
Whirlybird asked:

I do find myself wondering if some of the people posting here have ever been in even a minor "emergency", like an unexpected diversion due to weather, while still having relatively few hours
Yes. Two, in fact.

On my second flight after passing my skills test, I had an alternator failure. I handled it ok, but I still needed a drink to calm the nerves afterwards. Since then, I've been involved in 3 more alternator failures - one as pax, one as PUT and one as observer on a test flight. In all three cases, my extra experience meant I was far more relaxed about the whole thing than I was the first time I experienced it.

I've also had to divert due to weather, with less than 100 hours. Again, I handled it fine, but it wasn't a pleasant experience. I've flown in marginal, deteriorating weather since then, and I've been far more aware of what's going on around me, both in terms of the weather and viable alternates. I haven't had to divert since that time, and I'd like to think that that is, at least partly, because of the lessons I learnt from the first time about staying on the ground if there's any question about the weather. But I also believe that, if I did get caught out by the weather again, I'd be in a better position to be able to make a diversion, and the whole thing would be less stressful.

So I think I'm probably in a position to say that low-hour pilots are capable of handling minor emergencies, but that this capability improves with experience. And I don't know whether "low-hours" extends as far as first solo.

FFF
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Kermit 180
15th Oct 2002, 09:19
In '94 I had an incident when I was in solo consolidation, and another soon afterwards (about 20 hours or so under my belt at the time).

The first was a burst oil line that seeped oil all over my windscreen. Noticing the rising temp and lowering pressure, I remembered my instructor's words and landed. Those words and encouragement to monitor the t's and p's constantly certainly averted a distaster no doubt.

The second was a bee that decided to take a shot in a million and fly straight up my pitot tube on takeoff. Again, thanks to my instructor's persistence in my early training that I fly by attitude, I was able to calmly circuit and land with no real stress, with 30 knots on the clock. :)

Never forgotten my instructor's words of wisdom,and I always make a point of sharing these incidents with my students. My pre-solo brief is also quite comprehensive and thorough as a result of these and other incidents since then.

Kermie

fireflybob
15th Oct 2002, 09:41
A good instructor should not send you on a first solo without taking into account all factors, traffic density in the circuit being one of them.

Yes, all sorts of things might happen but at the end of the day you have to ask yourself whether or not you feel the student is capable of the task.

Finally, perhaps we should also remember that we seem to live in a world where litigation and liability have become more and more significant. If you are sending a student solo and you have not taken reasonable steps to ensure that he can deal with an inflight emergency then you may be opening yourself up to legal action thereafter should there be an incident/accident.

My father who was a veteran light aircraft instructor also mentioned the "self- survival" factor, ie if you are on your own in an aircraft you will do whatever it takes to look after your own neck!

QDMQDMQDM
15th Oct 2002, 15:01
This all comes down to risk tolerance and our society seems obssessed with eliminating all risk. There are some occasions in life when you have to take a reasonable set (not an excessive set) of precautions and then cross your fingers and hope like hell nothing unexpected happens. I can't think of a better example of such an occasion than a first solo.

You can't eliminate all risk and if you're the type who wants to do so and lies awake at night worrying to excess about the myriad things which might just happen, you shouldn't be flying an aircraft.

QDM

Clouded Yellow
15th Oct 2002, 16:23
On my first solo ATC were very helpful, a 737 was held for over 5 minutes whilst I completed my one circuit. I could see it sitting there as I toddled round.

Mr Wolfie
15th Oct 2002, 17:23
After reading the "How long to solo" posts, I had exactly the same thoughts as you, Evo.

I soloed last week after 15 hours training. Only the last 3 hours of this 15 hours were circuits. Prior to this my instructor made me practice forced landings, recovery from full stall (both clean and full flaps, and from 15 degrees bank angle to simulate stalling whilst turning from base onto final) until my reactions and imputs became almost automatic. Similarily, a few go around with full flap and engine fire / aborted take-offs, etc. were thrown in for good measure.

Upon reading the number of people on PPRUNE who posted that they had soloed in 5 or 6 hours I did not think, "wow, what natural pilots", but instead, "how can an instructor have imparted sufficient knowledge in that time for a student pilot to handle anything other than a completely (hopefully) event-free single circuit". An ab-initio student would surely still be only getting to grips with basic handling and primary and secondary effects of controls after 5 or 6 hours.

I discussed the "how long to solo" thread on PPRUNE with a couple of instructors at my flying school and they suggested to me that to have demonstrated, practiced and completed all the relevant excercises in the JAR syllabus required to safely solo would take a minimum of 10 hours prior to starting circuits and a minimum of an hour or two of consistent circuits.

Its going to take a minimum of 45 hours flying to get your ticket so whats the rush about getting that first solo in prior to getting a little more experience.

My instructors view of when I was ready to solo at 15 hours was entirely consistent with my own judgement that I was ready, proficient and confident. I cannot imagine the posibility of first solo at single figure hours.

Mr. Wolfie.

discobeast
16th Oct 2002, 01:31
went solo and could not believe the amount of power i had in hand without the instuctor. the heli just climbed like mad! first thought was " how do i get this baby to calm down??" and then all just fell into place. flying-instinct took over and i enjoyed it being alone up there. i still enjoy flying alone more than having someone next to me. a lot less pressure.

when i had to go do solo auto's... hehe... that's a whole different story!:eek: :D

flyboy6876
16th Oct 2002, 07:09
Well, about 4 months ago (some of you may have seen this on the D&G forum at the time), there was an incident at my local airfield involving one of our club C152s.

A person on their first solo copped a freak crosswind on landing and was flipped completely upside down. The aircraft is a write-off and they walked away with some bruising. I have'nt heard if they have flown again since then.

Don't know if anything could have prepared them for this!

Dewdrop
16th Oct 2002, 07:19
During my first solo I was completely on automatic, running the circuit routine, making the calls, adopting the configuration. My instructor said "you only go solo for the first time once, so enjoy it". Well I enjoyed the taxi after landing and the congratulations when I got back to the club house, but the rest was shear concentration:eek:

knobbygb
16th Oct 2002, 08:26
I see the point Mr Wolfie makes - and certainly agree that a low hours solo isn't right for everybody, probably not even the majority.

As someone who went solo after seven hours I would argue that it doesn't necessary take 10 hours to get used to primary and secondary effects of controls before circuits can begin.

Looking back at my log book, it goes roughly like this:

hours lesson

1.0 ... Familiarisation, taxiing, primary and further effects
- ... 1hr walk-round brief
1.2 ... Straight+level,climbing,decending,turning
- ... 1hr circuit brief
1.0 ... Circuits, go arounds
1.0 ... Slow flight and stalling, ATC - talking to local MATZ
0.8 ... Circuits, flapless approach, EFATO
0.7 ... Circuits, EFATO, glide appreach
- ... 1hr PFL brief
1.1 ... PFL's with and without power, real PFL onto home airfield
0.8 ... Circuits, poor weather circuits, EFATO
0.2 ... First solo

Now I know thats not an exhaustive list, perhaps double the time would have prepared me even better, but I do think I'd covered most of the major things that could go wrong on the first solo.

Don't forget also to take into account that at a small airfield, it is quite possible to do eight or 10 circuits per hour, and with no holding and a practice area really close by, this can nearly double the actual amount of 'learning' packed into those first hours.

My instructor did say afterwards that I was a 'natural', but I prefer to think that the real trick was doing LOADS of preparation for each lesson and spending time afterwards 'replaying' in my head what happened and where I could have improved. On the odd occasion I've been in a rush or turned up late for a lesson I have learnt a lot less than when I was fully prepared.

Yes, there's a certain risk involved in an early solo, but remember, I jump in my car and drive 110 miles round trip to the airfield - which is more dangerous? I'm sure no experienced instructor would send someone solo (and risk their license and livelyhood) just to score points in an 'early solo' sweep.

Although I wasn't particularly aiming to solo early, on the whole, I'm glad I did it how I did. It was a huge confidence builder for very little cost in terms of risk.

AerBabe
17th Oct 2002, 15:07
I went solo in under 10 hours too, but covered stalling, spinning, EFATOs, PFLs, and glide approaches first! I knew I was going to be sent solo because I felt ready, my landings were good, and consistent, and we did a circuit with simulated radio failure (with the tower flashing the green light at us).

I think pretty much everything that was likely to go wrong was covered, my instructor waited on the taxiway with a handheld transceiver, no-one else was in the circuit, and there was hardly any wind.

Nothing went wrong, but I felt confident all the way round that I could handle it, or at least make a good attempt at doing so, if it did. This meant I enjoyed it more too. :)

PPPPP
18th Oct 2002, 17:07
I solo-ed this morning at 14 hrs 25 mins total hours, which included 8h 55 in a Grob G115 then the remainder in a C172.
Prior to this I too had been put through numerous EFATO scenarios, practice forced landings, glide and flapless approaches and a "what if the field closes while you're in the circuit?"
The spur for my instructor to send me for my checkride prior to the final was the first time I beat him to declaring a go-around!

I can't with the best will in the world see how all this and general handling too can be covered in less than 10 hours, although I do have age against me (>50)

(edited for factual accuracy:)

Beethoven
18th Oct 2002, 17:18
Probably had no less than 5 pre-solo check rides with Dave Duckworth at Barton before I was declared fit to solo after 25 hours..quite a long time I suppose but I was ready quite a bit before then but sadly every time the CFI tried to clear me to solo,I flew absolutely appalingly (he had never seen a warrior fly at 45 knots before!!:eek: ).
The actual solo was a total non-event apart from being great in itself but I found the 3 hours solo-consolidation afterwards quite nerve-wracking for some reason.

knobbygb
18th Oct 2002, 19:58
but I found the 3 hours solo-consolidation afterwards quite nerve-wracking for some reason.

I was told that those 3 or 4 hours are the most dangerous. You're not really any more experienced than you were for the first solo, yet are full of confidence and belief in your abilities, especially towards the end. My instructors watched my like hawks at that stage, with really thorough checks before each solo session.

After that it was my chance to do the whole thing on my own, from walking out to the aircraft to walking in again, without any intervention from an instructor. I checked everything three times and will probably never be as safe again.

Well done, by the way, PPPPP. I live near Manchester and the weather this morning was absolutley perfect (when the fog cleared), and I was grounded - child-minding :mad:

paulo
22nd Oct 2002, 22:08
Is there increased risk at first solo? Of course. How could it be anything than other than that?

So, are we hitting on anything in particular here? (e.g. what does the industry, and customers with hindsight, agree are the minimum excercises?).

[me personally, #1 was fine, #2-5 all had some issues ranging from gusting x-wind, to spiral dive, to... well, I learnt alot early, scarily...]