US PPL Visa advice needed

[big.al]

I am travelling to Florida to do my long-awaited PPL in April next year. This has been booked for months, and I intend to be there for four weeks in total.

Over the last few months I have heard nightmare stories about people being refused entry to the US by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, even for PPL courses. I recognise that for commercial training courses a J1/M1 visa is required, but my understanding is that British nationals can enter the US for up to 90 days (and do a PPL to boot) without any visa requirement.

It appears (from some genuine cases I've heard of) that some INS officials are unsure of the rules at some US gateway airports. My serious concern therefore is being turned away at Atlanta, on route to Orlando, simply because I own up to being there for flying training as opposed to just a holiday. One could simply say "I'm here to see Disneyworld" but I think that after the recent tragic events over there, if someone were to turn up with a bag full of flying manuals and flight computer etc, they'd be somewhat reluctant to believe that I'm only interested in seeing a big-eared mouse and his friends at WDW.

So, some advice please - either from those who have been / are in the same situation, or better still from those guys who are working at flying schools out in Florida right now.

What is the situation re Visas? Is it advisable to get one regardless of whether it is strictly required or not? If so, can you advise how I go about doing this? Are there any moves afoot to change the rules (which would be understandable) regarding visa requirements?

I understand that there have been VFR restrictions in place in Florida but that these have been lifted, and I'm sure things will be back to something approaching 'normality' by April 2002. We owe it to the memory of those lost on Sept. 11th to show the world that we will never sacrifice our freedom to enjoy our way of life.

I am fortunate to have enough time to sort out a visa if one is required but I am fairly sure that the US embassy here in the UK are a little too busy with more important issues to be able to answer my questions right now, and their website is far from conclusive.

Any help and advice appreciated.

Thanks, and regards, Alan.

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Alan

You are correct in thinking that you can enter the US on the 90 days visa waiver, however this is not for the purpose of flight training merely holiday.

On a PPL course you are required to be on a minimum of a M1 visa as you will be completing more than 18 hours per week (minimum to be considered on a training course). Any accredited school can offer this and it is merely a matter of paperwork.

I suggest that you do go on this visa as only last week a friend was not even allowed to board at Gatwick as he did not have an M1 Visa for training.

You may look at the following web page for all the workings of the visa requirement and actions required.
http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/visa/niv/student.htm

Good luck with your flight training! :D

[QUERY]

I did look into this and confirmed that the visa story is an old one used, by UK flying clubs and US FAA part 141 schools, to frighten people off JAA training in the US. You do NOT need a visa for a vacation during which you are recreational flying (includes JAA PPL course)in the US unless you are doing FAA accredited training- isn't that unlikely or stupid if you are a Brit?
You are eligible for a visa waiver, just like any other European tourist, but the decision is always that of the officer at the port of entry. Is it any surprise that silly sods, who say they are student pilots or give the impression that they might want to work in the U.S., have created a problem for themselves, when there isn't one?

[inverted flatspin]

you have two choices

1. Enter on a visa waiver but make no mention of flight training.

2. Get an appropriate Visa. (M-1)

In the current climate it would be best to have a visa.

[SKYYACHT]

Having worked for American Airlines for a number of years, and working closely with immigration, I would strongly recommend that you obtain a Student Visa. If you are embarking on a course of study, then to go into the US on a recreational visa could possibly cause you problems. I say possibly, but it is worth considering the implications. If there is an anomaly in your visa, and IF you get deported, then re-entering the US may be difficult in the future. It is a bit of hassle getting the bit of required paper. But it is worth it - as is travel insurance! (With additional premium paid to cover flying GA aircraft as Pilot) It is much better to do this, and then, once you have the prized PPL, go and hours build. For this you require NO visa, as a flying holiday does not constitute a course of study.

Hope that helps.

Tailwinds

[Blindside]

I went to the US in June this year to get my PPL. I was in the same situation as yourself regarding a visa, I posted on here and received alot of advice.

I decided to take the risk and skip getting a visa. I admitted to the custom chap that I was there to fly and he was very happy to let me in to the US.

With the current/future increased scrutiny I would not take the same risk now. It's a long way back if you are not allowed in & a massive hassle if you have arranged annual leave. The threat of future restrictions of entry would also be a major concern.

The consequences are the same it's the chances of getting caught that have increased.

Best regards

[QUERY]

After more foolish frighteners, the conclusion is as above- 'a flying holiday does not constitute a course of study'.
Recreational flying is like diving or golf, courses and lessons, and does not require a visa, unless you are at Part 141 FAA accredited commercial training places (which you wouldn't, or shouldn't, be for JAA PPL purposes).
Why this negative attitude in UK that everything to do with private flying is complicated, delayed, difficult, expensive etc? It is not only because of our amateurish clubs, bad weather, cost of fuel, landing fees, VAT etc. and is it any surprise that so many people go to learn and fly in the US where the aviation attitude is helpful and positive?

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Query

An M1 visa is required for anyone who is studying whether that is a flight training course or knitting course! If you are studying and taking lessons it is the same thing and has nothing to do with regulations that you are following. The Embassy advised that the only time you do not need a Visa for flying is recreational flying and therefore hourbuilding could be construed as this.

If you are a lawyer then please show me where you read into that the visa is not required. I have already listed the US Embassy web page for you to read so you know where I get my information from!

If this is pot luck then I suggest that you don't go advising unless you have something concrete. Yes some students can lie their way into the country but is this the way we should treat the process in light of the recent events. Why are you so against doing what is right in this day of terrorism. I got a visa myself to train in the US and it was so simple nobody could have a problem with it.

Therefore I ask you the question I asked before to which you did not respond "Do you own a flight school in the US that does not offer the Visa?"

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

QUERY,

You know exactly who I am. You know I own a JAA Flight School in the Florida. You know I offer the M-1 Visa to my students. You know that I have been advising students in this Forum for several months. You also know I give information on programs that will assist them, even when I do NOT offer the program myself.

Due to the current conditions in the U.S., if you are going to fly here, get a visa. The immigration people that will greet you at the airport know nothing about flying. They have the power to let you in or send you back home. Would you want to argue with an immigration officer, who knows nothing about aviation? The difference is between what you will be doing and what the law will allow you to do?

This is not the world of September 10, 2001. During this time Immigration will lean on the side of caution. If they are not sure, you are going to be going back home. In six months it should settle down, but right now, get a Visa. Don't chance it. One of my students tried this 'non visa' method and was not allowed to travel until he had a visa.

I will post a thread this evening with all the blanks in the M-1 Visa, so people can see what is involved.

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[GoneWest]

Query...I have you sussed now...it's no good just changing your registered name on pprune - if you wish to stay anon. you should also change the way you say things (and what you say)...and then try to wrap the postings in at the same time as using the outgoing name.

How's that school going up there near Daytona? Ask Henri or Herniair, they are surely good friends of yours.

Anyway...the visa question...I have just cut the following from the AOPA web site...

<<Student background check proposed
The Senate will also begin debate today on aviation security legislation. AOPA has learned that Senator Bill Nelson of Florida will offer a floor amendment requiring a background check for all current and future students enrolled in flight training. AOPA has offered to work with Senator Nelson on proposals to enhance the procedures of the agencies that allowed terrorists to enter the country and enroll in flight training. AOPA reiterated that the overwhelming majority of flight students are law-abiding U.S. citizens who have done nothing to deserve this treatment.>>

Florida Senator. Trying to prove his worth. Do you really think they'll go through with something like this and yet not care about people having a visa?

Headline news tonight is that a crazed passenger attacked the driver of a Greyhound bus as it drove through Tennessee. Slashed the drivers throat with a "razor blade or box cutter" and caused the bus to crash - killing six people. The second line of the headline is that the guy entered the USA two years ago - on a one month visa.

Do you really think they are going to ignore the visa question??

[Sensible]

Can I assume that a box cutter is a Stanley knife??

[big.al]

Folks -

Thanks for your posts and your advice. I have e-mailed the FTO in Orlando to ask for the I20-M form, to get the visa balling rolling, so to speak.

Particular thanks to 'Capt Richard Gentil' and 'Facts not Fiction Please' - very helpful.

Richard - your idea of posting the M1 details on this site is excellent - please do this as it will help me no end, and probably many others, to understand what is involved.

I dare not take the risk of being turned away from the US as my wife and in-laws are travelling with me, for a holiday whilst I fly. Saving for the course has taken quite some time, and I have my head in the Jeremy Pratt books most evenings (to my wife's consternation) so I would be gutted to be turned away upon arrival, as you can imagine.

Is it a simple process to get the M1 visa?
And if anyone else has done a 3/4 week PPL course and has any advice, please let me know!

Thanks guys (and gals).

Alan.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

big.al,

Glad to help. The process for getting the M-1 is straight forward and you will not have much trouble getting it.

You mentioned saving up your money to do the PPL course. I would like to suggest that you give yourself 4 weeks for the course instead of 3. If you do, you will have a greater chance of completing. We ask our students to plan for 4 weeks. This way there is less pressure on you, especially with the distractions of having the extended family with you.

If you will be training in Orlando, check with the school to see how they are working under the Class B Airspace. There are special restrictions for operating under Class B Airspace due to Sept. 11 Attacks. One of the restrictions being no student solo flights in or under Class B Airspace which is the airspace of Orlando. I am sure that they have organized ways around this restriction.

Good Luck,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Alan,


I do not know if you saw the thread, I posted the M-1 visa information last night. Click here to View. (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=011103)

Night,

Richard

[slim_slag]

Capn Naples said

If you will be training in Orlando, check with the school to see how they are working under the Class B Airspace. There are special restrictions for operating under Class B Airspace due to Sept. 11 Attacks. One of the restrictions being no student solo flights in or under Class B Airspace which is the airspace of Orlando. I am sure that they have organized ways around this restriction.

Nah, this NOTAM has been out a few days now.

FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS (SEE DEFINITION) WITHIN "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE", EXCEPT THE BOSTON "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE" AREA AND EXCEPT FOR OPERATIONS WITHIN THE NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON DC TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTION AREAS, VFR FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS AND SUPERVISED STUDENT SOLO OPERATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED FOR SINGLE AND MULTI-ENGINE NON-TURBOJET POWERED, NON-POWERED, AND ROTOR DRIVEN PISTON POWERED AIRCRAFT WITH A MAXIMUM CERTIFICATED TAKEOFF GROSS WEIGHT OF 6000 POUNDS OR LESS.

I just LUV it when I catch the instructors out:) especially the gimmes.

[GoneWest]

Slim - hate to spoil your smart a**e day, but I'm not convinced that you have caught him out - I too am under the impression (having spoken to the FAA) that student solo is not allowed at Orlando...their airspace is not purely "enhanced" class B. They also have some real class B.......and I did read recently that solo students are not allowed in the area.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

slim_slag,

This Forum is not a contest to prove other people wrong, its to help wannabies.

Gone West is correct, there is a restriction on solo flights in Orlando.

Sincerely,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[slim_slag]

GoneWest..

Student solo is now and has always (well, apart from the few weeks after Sep 11th) been permitted in 'real' class B. The student pilot requires specific training and an endorsement from his CFI (FAR 61.95), just like he does to solo.

Capn Naples....

I too am not here to 'prove other people wrong'. If incorrect information is posted to somebody just about to set out across the Atlantic with thousands of pounds in his wallet, it is important he gets the correct facts. The facts are that student solo is permitted under supervision in enhanced class B. As class B is a subset of ECB it is permitted in both (with the proviso as above).

Of course you need a clearance to operate in class B, and that can be denyed by ATC at any time. They may well not authorize student flight operations in class B, as they always could. However, the NOTAM explicity permits it.

Its important for everybody flying the USA right now (as always of course) to check the NOTAMS, especially those claiming to teach. There is a NOTAM out there which states that deadly force can be used if you are even in the 'close proximity' to restricted area.

Anyway to both of you, I used the :) character for good reason. If I had wanted to be a smart ass I wouldn't have bothered. Remember that even instructors learn off their students, and we should not be so arrogant to think otherwise.

Anybody who wants the real picture should check official sources of NOTAMS and not the rumours, rantings and ramblings found on pprune :)

PS You don't need an M1 visa to learn to fly in the US at your local part 61 school - but that would be another thread. Or would it :)

[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]

[slim_slag]

OK,

I've made a phone call to the FSDO handling Orlando.

They initially interpreted the NOTAM to mean that supervised solo flight within ECB meant flight in the traffic pattern with the CFI monitoring the radio.

They obviously realised this intepretation was bollocks (as it is, the NOTAM did not specify pattern work or anything like this at all) and they now accept that supervised solo means what it always did.

Though please check yourself of course :)

Cheers

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Hey Slim-Slag

I don't think anyone has a problem with being corrected, but it could be done in a respectful manner!!

As for the Visas, I suggest that you either call the US Embassy in london or take a look at the web page! I have a friend that was turned around for exactly what you said you could do!!!

Take a look at: http://www.us-immigration.org/visa_vistourist.htm

It plainly states is you are to study that you need another Visa - prove me wrong and I will be happy to rescind my stance!

[slim_slag]

What's a student?
http://www.ins.gov/graphics/glossary4.htm#S

Student - As a nonimmigrant class of admission, an alien coming temporarily to the United States to pursue a full course of study in an approved program in either an academic (college, university, seminary, conservatory, academic high school, elementary school, other institution, or language training program) or a vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution.

Part 61 flight schools do not fit into any of the above. Don't believe what people who run 'approved' schools tell you, it's in their interest to scare foreign students into coming to them.

Now the INS Inspector can deny entry to anybody coming into the US. Your buddy must have said the wrong things to a guy who didn't fully understand the rules, but the INS inspector was quite within his rights to refuse entry.

INS inspectors get it wrong you know. The US embassy in London will also err on the side of caution, which is sensible for them to do. Have you ever got off the phone with somebody who obstinately insists on giving you the 'safe' answer, when you know things in practice work differently? What if the Embassy tells you to go over on a visa waiver and the INS inspector refuses entry at his whim, you are going to be pissed and that is not what the embassy wants.

Don't get me wrong. If you at all worried then you should get the M1 visa and tie yourself to a specific school. Its not neccessary though in US immigration law if you can enter under the visa waiver scheme, which is my point.

I am not a US immigration attorney and not licenced to practice law, I got this information from my brother who is. He has done work for US flight schools and knows the law and a lot of INS guys.

Regards

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Hmmmmm......

Slim-Slag:

I think you answered my question!

The JAA PPL needs to be completed at an approved school by the CAA - approved school. They then approve the course of study ie the AOPA syllabus - approved course.
On the approved course you follow a syllabus with Instructors in ground school and flight training.

Does this not follow as you quoted:

"...in an approved program in either an academic (college, university, seminary, conservatory, academic high school, elementary school, other institution..."

Therefore being a student you need a Visa!

I venture to guess that all wannabees will make up their own mind but in my experience getting a visa, and my friend who just got turned around for not having a visa, I would personally suggest to all Wannabees:

"Get a Visa to cover yourself - it is so easy to get and you will be covering all bases leaving nothing to chance. .."

Somebody just posted the form I think but can't find the thread at the mo.

[slim_slag]

Hmmmmm......

Slim-Slag:

I think you answered my question!


Now then Facts, show some respect :)

I do not think I answered your question at all.

The JAA PPL needs to be completed at an approved school by the CAA - approved school. They then approve the course of study ie the AOPA syllabus - approved course.
On the approved course you follow a syllabus with Instructors in ground school and flight training.

Nowhere was JAA PPL mentioned in this thread. Personally I would not come to the US to do a JAA PPL. I would do the FAA PP-ASEL, then time build here until you get the required 75 hours or so, go home and convert.

Advantages of this are
1) More choice of flight schools. Probably cheaper and you can easily move if you don't like the setup at the first one. Shop Around.
2) You get to 75 hours at less cost. You are going to get to 75 hours at some stage so may as well do it cheaply.
3) The experience you get here is pretty good. Having flown GA quite a bit in both countries, I would rate US > UK. Yikes, new thread!!!!!!
4) More experienced when you do your JAA PPL. This can only be a good thing. Obviously you will need to be retrained in new 'bad habits' :) but that's all extra dual and dual is always a good thing, IMO.

So, I do not think you should/could assume that everybody coming to the US is here to do the JAA. I would certainly advise against it.

Of course I would like to see people support flight schools back in the UK, they sorely need our money, but it's their money and they can spend it how you like.

Also, I doubt that the INS or US Goverment cares an iota about the CAA approval requirements. The flight school is either approved in the US system or not, it would be quite possible for a flight school to be 'UK' approved and not 'US' approved, though I don't see the point of not being US approved in this case.

Do you think I need a visa to go on a golf or tennis course, go to a medical conference where I will learn stuff? etc etc What is the spirit of the visa waiver scheme? Am I allowed to read reference books in the US if they are related to (say) nuclear physics? Can I learn how to ski?

If you come here primarily as a tourist you do not need a visa for incidental study as long as it is recreational.

When you get into the US don't say "I'm here to become a commercial pilot", say "I'm here on holiday but I've always fancied doing some flying lessons and I've got $10k in my pocket to give to the local flight school"

You get the drift?

The INS inspector will have a fit on the former, and drag you past the desk into the country on the latter. Remember, the INS inspector doesn't even have to let you into the coutry WITH a valid M1 visa.

What the INS guys is asking himself when you show up drunk and looking like crap after a delightful longhaul flight in World Traveller is..

1) Is this guy going to go home within 90 days?
2) Is this guy going to become a public charge? Break the law and go to jail?
3) Is this guy going to spend loadsamoney?
4) Is this guy going to put a Yank out of work?

That's all they really care about. They don't give too much of a toss about the Brits, thats why we are on the Visa Waiver scheme. Now if you were an Iraqi........

I agree entirely that if you are at all in doubt, get the visa. I said that earlier too. Just make sure you choose the flight school and have flown with the instructor in advance. Pretty hard to do I'd say from your computer terminal desk in Croyden :).

What you do not want to do is get an M1 visa for "xyz flying school", find out they suck, so ****** off down the road to the really cool part 61 school. That would put you in violation of your US admission terms, and if the INS found out they would rip your goolies off. You would not find it easy to enter the US after that.

All in my opinion of course , which I am sure some here already consider worthless :) Me no lawyer!

Regards

[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag because I got JAA/FAA/CAA totally mixed up. We need a single authority, preferabley FAA :) and I also got another smart-ass commment in too :) Ho Ho!)
]

[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]

[big.al]

Guys -

I started this thread for some simple advice, and I'm now more confused than ever!

Yes, I AM doing a JAA PPL, and I am NOT doing vocational training (at least not yet, now is definately not the time)...

I really need a simple answer - do I need an M1 visa or not? My flying school at Kissimmee say no, others (including flight schools who have replied to my thread) have said yes, and I've also seen every answer in between!

Frankly I think the only way to be sure is to write to the US Embassy and get a written reply from them, so that if I turn up without a visa I'll at least have a letter from the US Embassy proving that I did some homework. I realise that the INS official still has the final say, but I imagine they are there to catch people trying to avoid the regulations, not those who have made genuine efforts to comply.

If any US INS official who reads this site could give me some direct advice, from the horses mouth so to speak, I'd be grateful, but I didn't want to start a debate on the pros and cons of JAA vs FAA or one flight school vs another. This is simply about ensuring that I comply with the laws of another country and thus ensure I can have a good holiday and (hopefully) come back with a PPL ticket...

Regards

big.al

[FrontWindowSeat]

Al,

Let's see if I can provide a useful summary. I'm not an immigration lawyer, or a representative of any fight schools (JAA or FAA), but I do have experience of dealing with the INS.

The first thing to remember is that the INS is a poorly resourced beaurocracy, staffed by many people who don't understand the rules properly themselves. There is always a risk that the US immigration officer meeting you at your port of entry might be having a bad day, feel ultra-cautious, or just dislike your face or clothing. [In my personal experience they are usually either very courteous and professional, or just going through the motions and don't really listen. In either case I've never had a problem.]

So you've got two options:

Get an M1 visa. This probably isn't legally necessary since PPL training falls into a grey area, but it is watertight and you shouldn't have any problems with US immigrations. The disadvantage is you have to apply for & pay for a visa, and you are then stuck with one school.

Use the visa waiver. The advantage is that it's simple and since you are entering as a tourist, you can change flight schools as often as you want. The big disadvantage is that US immigration are more likely to deny you entry, especially with the current paranoia about foreign flight students. Bluntly, if you do not look like a white Anglo-Saxon, then don't even consider this route.

So, get an M1 if you want to be safe & don't mind the restrictions, and use visa waiver if you want the flexibility and are prepared to take the risk of being denied entry.

The USA is a great place to fly, and I wish you luck with your flight training.

[slim_slag]

Big Al,

Sorry that this has turned into some xxx contest over whether you legally need a visa to come to the US to get a PPL.

I would have used a naughty adjective to describe 'contest' but the PPRUNE system already turned a perfectly decent Anglo Saxon word, used by Hugh Grant in 4 weddings & a funeral into ****** :)

What I would do in your case is pick a school and get an M1 visa. Go to Florida, Arizona or California. Go to Airnav (http://www.airnav.com/) & look for Orlando, Falcon Field, Montgomery Field and Long Beach and call around until you find a school which sounds good. Turn up and have a great time.

Make sure you budget for more than you expect. Tax, accomodation, transport, beer (and if you are single with a Brit Accent, women) and the inevitable more hours than the schools advertise are all expensive extras.

If you need more specifics please post, I am familiar with all the above airfields except MCO.

Rainbow Aviation at LGB is a good start, but they don't do the JAA. A fellow named Singh ????? will do at the same field, LGB is a great place to learn.

Regards.

[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

big.al,

I can tell you 100% that you need a visa. I am a school which offers the visa. I am sure that there are going to be many posts that say I am just trying to scare people onto a visa. I personally do not understand why people want to lie to the Immigration Officer to enter the U.S. and risk deportation. If you are caught training without the proper visa you could risk loosing your chance to enter the U.S. for the rest of your life. I know this is unlikely, but it is the extreme case of what could happen to you.

Several years ago, I decided to make the primary training that Naples Air Center would offer to be C.A.A. and later J.A.A. This meant a major focus on European Students. Therefore to do the training properly we needed to get authorization to issue M-1 visas. This process took years and thousands of dollars.

I currently have employees in place that issue the visas and even more employees that oversee the quality control to guarantee top performance of the program.

I know this sounds expensive, it is. I do not charge the student one penny for the M-1 visa. I get insulted when people say I am scaring students into visas. The reason I offer the M-1 because it is the right thing to do.

It is part of the way I run my school, no shortcuts. Everything is 100% by the book.

I hope that gives a definitive answer.

Sincerely,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

P.S. I had posted the M-1 visa form in another thread, the form is simple to fill out. Read the Thread on the M-1 visa here and see. (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=011103)

[mad_jock]

Big Al.

Just to give you some background 15 FTO's in Fl have gone bust since the 11th and alot of students have canceled course so there is a bit of hassel (may be a bit strong, more manovering) going on at the moment between the ones left. If immigration really comes down hard on the M1 visa it basically means that the majority of FTO's servicing the JAR market will go bust.

My personal opinion is that Kissimmee would be a bad idea because it is inside enhanced class B air space which will cause problems when it comes to do your solo's.

As for Richard's operation (Naples) i can only say you could do a lot worse than going there. I have just spent the afternoon with Gerard one of his instructors learning to fly the twin and if the others are half as good as him you should have no problems.

But its up to yourself if you are a born bullsh*ter and think you would have no problems bending the truth to an official you can save money by going to a none visa school. But if you want a stress free trip over pay the extra and go to a M1 school. You will usually find that if a school cuts costs in one direction that they have also cut costs in others.

If you have time send a letter to the US immigration and do as they say.

MJ

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Query,

In this thread you stated:

QUERY
Just another number

Member # 37853
posted 02 October 2001 23:42
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I did look into this and confirmed that the visa story is an old one used, by UK flying clubs and US FAA part 141 schools, to frighten people off JAA training in the US. You do NOT need a visa for a vacation during which you are recreational flying (includes JAA PPL course)in the US unless you are doing FAA accredited training- isn't that unlikely or stupid if you are a Brit?
You are eligible for a visa waiver, just like any other European tourist, but the decision is always that of the officer at the port of entry. Is it any surprise that silly sods, who say they are student pilots or give the impression that they might want to work in the U.S., have created a problem for themselves, when there isn't one?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 67 | From: Yorks | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Please note a newspaper article out of the Charlotte Herald Tribune (http://www.heraldtribune.com/2charlotte.cfm?ID=55625) dated November 9, 2001.

I will list two small quotes but I suggest you read the entire artile.

"PUNTA GORDA -- Border Patrol agents handcuffed three Tunisian flight students Tuesday and took them away for reported immigration violations."

"The agents arrested the students for "violating immigration statutes," said Joe Mellia, assistant chief of the Miami Border Patrol office."

Be Safe,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[onehunga]

Just to add my two cents worth. I returned a few weeks back from completing my ppl at britannia. I did NOT bother with a visa and was not challenged by the immigration officer at all. I was worried though like you probably are as I had read earlier threads on pprune concerning the need to get a visa before I left. As it turned out I ran out of time so couldnt have gotten one in time anyway.

When I was out there a few guys at our school (and staying at the same house as me) had problems as they both put the same address on their immigration forms and when asked if they were travelling with anyone else they clearly said no as they had never met (bad luck indeedy). It all turned out okay because a simple call was made by immigration to the school who sorted out matters. The school also has a letter on immigration letterhead (I saw it!!) which categorically states that you do NOT need a visa for a ppl, irrespective of what some fine point of the law on the US embassy website says.

Mad Jock - you must have heard the same story when you were out there?