Set up a DC-3 group?

[QDMQDMQDM]

Only £100K, no VAT, for N47FK:

http://www.eurofly.co.uk/dakotasale/n47fk2.htm

It could be done!

QDM

[Aussie Andy]

I imagine Opex (running costs) would far outstrip Capex in this case?

[QDMQDMQDM]

I imagine Opex (running costs) would far outstrip Capex in this case?

Oh yes. Some fixed costs could be offset by airshow / film work, but probably not much. I'm guessing that fuel is in the order of 100 gallons an hour? Probably more. Out of my league, I'm afraid.

No-one said it would be cheap, but imagine the sound that beast makes!

QDM

P.S. There is a reason that G-DAKK Is being sold byt he receivers!

[Aussie Andy]

The sound? Yes, I'm with you on that one QDM!

So lets run it as a loss and a tax dodge then, and it'll lose money and go back to the receivers again!

[formationfoto]

This is on my all time wish list. Needs about 20 people in my view to try and make sense of the op costs. Oh and an army of volunteers to keep costs down. Anyone willing to make this happen can count me as one of the 20.

[QDMQDMQDM]

The Plane Sailing Catalina must have pretty similar operating costs, maybe a bit more. They have some quite high monthly sub and then I think it's £600 per hour and, I think, 15-20 people.

Chuck, how much does it cost to operate a PBY?

QDM

[LPL]

100k for a DC3...........I wouldn't give 1k

what people see in this ugly machine is beyond me :confused:

[QDMQDMQDM]

what people see in this ugly machine is beyond me

Sacrilege. Unbeliever!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

QDM:

The basic costs for both the PBY and DC3 are:

Fuel : 72 Imp Gallons per. hour cruise.

Fuel: 85 Imp. gallons per. hour touch and go circuits.

Oil: Two to four Imp. gallons per. hour.

If you can get volunteer engineers and Pilots and a low insurance coverage, I can help you there, the DC3 is not all that expensive to operate.

If you wish more info e-mail me.

Cat Driver:

[LowNSlow]

And where would the beauty be based? North Weald, Duxford?

Getting 20 bods of like mind within reasonable distance of the airfield could be a problem. I could be interested if it's one of the above. :)

Sticking with the round engines theme, but more affordable in terms of CapEx and OpEx, what about a Beech 18 or a Broussard?

[FlyingForFun]

I'm definitely interested. Unfortunately, despite the fact that I've been hassling her non-stop since I saw this post yesterday, my manager isn't interested enough to give me the huge pay-rise I'd need, so I think I'll just have to sit here and day-dream :(

FFF
-------------

[Lowtimer]

It's a bit of a step up from a Yak but it's one of my all-time favourites. 20 people at 5K up front each, it certainly makes you think. If based at Duxford and on public transport C of A, I suspect a deal might be reached to lease some of its capacity to Classic Wings, especially on air show days when they have a potential need to get a lot of pleasure flying done in a relatively short time. A DC-3 on such days is the ideal complement to the Rapide / Moth operation, as the old Russavia pleasure flying operation used to bring in a DC-3 to run alongside two Rapides, a Moth and a Chippie on the big air show days back in the late '80s, and there was never a problem selling the seats. Obviously any revenue from this would only supplement the overall annual running costs, not pay them. But given the expansion plans for Duxford I think the outlook could be increasingly favourable over time.

[Final 3 Greens]

I once followed one down finals and its approach speed seemed like about 70kts.

I was in a PA32 doing 90 and was definitiely catching up!!!

Amazing aeroplane.

[treadigraph]

Sorry, can't afford to join in, but I'll willingly stump up a bit of cash to come flying with you if you can pull it off.

Ugly? No way! And if I prefer her bigger sisters (-4, -6 and -7) it's only because they are rarer over here!

Good luck,

Treads

[sharpshot]

Well LowNSlow, that's why you wanted your Multi-Rating back.

I guess next time B.A. are flogging a 747 for £1 m there'll be a new thread.......let me see, how many shareholders at £5k each:D :D

[sunnysideup]

Had a look at this DC3 in detail a month or so ago.

When it comes down to the realistic sale price of £60k - at most - then put me down, as I decided I couldn't buy it all for myself.

If anyone seriously considers it at the much inflated price, then I have some very detailed running costs for you. Email me.

It can make itself pay done right.

[treadigraph]

I think a time-expired 747 would convert into an excellent house - can't quite see Croydon Council giving me planning-permission on that one though! Never mind how to get it here...

[LowNSlow]

Weren't a bunch of the ex-BA Classic 747's sold off for considerably less than £1M?

If there's a will to do something like this, have a look at my post on forming a group. :D

As sunneysideup says, £60k is a more realistic price even for one in tip top condition. If there was going to be arial work done would it have to be on a UK C of A or could it retain it's N reg?

If you want that round engine sound and the fun of taildragging, a Broussard is the cheapest way to do it.

Isn't this the Dak with a completely bare interior cos it's major function in life is dropping paras in between attending airshows? If so, she's not exactly showroom condition......

[Genghis the Engineer]

Looks fun, got no money. If it ever happens, happy to trade professional services for flying hours.

G

[QDMQDMQDM]

If you want that round engine sound and the fun of taildragging, a Broussard is the cheapest way to do it.

A group of 6 has just bought G-YYYY, the former St. Ivel advertiser, from Rendcombe and operates it at Eggesford. They seem to have no problems operating it and it's very nice to fly apparently. About 20 gallons an hour. If it's flying and you're here there are usually spare seats in the cavernous interior.

The DC3 would be incredible fun and probably do-able at £60K capital cost with 10-20 or so members, but it would take someone to lead the project who had real driving force (and time).

QDM

[Crossedcontrols]

Is it worth opening this up to other forums. Might get someone who's done this before, or military chaps with a spare corner of hangar :-). Could sell different grades of shares, full flying for those with a twin rating, passenger only for non PPL's and something in between for PPL SEP. Might attract more people.
Could paint it in PPRUNE colours and get sponsorship from Dan the man.

CC

[no sponsor]

as in all plane sales: the seller (if they are experienced) can be knocked down by 40%.

I'd be interested. If it was based at Duxford, then all the better. I'd think it needs to be converted to a easy PAX configuration to get the best returns back. I can't see that para dropping and film work being that lucrative.

[FlyingForFun]

Also remember that, if you're going to be paid for film work, etc. you'll need a CPL. Even cost-sharing isn't a realistic option for PPL-owners, since you can't cost-share between more than 4 people.

If anyone on this forum goes ahead with this, I'd like to put my name down for a ride... and possibly some stick time, too! :) I will, of course, contribute to the cost of the flight!

FFF
----------

[LowNSlow]

QDMx3, I'd love to come to Eggesford and sample an Auster on steroids! I've heard the Broussard and the Auster have similar landing characteristics due to the castoring tailwheel :eek:

Regarding the CPL issue I think the best course of action would be to form a Ltd. Co. around the aeroplane and have a nominated display pilot. That way the Co. gets paid for any displays to offset the OpEx and the pilot does it for fun.

So does anybody know what the parking / landing fess are at Duxford?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Now if you guys want to look at another airplane that gives you the thrill of round piston pounding engines with the thrill of a real tail wheel airplane here is a suggestion.

There is a Beech 18 parked at North Weald and it has most of the mods that make the B18 a true pilots airplane. The fuel cost to operate it is almost half of the DC3.

The airplane is owned by Clive and Mark Edwards who I work with, if you want a real nice pilots airplane go look at that one.

If you like it and buy it I will teach you how to fly it, you will love it.

Cat Driver:

[sunnysideup]

It is true that the interior is bare at the momoent. And the ridiculous metal panelling will have to be removed. The current colour scheme is just theatrical paint after some recent film work. I believe its silver underneath (proper Dak colour!)

I am reliably informed that the recently recovered seats are part of the deal, as are reconditioned props which, when I last checked, where boxed up ready to go to the States to have the work done (already paid for) but are sitting in a North Weald hanger at the mo.

The "Ground Crew" who used to show people around it at airshows and do all the other "ground crew" stuff, have been helping us enormously with the Antonov An2 recently. They know a fair bit about what you could do with it and what works or not for making a few quid to cover costs.

I also know of a ATPL with 500 hours DC-3 time who was interested in doing the commercial flying bit if we could do a deal and another who was ready to write a cheque if the price was right.

In fact, I've talked myself back into it. If anyone seriously wants to put a group togther then count me in, as long as we get a realistic buying price.

[LowNSlow]

Chuck, I think that the Beech 18 is a much more sensible option than the DC3. Anybody else interested?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

L & S :

England is a big place and there are still a few people with some money left that could afford to play with these toys.

Why not form a group and operate both these airplanes?

They are both availiable and at the same airfield.

If I had my choice between the two airplanes as to which one I perefer it would be a difficult choice.

I have over 5000 hrs on 3,s and around 2,000 hrs on 18's so I think I have figured out how to out think both types. :D

Cat Driver:

[QDMQDMQDM]

Why not form a group and operate both these airplanes?

Chuck,

You are an evil, evil man. ;)

Everyone -- I'd love to be involved if it gets off the ground, but my Super Cub leaves me skint and I'm 5-6 hours drive from the Duxford area anyway. Shame.


QDM

[Skylark4]

QDM
How far from Duxford are you by Supercub?

Mike W

[formationfoto]

Now this is getting interesting. It looks as if there just could be a possibility here. What it needs, of course, is someone with time, knowledge, and drive to make it happen and for those of us who have said we would be interested to back up our interest with a real commitment. Sadly I don't have time at present and failled when I last set about a challenge of this nature. Have managed to build groups around Chipmunk and Luscombe but the commitment here was much less.

The Beech is a good idea but not quite as impressive as the DC3. The Dak still gets all at an airfield to drop what they are doing and come have a look.

Duxford or Weald would be great for me - half hour flying time max in the C310.

[Sensible]

One of these beasts followed me in to Calalina Island off the coast of L. A. it was still in service as a cargo aircraft. I watched it do a perfect landing, an awesome sight. I dread to think of the cost of a Cof A and hangerage!!!!!!!

[Rusty Cessna]

This looks promising,

I hope that the idea manages to get off the ground, personally I'd love to get involved, time isnt a problem, money is though, and like QDMQDMQDM Im too far away for it to be practicle.

Best of luck with it,
Rusty.

[down&out]

QDMx3 asked:
P.S. There is a reason that G-DAKK Is being sold byt he receivers!

Yes, the company running it went into liquidation, taking lots of peoples’ money with it. Rather like European Flyers (upon which the web page you refer is hosted)

It may be a co-incidence, but Tony Holden was the director of European Flyers, and was ousted as a director of South Coast Airways, just before it went down as well.

[LowNSlow]

A receiver sale is obviously negotiable and they IMHO stand no chance of getting the asking price.

Whayhay, cheap(!!!), chunky aeroplane up for grabs, let's do it.

Mmm, maybe not. Throwing that kind of cash at a pretty aeroplane without a solid idea of what the group wants to do with it and a solid agreement on how to finance and manage it is peeing in the wind chaps and chapettes :(

Committing a reasonable chunk of change into a big toy is easily done and easily regretted. It's no good going into a hissy fit if it's not there when you want to take the kids/friends to see it.

Not wishing to sound like an Anderson Droid, but a management structure has to be put in place and given the authority to manage the aeroplane. Obviously rules have to be put in place etc etc but it ain't going to be dreamland or am I just an old cynic :rolleyes:

[Sensible]

A DC3 group is just a pipe dream, there is no realistic way that this group would work, now lets see, twenty people in the group so that's 20 people trained up to fly this taildragger. I suppose with 20 different pilots that it would be no problem for all of them to be up to speed with flying it and what is the cost of remaining current on an aircraft such as this? ok, so say that just 6 people would fly it and the remaining 14 members would be happy standing at the side of the runway watching? I think not!

I seriously don't believe the plan would work as a private group ownership even if the aircraft came for free. This thread belongs in jet blast !

[distaff_beancounter]

According to G-INFO at The CAA, G-DAKK is registered to General Technics Ltd.

At Companies House, General Technics Ltd is registered, with the same directors, as General Airline Ltd T/A European Flyers - In Liquidation.

There is no indication that General Technics Ltd is in Liquidation or Receivership.

There is a charge (aircraft mortgage) registered on G-DAKK to Close Brothers, for a loan agreement.

So one can only assume that the directors of General Techinics Ltd, have decided to sell G-DAKK, perhaps because it is not producing sufficient revenue to repay the loan to Close Brothers.

[stiknruda]

As one lucky enough to have accumulated 30 hrs hrs in DC3s (actually C47s for the pursists), I applaud the idea of building a group around one.

However, reality check ON

What are you actually going to do with it?

The 5 airframes that I was fortunate enough to experience were all used for delivering WFP aid into the African bush for a couple of UN contracted suppliers. These aeroplanes were work-horses and were treated very much as an aerobatic competitor treats his mount - a tool for the job!

However as a low timed MEP pilot but with comparitevely lots of tailwheel time, they were superb confidence building machines - wheel it on at 60 and with full fwd contol the tail gently settles at about 37. A lovely aeroplane!

With time, Russian operators of An 26/An32 won the contracts and the Dak dwindled mid nineties.

FF - yep you can get one in and out of my front garden easily!!


Stik

back from exile in Portugal

[LowNSlow]

OK back to reality, how much is that Beech 18 going for Chuck? :D

[Dave Gittins]

Interesting thread. I remember when I was a lad any number of DC-3 s were advertised in the back of Flight every week for about £12 K and since that day I have always wanted to get my hands on one.

No doubt I fall into the category of the rest of the posters here "...If somebody else wants to put together a deal count me in but I'm too busy/sensible/strapped for cash, to do it myself".

Now if there is somebody with masochistic tendencies out there ..... I can be at N Weald or Duxford in about 40 minutes from Fairoaks.

I'll keep an interested (but not altogether optimistic) eye out ....

:D

[formationfoto]

Hey Stik
Someone once said to the wright brothers that they would never be able to fly - they managed to obscure their Reality sensor and make it work.

I guess if it was easy the skies would be full of DC3 rebuilds. Not far from you is a guy who decided that he could rebuild, fly, and display a P51. He achieved it, a task considerably less easy than getting 10 people together in a DC3 and then displaying it.

I thought you were made of more positive stuff than that!

I guess you don't want it in your garden then if it eventually happens?

Now I know you are friendly with a number of reasonably well off types who are into aviation so perhaps they could make the dream come true?.

I have been working at this desk now for 12 hours in the hope that my reward package will be increased to allow me to fritter more money on aviation dreams - never mind you are probably right. This sort of fun is for others. I'm going to cut my wrists - well maybe just scratch myself slightly I can't be bothered to do anything more than that.

:) :) :)

Isn't it about time we sorted the pics of your new PP? - hope you have got some words together now.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

LowNslow:

Phone Clive Edwards at 208 304 2857

Or

Mark Edwards at 162 272 6278

There may be one number in front of those two numbers when phoning in England/ the numbers I dial start with 011 44 then those numbers.

Clive lives in Welling and Mark lives about forty miles south of London.
Chuck

[LowNSlow]

Thanks Chuck.

Now if I can get some positive statements from these bods, I'll give them a call.

[bottieburp]

DC3 operation? Take out your wallets and repeat after me 'help yourself'. More feasible in the USA, not only becaue the fuel is cheaper. I bet it doesn't happen. A pity though - I remember it chugging in to Popham - so slooooow!

How about Rex Fords gorgeous Rapide at Sywell? Being brokered at £160k but presumably negotiable. It is on Public Transport - screaming out for a supporters club (code for - you pay for my flying, clean the thing, empty the Elsan, spend all day at airshows signing more up - whilst wearing a nice flying suit (with wings of course) - and get a ride once a year if you'r lucky.

Seriously - a Rapide does make more sense if you want something old, big and interesting, with more than one donkey.

Great pose value when you pitch up at a Fly-In.

I am in the Midlands and could be interested in the Spring if still available. Ideal scenario is for the aircraft to stay there and Rex maintains a share. He rebuilt it - he knows it inside out and backwards.

Bottie

[formationfoto]

OK Bott
A much more practical proposition I agree. Not quite as impressive but a great machine. I think probably less useful on losing a fan than the DC3 (at least so I have been told) but loads of character. My £16k is a good bet for a 10 person group. When I eventually find time to do the commercial, poling the pleasure flight Rapide from Duxford around Cambridge is on my list of fun activities.

[CBG]

Down & Out (and others)

You are right - Tony Holden was behind South Coast (in its last months) and behing the C47 club.

And it's no coincidence that all these went down (I too was a member of European Flyers. I did not lose as much money as some...but still).