Lon Mil Capacity

[alpha control]

It appears that Lon Mil are having a few capacity problems. During a recent exercise they were unable to handle a large amount of traffic to and from the ACMI. Is this a manning shortfall? Or are they unable to cope with large formations and require other more capable units/controllers to do the job for them!!!

[eyeinthesky]

Given the pasting you got (including some from your own unit) last time you posted on here suggesting that other ATCOs were less capable than you, I think you are either very brave or very stupid to start your latest campaign!! :rolleyes:

[Nogbad the Bad]

I'll go for stupid.......:D

[Avoiding Action]

Don't encourage him.....:rolleyes:

[2 six 4]

Or are they unable to cope with large formations and require other more capable units/controllers to do the job for them!!! That lets your unit out Alpha. I'd rather be worked by the FIR than your lot.

[BDiONU]

Alpha 'control' isn't an ATCO, but an Air Defence person. Vast difference.

[niknak]

Well said Air Vent.

Perhaps letting air defence bods out into the sunshine is a policy that needs to be reviewed.....:p :rolleyes: :p

[Co ordination unaffected]

Oldie but Goodie

What's the difference between a scopie and a computer?

You only have to punch a computer once to get the information out.

[Avoiding Action]

Good to see all the old stereotypes being revisited - it's so long since they've been posted here:D

Oh, well, back to the hole in the ground:rolleyes:

[BDiONU]

We like them! Saves you having to think about the persons you're talking about, just simply pigeonhole them!
A golden oldie:

(To the tune of Disney's Snow White & the 7 dwarfs)

Hi ho, hi ho, I am an ASO,
I watch my scope, I am a dope,
Hi ho, hi ho, hi ho, hi ho!

Etc.

Or

If I could choose a place to die it would be Buchan, because the transition from life to death would be unnoticable! ;)

[Hippy]

:D Good to see the banter is still going strong, but we better get round to some facts;) :

In short - yes, it's a manning shortfall. The size of the formation is not relevant. Lon Mil consoles are normally restricted to working 3 (yes 3!) tracks. May not sound like a big number, but 3 tracks can often generate enough workload to mean that accepting further traffic can jeopardise safety. OTOH, 3 mundane tracks may allow extra capacity and authorisation to take more traffic may be given on an individual basis. The work required for different types of traffic varies immensely. Large formations are one speaking unit and one track, so I re-iterate, not relevant.

Turning to the manpower, the shortfall is in support controllers, not ATCOs. Each console must be manned by one of each. The disparity between establishment (don't have the exact figure, but about 58) and those available for rostering - 34 (taking this week as a typical example) can be explained thus:

Under training for first validation: 5
On det (Former Yugoslavia/Afghanistan/Middle East/South Atlantic): 6
On JATCC course & still on strength: 6
Guarding RAF Uxbridge: 1
Resettlement/Terminal leave: 1
Establishment shortfall: about 5
Total: 24 unavailable for rostering, without considering leave/sickness/etc.

True, a dispensation to use ATCOs as Support Controllers is held. They are not trained to do the job, it is not an ideal solution but it can often mean the ability to open an extra 2 or 3 consoles.

So, all that traffic and a limited number of lots available. Service is provided on a priority basis, with about 8 categories. Aircraft in emergency is top, traffic general handling in the middle air (such as Mil exercise traffic) is bottom.

So there it is, on with the banter...if you have a console open with the capacity to ringing me up enquiring whether my 6152 sqk 2 miles off the runway at Coningsby is the pair of F3s that you are going to work when they start fighting over the North Sea, why the hell can't you take them through TAFKABO (the airway formerly known as blue one) yourself & free up a slot to reduce our refusal stats by one?

Rgds,
Hippy.

[Avoiding Action]

Hippy,

Thanks for the constructive reply. Speaking personally, I'm usually only too happy to take jets off you at the stage you descibe - banter on - especially if it means I get them to a position where I want them, as opposed to where I usually get them when ATCCs do the transit:D - banter off.

However, one of the major reasons why this doesn't routinely happen is supervisory constraints. Our allocator (equivilient to Mil Sup) may be monitoring a 6v6 east of Leuchars at the same time as my 1v1 north of silva. This "split" puts the sorties at the limits of his supervision on the scope anyway, without me deciding to pick up a transit from as far south as Cgy. But you're right, most of the time it's because - banter on - I find transits so mundane and prefer to spend those last few minutes psyching myself up for the warry-tactics type stuff that I'm about to do - banter off.

More communication required at all levels, perhaps?;)

[Hippy]

AA, touché :D

<banter>
Only two reasons why they're not where you want them:
1. Most transits are 'own nav', so you/they didn't brief properly.
2. The Luffty into Manch had a say in the matter and won :D

either way, like I said, if you want to position them....

</banter>

Your explanaition about radar split & the need to keep fresh for battle accepted.;)

Rgds,
Hippy

[MCME]

Alpha, will you ever learn? If you had spent as much time at the MASOR as I have, you would appreciate the manning difficulties the Mil ATC have. Its not just us 'poor mushrooms' who have manning problems.

As for the transits you talked about, I was the FA who sup'd the 2 WCs who did the transits for 3 days. Not an easy job for the WCs, and one I am more than thankful our bretheren ATCOs are more than willing to take on. We had the flex and they were over taksed, so we did our bit, which would appear to be more than you seem capable of! Having discussed your posts with the rest of the AD community from within our bunkers, not all of us are convinced you are actually a controller! Rise to the bait, show your hand and let us educate you in the niceties of being polite, cooperative, grown up etc. Need I go on?.

To the rest of the thread, appologies once again, we are still looking and when we find him/her or it rest assured.....?:mad:

[Bullseye Bandit]

The 'Hunt' for Alpha Control continues......there are suggestions of who it may be, however concrete proof is still lacking. I reckon his wit and tact definately have him marked for high rank:confused: ....maybe even reach FL Lt soon....

I agree with Avoiding action, I will always attempt to take over my a/c direct from CY unless the Allocator has briefed me not to because of his area of supervision. I prefer to take the aircraft myself so that all the sortie admin has been completed before they get to the play area, this in turn gives more time on task, also when they get to the area they are ready to turn in straight away......however there are exceptions at all units

All AD controllers are usually manned ready for the sortie 30 mins before the a/c get airborne so that they are briefed and happy with the traffic flow for their area...... I get the feeling that Mil think we let them transit because we want another '5' in the crewroom that is simply not the case.

All student FC's visit Scot/Lon Mil as part of the course dont see many student ATCO's visit the AD world.

[Marconi Boy]

I was one of the grateful controllers who had to deal with the mass launch from A to B and back again and I would like to say I enjoyed the whole damn lot of it.

At last I could test my JSP's to the MAX!:eek:

I remember the quote of the WA SATCO, "Just point them at point B and hand them over" reply "OK" Bring on silent handovers!! or more landlines please.

Thanx London, I await the next exciting episode.:cool:

[canberra]

as an ex raf flight ops cpl let me have a dig at alpha control and all the scopies. if your going to come on here having at go the raf atc branch be prepared to get it back with both barrels. i had 3 tours at leuchars between 85 an last year, my feelings towrds the whole scope dope empire are that you feel you are something special in reality you are in my opinion incompetent. i'll give you a few examples. starex ex priory 1986, i had to pass the entire leuchars orbat to 5 different people in 5 minutes. on various exercises and even on qra i found that the allocator wasnt talking to the fighter marshal, the idro wasnt talking to the maritime marshal and the mc wasnt talking to anyone! although i must say that the female mc at buchan 2 years ago did seem to know what was going on, perhaps she was an ex atco! and what really put the tin hat on it was one saturday morning, one of the q crews doing the daily telebrief checks from the cockpit. he calls me up"loud and clear stand by for neatishead" i ring neatishead to tell them the aircraft is on telebrief and ready for check and sitrep"oh the controllers not in the bunker, hes gone to move his car and wont be back for ten minutes" with great delight i told the airvraft this, the nav just happened to be my boss! the phone line to neat was red hot! oh and finally here a brilliant one from neat on a morning brief" all radars to the north are serviceable except for buchan saxa vord and benbecula" and in closing my i say alpha control that i never did a tour at area radar depite 23 years in tg9.

[Marconi Boy]

Canberra,

You look to have been having a little trouble with the old finger while completing your assassination of the Scope Dopes as you so nicely put it. I wonder if this is why TG12 were detached to update the RDET’s at certain Military ATC airfields.

I await your next personal reply with my dictionary!:p

[Bullseye Bandit]

He He Canberra, not bad I say if thats all in 23 years. I take it you were eternally poisoned by the fact that when you were a Cpl Scope Dopes were more highly prized and rewarded with a whole payband above what the TG9 ATC branch was. It was amazing how many times that TG9 wanted to merge with TG12 (scopies) because you all thought that they were basically doing the same job.....Oh how the tune has changed eh Basically someone thought that scopies were worth more than AATC's, this is also borne out by the fact that scopies were

1) Not offered redundancy with the drawdowns.

2) Civvies are not allowed to do their job.

After Sep 11th it is quite amazing how high profile the AD world has become with the masters up on the hill.

And as ex TG12 I could recall many times the lack of communication between the Tower, Wg ops and the Ops desk at Squadrons...." is c/s a/b" Wg Ops "No"........Phone Squadron to check delay "He's a/b".........phone Wg ops "squadron say he is a/b" Wg ops "standby...(phones squadron)... he's a/b" Sod it phone Tower and ask if he has got a/b somebody has got to know!!! Tower "phone Wg Ops"....chasing my tail.

And Canberra if you had to tell the FM then the FA and then the MC then something was wrong with your info as that is the command chain working fine...the one above thinks the one below has got something wrong and so quite rightly checks it....now if the info was wrong in the first place??????

[BDiONU]

As an ex-AATC (Flight Ops, wots that then??) and ATC, having worked at Saxa (ShetRad) and ADNC West Drayton I could top some of your stories, but whats the point of it all? Zero really.

The hunt is on for Alpha 'Control' but its surely fairly simple. Just look for someone who's over-confident and immature!! Oh dear, that covers all the officer corps!! ;)

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

23 years and a cpl, I think you asked for that one canberra.

[Bullseye Check]

Lets all breathe a sigh of relief that Marconi Boy was on the scene to deal with such a situation otherwise it could of been a disaster!!!!!
As for canberra twenty how many years and only a Cpl that speaks for itself!!!
More awards for Marconi boy thats what I say!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[Marconi Boy]

Thanx B/E,

Cash instead of the awards would be gratefully accepted.

MB:D

[smorg]

It looks the net is closing in for Alplha Control and the sooner it does the better. :D .

Just to add my pennies worth: It does not bother me who the controller works for: Bunker in ground, Lon/Scot Mil, ATC or Civvie, at the end of the day hopefully we are all trying our hardest to ensure that all the glorified bus drivers in the sky can go about their work as safely as possible. So if i can take my aircraft of you early, honestly the cheques in the post, i will take them just to help you out.;) :rolleyes:

[Avoiding Action]

Now look everyone - stop praising Marconi Boy. If we're not careful his ego will get so big he won't be able to fit it through the door to the bunker - and then where would we all be, deprived of his massive controller skills?:D :D :D ;)

[Pie Man]

AA

On the other hand get him into the bunker tell him how good he is then you will have him permanently available :).

When you need to get him out tell him he needs to practice his handovers to external agencies - before you ask I was on the receiving end. ;)

[Marconi Boy]

Pie Man,

Looks like we both like our food.:p

I was only responsible for the transits outbound alone, the recovery was far too difficult for an "Award Winner" to handle on his own. I had assistance with that. (As you did at the home plate!!);)

PS: I still love single speaking units!! Even if there were more than one or two aircraft in the formation.. Oops SORRY.

Give my love to Point Bravo! It was still nice doing business with you all.

[Pie Man]

'I counted them out and I counted them in' fortunately the numbers were similar.

MB

So what if 1 becomes 2 - can't take a joke etc...:D

Look forward to NOMAD next year with no airway to cross ;)

-------------
I'll have a pie :cool:

[Madam ATCO]

You are so right Bullseye Bandit, your branch has been high profile since Sep 11, it's just a shame that when the time came to do your stuff 'for real' it was the worst abomination I've ever witnessed. Thank god ATC were there to sort it out for you (as usual).

[Marconi Boy]

So we are back where we started, slagging each other off again. Madam, Welcome to the club.

It would be nice if you knew what we actually did down the hole. You might want to come and visit one day, then you may also find out we have a lot of nice procedures to work with. No not just the standard sep stuff, that right AD things, you might not be aware of.

Instead of slagging the trade off, come and have a look.

We don't bite!! :D YET.

Yours MB

[Avoiding Action]

MB - You beat me to it;)

Madam ATCO,

Without prejudice and only a hint of banter,

I would suggest you know very little about what FCs actually do. On the (rare) occasions that I have seen visits to the bunkers by ATCOs, most depart with more understanding and, dare I say it, a little amazement and respect for what we're doing. Most of that comes down to an appreciation that we're training for war...can you say that about your primary duty?

Having said that, you're entitled to your opinion. Welcome to the thread;)

AA

[Pie Man]

As an innocent byestander (believe that if you wish) and assuming the FCs are trying to get ac together there are a number of ATCOs made for the FC trade/branch ;)

------------------------------------------------------
Approaching Decision Height look-up and crash visually

[niknak]

For last years allocated liason visit, I tried to arrange a trip to the "nearby" FC unit, mistakenly believeing that a visit by a civil atco (that's non - mil, not polite:p ), would be of benefit to both sides.

Big mistake :rolleyes: .

I was fobbed off to the nth degree by red tape, and went to Amsterdam instead.

A shame really, 'cos I still believe that FC could benefit from intrusions into their world from the aliens that are other airspace users.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Marconi Boy]

If there are any ATCO's wishing to liaise/visit us to see how we operate as FC's, let me know via Private Mail. I will need to know your full name, ATCU and daytime tel number.

I cannot guarantee anything.

MB

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

MB and AA, unusually for an air traffiker I have been to the odd bunker and found it most enlightening - I would strongly recommend a visit. However, in 17 years service I have never seen a visit by FCs to an ATC tower.
As far as "training for war" goes, I didn't see many CBA clad FCs on the ground in Afghanistan earlier this year.

[Marconi Boy]

I would just like to highlight a point.

Whipping Boy's SATCO Quote

"As far as "training for war" goes, I didn't see many CBA clad FCs on the ground in Afghanistan earlier this year."

Take3Call5 Quote

"And if the AD's are training for war then where was their involvement in all the recent conflicts???"

This is taken direct from the AWACS Sqn Web Site: I think you all are aware where these aircraft have been over the past few years.

Weapons Team Composition

The weapons team is headed by the Fighter Allocator (FA) who is responsible for the safe conduct of all aircraft which have been allocated to the E-3D for control. His/her 2 Weapons Controllers (WCs) can control a wide variety of air missions including Offensive and Defensive Counter Air operations using fighters, Close Air Support and Battlefield Air Interdiction using bombers and a wide variety of operational support aircraft.

Get a little closer to the action before you start quoting things you know nothing about.

Apologies and a little recognition for these guy's and girls would definitely be accepted.:p

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

MB, having spent 4 months in Afghanistan as an air traffiker I stand by my comments as, with an equal "hint of banter", I was replying to AA's statement:

Most of that comes down to an appreciation that we're training for war...can you say that about your primary duty?
I have worked in various operational CAOCs and AOCCs and am personally fully aware of the vital role played by FCs. I initially responded as it appeared to me that AA was unaware of the role of air traffikers. It may surprise him to note that we also train to survive and operate in war.

Finally, I will assume that your comment,

Get a little closer to the action before you start quoting things you know nothing about.
is meant for Take3call5 and not for me.

PS. I think you will find that BAI is no longer part of Air Power Doctrine.

[Marconi Boy]

WBS,

You assume correctly.

Ps. Just quoting the Sqn WWW Site. Thanx for the update though. ;)

[Marconi Boy]

T3C5

Exacly what do you think the AD aircraft do all day? Transit from A to B for fun.

Quote:

"So I ask the question once again, what war are the rest of you fighting from your bunkers in the UK?"

What the aircraft do between A to B might enable them and us practice for when we go sunnyside. Its no good training while actually on the Op tour. Read the books these might enable you to know what Ops we do conduct in the UK.

Cheers

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

MB/T3C5, time for a mutual tree hug?

[Marconi Boy]

The books ref to UKASACS Ops and not UKADGE, this is no longer.

If you are Military, then you should be aware of the books and documents which explain the procedures and operations we carry out within the UKAPA. If not, its because you probably don't "NEED TO KNOW";)

Nice speaking with you.:confused:

SATCO I agree.

[Marconi Boy]

To show you that we are PC...

:) :) :) :) :D :D :D

All is forgiven.. Until next time on PPRuNe..

MB

[Avoiding Action]

My God, we've had all these reasoned posts and no real slagging off....now that's progress:D :D

WB SATCO,

My original 'training for war' comment was a bite after Madam ATCO's comment. ;) I know you chaps do sterling and vital work on the ground in such places as Bagram and Pristina in pretty austere conditions. I take my hat off to you. Unfortunately, her comments represent what I (albeit subjectively) see as a widely held opinion in the ATC specialisation, especially among the younger and less experienced - what's the point in having FCs? - what's the point in AD? You, at least, appear to understand where everyone fits in - I hope I do as well and my comments were aimed at those who spend their life in a Tower in the UK (although maybe even that is harsh?)

Take3Call5,

You are of course correct. There is no threat to the UK.:rolleyes:

a. The folly of the 'Ten Year Rule' - 1930s
b. NORAD didn't think there was any threat to CONUS until a certain date in the recent past.

I trust that, even as a humble UK taxpayer, this might be enough for you to be going on with, lest I say any more and have a visit from some very large and unfriendly men talking about....sssh, official secrets......;)

Oh and BTW, just how many FC controllers do you think there are in the UK? Without divulging actual numbers, those on ops with, eg, the E3D component form a considerable percentage of that strength. These are not the days of the Shacklebomber!!!!!;) :D

Anyway, back on shift.....

AA

[Magic Mushroom]

T3C5 Old Chap,

Your quote :

'...the E3 AWACS and the very few FC's onboard...'

illustrates your considerable ignorance!

FC breveted individuals currently make up approx 60% of the E-3D mission crew. Currently 2/4 8 Sqn and 2/3 23 Sqn Flt cdrs wear an FC brevet. The OCU is currently commanded by an FC, as is the OES and the STANEVAL (until recently). We also fly on exchange with the USN E-2C force, and the USAF E-3B/C's. Probably a little over half of FC WC's will do a period on the E-3D at some point in their careers.

Personally, as an AWACS chappie, no one cares much for each other's brevet (banter aside!). We just view ourselves as WC's, FA's, SC's LM's, TD's or whatever. However, I suggest T3C5 that if you make statements like the above, please engage facts before employing keyboard!

Kindest regards...

M2

PS...AA, when are you going to get a life and come and do a decent job?!!!!:D :D :D

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

T3C5, I'll be a little less condescending and just suggest that you wind it in. If you knew a little more you would realise that, in the list you presented, there are a few more than 3 fighter controllers (8 or 9 by my book). Just to give you a clue: TD, SC and SOs.

Did I ever work with you at EDUO (late 80s)? I hope not.

TTFN :p

[Magic Mushroom]

Incidentally ladies and gents,

We have in the past taken civvy ATCO's flying on E-3D missions. Requires some arrangements but it can be done so why don't you give Waddington a call. Military ATC types are easy, just phone up 8 or 23 Sqn ops and put your name down.

Hopefully you'll enjoy it AND find it useful.

Regards
M2:)

[Avoiding Action]

M2,

If you can find the key to the shackles that are holding me where I am at the moment, I'll be there like a shot!:D

Safe Flying;)

AA