Fleet Forums and Union Busting

[Turbo Beaver]

It the FF's were optional, they would definitely die the way of the AEB lunches. Most pilots at Cathay don't want to talk to the managers because nothing ever gets done. It is just a way to get your career (what is left of one) slammed down the dumpsters if you speak up.

All our flying managers want to know is that you tell them it is a great company and they are doing a great job. Every one of them are ineffective.

The pilots do not have any say in their lives and that is the way they want to keep it. How long have they been trying to fix the roster? It never gets changed because they don't want it to change, even if the flying managers say they are trying.

In a couple of years their will be another shuffle and some new managers will come in and say they will try to get something done. They will try to start up some kind of communication with the Pilots to say hey "I am trying to change things" forum.

This whole thing is just a tummy rubbing exercise when the whole flight operation is dying of stomach cancer. It doesn't help, but it makes you look like you are doing something. You either treat the cause of the symptoms or fop is going to die a slow and painful death. Or you are going to have an accident; anyway the results are the same.

Under the threat or even theoretical threat of a union, Shefferman (a Union-Buster) advised management to institute a device called an employee roundtable. Purportedly designed to give workers a way to air their grievances and influence company policy, in reality the roundtable becomes management?s tap into the worker grapevine and it?s repressive thumb on the informal worker power structure. The regular group meetings provided management with a system for planting information, as well as for identifying and controlling the leaders among employees."

Confessions of a Union Buster

Read the book Gentlemen!

Good luck to all the new joiners.


(A Classic captain trainee attempting to check out on the 'glass cockpit'of an A-340.) "Now I know what a dog feels like watching TV."

[pilotabroad]

Whats wrong with the rostering? Now that pilots are no longer going sick (thinking they are getting the roster they want, but infact shafting their work mates), the roster is stable.

If it wasn't for the stupid AOA work to rule we would still get extra G days instead of Reserve. The company is only protecting the schedule. The AOA is to blame for the rostering of minimum G days.

[tone-uncage-fire]

We had a reserve, OJ, dinner last night. 4 of us all in the same building, same rank, same fleet.... all on reserve for the same period.
I concur that the roster is very stable at the moment.... long may it continue. It would be nice though if, with a bit more trust, we could reduce the numbers on reserve....and have a few more G's.

[Turbo Beaver]

All very nice. What about the 20 year guy who can't guy the one day off that he wants? The company publishes the roster and you get what they give. The system they have now is nothing short of a joke.

Have any of you guys ever had any kind of bidding roster. By the sounds of it, you didn't or you would kinow what I am talking about.

Cathay is the greatest company in the world. WOW! What an airline.

[shortly]

Well TB I doubt your feet are nailed to the floor.

[Turbo Beaver]

Just a second I will check. Nope not nailed to the floor but thanks for asking. Just wondering how many handles does Nick and Jagman have? Just curious.

Rosters are stable because pilots are flying sick. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

We don't have any input to our roster what so ever. We are allowed to ask for 5 joker days every six months and have to give 3 months notice to get them. Seems to make a lot of sense to me. Over 95% of our roster are the same except twice a year when we go into and out of summer schedule. Why can't I ask for certain days off every month depending on my position and fleet?

Cathay Pacific does not want to give any of it employee's any kind of control over their lives, period. People are in there saying they are trying to change things, but nothing ever gets done.

I am sorry, something did get done, we moved our LAX hotel from South Central LA back to Torrance. Job well done.

[tone-uncage-fire]

TB,

Sorry old chum but you neglect to mention that we can "request" either generic flights "please let me fly to ANC as much as possible".... or specific flights "I'd like to do CX 123, to FFR, on 23 June"
And we can do the same for consectutive days off EVERY month (above and beyond the joker system).

I for one have had great success with my requests through 'crewdirect'........in fact, Oct is the 1st month this year I havent got a requested flight.

*Why do so many (managers & pilots) post here with such selective accts of what really goes on (or is available)?

As for the Joker system: so far it has a 100% success record. With 1700+ pilots requesting 20400 days off every year, Id say they've done pretty well.
Food for thought: If your 12 annual joker days are effectively guaranteed...... doesnt that make them more like extra leave? In fact its better than leave because it doesnt have to run Mon-Sun.

Dont let the facts get in the way of a good story.


:confused:

[nudger]

*

[Cpt. Underpants]

March, May and September I didn't fly a SINGLE pattern as published. In addition, I had FIFTEEN roster changes in five days, slowed to 22 changes in 14 days.

Sure, I get EXACTLY what I want. NOT.

T-U-F I can excuse you for "California Dreaming" over the first job where you weren't expected to kill the people you met on your travels, but this is not how airlines are supposed to treat staff, sonny.

[tone-uncage-fire]

Nudger.... couldnt agree with your last comment more!

Cpt Undies, oldman (assuming I'm 'sonny') Im terribly sorry to hear your tales-of-woe; agreed you hear them all too often....and yes staff shouldnt be treated so poorly - I am simply adding a voice that is not all doom & gloom. The truth is my roster is pretty damn good. I'm not apologising for that nor arguing with you, we are all products of our own experiences.

Best wishes, TUF

[Turbo Beaver]

As for the Joker system: so far it has a 100% success record. With 1700+ pilots requesting 20400 days off every year, Id say they've done pretty well.

PopGun: Where did you get those numbers? Must be inside info?

By the way, can you ask someone about my retirement fund? Can you ask why it is worth the same now as it was 3 years ago and I have been putting into it for 3 years. I will admit I am a Pilot and not an investment banker.

Just quote from the GMA with regards to the allowances in Adelaide for training:

The recent change was initiated as a result of feedback from course participants, of which there are different types. Some are cadets, some are direct entry pilots on finesse courses, and there are pilots doing just handling courses and Command skills courses. Previously, these groups had been paid different rates, which is obviously ILLOGICAL since the cash allowance is meant for the same purpose.

Then why do we have A-Scale, B+ Scale, B Scale, and two different retirement schemes one of them is sub-standard. Why do we have Pilots doing the same job but getting paid less. Why do we have Relief Commanders getting F/O pay, while taking on a huge responsibility? Clearly we are doing the same job.

Now Nick you have being saying for years A Scale is about right. So why are B-Scalers paid 20-30% less and have a sub-standard retirement scheme? Clearly this must be ILLOGICAL because the GMA says so. Just can't figure this out. Must be some kind of bust or something.

As I said before about the FF's, make them optional and see how many people attend. It will go the way of your AEP lunches. If anyone spoke up now about any kind of disagreement with the company, your career will be going south in quite a hurry.

Fact. Look how many guys got Category B for their Commands. How about the Captain that just got busted down the F/O because he does not agree with the way the company did things and he expressed his view on the Flight Deck and the pilots turned him in. Do you really expect anybody to go to these forums and say what is on their mind?

You have your head in the sand farther than you think.

Just as a comparison, I left one bush outfit for another bush outfit, but this one has 747's. And no my feet are not glued, nailed, or stapled gunned to the floor.


Never fly the 'A' model of anything.
- Ed Thompson

[tone-uncage-fire]

Sorry TB just a lowly B scale 'bus driver!

1700 pilots x 6 jokers days each every 6 months (ie: 12 a year) = 20400 days.

The reference of 100% came out on 'groupwise' about 3 months ago.

Ref ADL allowances, I read the same in Crews News and laughed at the double std too!

Sorry, laughing my johnson off that you may think I was NR...classic! :)

[VR-HFX]

TB

__________________________________________
As for the Joker system: so far it has a 100% success record.
With 1700+ pilots requesting 20400 days off every year,
Id say they've done pretty well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is simple math not insider info.

___________________________________________
By the way, can you ask someone about my retirement fund?
Can you ask why it is worth the same now as it was 3 years
ago and I have been putting into it for 3 years. I will admit I
am a Pilot and not an investment banker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I fear you don't have to be an investment banker to work it out.
Apart from property (not in HK of course) most investments have
taken a dive over the past 12 months tracking the global equity
markets. Most fund managers play the index game and will swear
on a stack of bibles they have done you well if they have beaten
the index...up or down. Not much you can do about it I am afraid
except stick pins in voodoo dolls and hope the world is soon rid
of the greedy w#nkers that have the gall to call themselves
investmnet bankers.

Ref:Adelaide
_____________________________________________
The recent change was initiated as a result of feedback from
course participants, of which there are different types. Some
are cadets, some are direct entry pilots on finesse courses,
and there are pilots doing just handling courses and Command
skills courses. Previously, these groups had been paid different
rates, which is obviously ILLOGICAL since the cash allowance is
meant for the same purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I would think this is analagous to overnight allowances rather
than pay scales although I agree with you that things need to
be straightened out. I will probably be roasted at the stake for
suggesting A scalers push this barrow but it is the only way to
get some harmony and unity back into the pilot body.

For technical reasons it is not practical to merge the two
retirement schemes. One scheme gets closed off to new entrants
at a certain time and a new scheme started. BA also did this.

The scheme has to be matched to the COS otherwise you could
end up in a situation where the whole thing could go belly up
with younger guys losing all their super pay-ins to fund A-scale
retirements. Get someone more skilled than I to explain how this works.

_____________________________________________
Fact. Look how many guys got Category B for their Commands.
How about the Captain that just got busted down the F/O because
he does not agree with the way the company did things and he
expressed his view on the Flight Deck and the pilots turned him in.
Do you really expect anybody to go to these forums and say what
is on their mind?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Expressing one's view on the flight deck used to go no further.
It is a sad testimony to the times we live in that the Kai Tak
Convention is now broken so easily. Personally I would feel
safer mouthing off in an open forum than on the flight deck
these days. The question you rightly ask though.....is how safe?

[Liam Gallagher]

Kind of relates to the thread...has anyone heard anything about the trialling of computer produced rosters in the coming months?

[Turbo Beaver]

Why don't we have a retirement fund similar to the old one but with lower factors? I believe this would be acceptable if at the end of the day we knew what we had. The old retirement scheme guarantees a certain amount at the end of the day. If I knew what I would expect at the end of a career I could save for what I think I might need. Right now I have no idea. If the market goes for a crap when I am close to retirement, I can lose 30% or more. I just want to know what is there for me at the end of the tunnel.

Pilots with other schemes know they would be getting XXX?/month when they retire. With the new scheme I have no idea. I don't think it is too much to ask, since we are suppose to work for a major airline.

Investment bankers are like used car salesman. They say the product is good until you need it. I don't want that with my retirement. Nick has spit out numbers saying that I will get 5% per year on average. That has not happened and I can't wait until retirement to find out if he is correct. If Nick says I will have 5% per year, put it in writing. If it makes more, he keeps what is over 5%. Something has to be better that what we have now.

I agree mouthing off on an anonymous forum is safer than stating your opinion with management. It is a shame I have to use Pprune to let the company know how I feel, but the CEO and the Managers of Cathay Flight Operations has made this the only way. Make the FF's optional and see how many shows up.

Does anybody think that a HKG based Captain should get paid 30% less for doing the same job? Do you think that a Relief Commander (basically and F/O) should not be paid more for the extra responsibly? If the RC screws up, he is finished. You should be paid more for extra responsibly. That is why a Captain gets paid more.

We have positions within Cathay called Junior First Officers. Basically a First Officers but gets paid a lot less with less benefits and leave. He is not a real First Officer (in the eyes of the company) so he gets paid less. He does the same job though. Cathay started this position stating that the S/O's don?t have the experience/qualifications to be F/O's. My opinion is if you can sit in the right seat and do the job, you are a F/O. if you cannot, back to the S/O's seat or the door. If this philosophy holds true, why don't they have Junior Captain positions?

I can read the accident report now. Why did the aircraft hit the mountain? Oh the Junior First Officers screwed up. What's a Junior First Officer? He is First Officer, but he is not good enough so we made him a Junior First Officer. Why has Nick failed about 20 JF/O's?

We should have Junior Captains. Why did the aircraft hit the mountain? Oh the Junior Captain screwed up. What's a Junior Captain? Oh he wasn't good enough to be a real Captain, so we made him a Junior Captain.

Makes perfect sense to me.

You can request all that stuff on rostering but if you are the # 1 Pilot, #1 in that position, #1 on that fleet there is no way of knowing if you will get to see your kids at the play. Besides Crew Control/Nick keeps track of who answers their phone on days off. When your name is pulled up, there are comments next to your name. So if you request trips or days off, depending what is beside your name, you might get it. Pilots have requested 5 days off at the beginning of the month and got the last 5 days of the month off. Those pilots have given up on the system because it doesn't work. If you have one pilot requesting a day off and he gets it, that is 100% success rate. That is what I love about statistics, you can manipulate them to say whatever you like.

Again, expressing one's view at the FF's is a certain way to get yourself demoted in whatever position you hold. Never miss the opportunity to keep your mouth shut. I would love to tell Nick what I think, but I can't. He will and has held up careers and totally destroyed others. And he is the next DFO in waiting.

These FF's are a classic busting exercise. Straight out of the book (if you read it). Best thing to do is not say anything and protect yourself.

Feet are still not nailed, glued, taped, cemented to the floor.

When a flight is proceeding incredibly well, something was forgotten.
- Robert Livingston, 'Flying The Aeronca'

[VR-HFX]

TB

Why don't we have a retirement fund similar to the old one but with lower factors?

A very valid question. It is really up to the trustees of the fund to decide on the investment strategy. Contact them. You have a right to know what the investment stratgey is. I suspect that funds with principal guarantees or minimum return guarantees cannot be hedged in the current market.

It is a shame I have to use Pprune to let the company know how I feel, but the CEO and the Managers of Cathay Flight Operations has made this the only way.

I am sure many feel as you do. The only thing I can say is that they are not all ogres. I do not think that NR will ruin your career if you put your views succinctly and constructively. But that's just my opinion.

Does anybody think that a HKG based Captain should get paid 30% less for doing the same job?

No I do not and I hope it changes.

why don't they have Junior Captain positions?

Actually in the early years (long before even I got here) they did have 3 bar junior captains.

My view FWIW is that the company should strive to simplify the whole ball of wax. Just have S/Os, F/O's and captains. Salaries based on seniority and seniority levels dictating additional responsibilities such as relief/cruise command etc.

Why has Nick failed about 20 JF/O's?

Can't answer you I'm afraid. I do know that there are a number of very embittered people sitting in the lower to middle sections of the seniority list. We all have a few beers and sometimes say more than we should. This rarely got back to the management. Sadly this is no longer the case. Those that wear their hearts on their sleeve are often unjustly penalised. This is not as much a management problem as a problem in the prefects' room.

Rostering is a can of worms. My only advice, based on experience, is to be pleasant or, at the very least, civil to everyone in crew control and you will find people will go out of their way to help if they can. Scratch a few backs and you will get a payback. Not so different to the real world.

Again, expressing one's view at the FF's is a certain way to get yourself demoted in whatever position you hold.

You may well be correct. The FF's are not being set up as a bust but they may well be perceived that way given all that has gone on in the past 16 months.

I would love to tell Nick what I think, but I can't.

It is a sad state of affairs that has led to you feeling this way. I can only say that NR is interested in constructive dialogue. He is less interested in being the 'Wailing Wall'.

Destroying careers is not what he is about regardless of the stories. Indeed he has resurrected a few but that never gets any airplay. I am not an apologist for the incoming DFO but the reality is some guys can destroy their own careers without any help from management.

I thought your post was very constructive and cannot imagine that NR would be upset by any of the points you make.

Cheers

[Turbo Beaver]

I rather not take that chance as I am of a different opinion of Nick . He can and did end careers.

He was the first to say "We'll just fire 30 pilots and the rest will tow the line".

Nick doesn't want constructive dialogue. Nick will sit down a listen but nothing really gets done. He just listens and sees what he is able to get away with.

The way Nick works that if he wants something from you, he just puts a letter in your mailbox and it says "sign this new contract or you will be fired". Ring any bells in "99. Then the one last year after he fired the 49ers. This is you new contract, sign it. Don't even get to choose to stay on the old one. Didn't get any choices. Even though we sent letters in stating we want to stay on the old contract, he just ignored them. Don't I get to reject a new contract if it is of lesser value? I thought was the law in Hong Kong but that is a different story.

What about the new contract that he is going to give us in six months, do we get a choice? I highly doubt it.

United just got billions from their unions by sitting down and talking.

Nick is not interested in dialogue. He is only interested in repressing the pilots so he can get his bonus.

We might be talking about two different Nicks. I am just going by history of the Nick that I know.

It definitely a sad state of affairs.

[edited to delete surnames, no more thanks. BlueEagle - Moderator]

[BlunderBus]

:mad: If you call one trip and 2.5 weeks standby every month a stable roster I'd call you unstable!

L.A..............5 days off L.A............5 days off...L.A.....................5 days off..L.A.5 days off........................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz sound thrilling? but it IS stable.(only if you're based in L.A. of course) the hong kong guys get this pattern up the ying yang too but we only find out about it 45 minutes before we go and do it! Funny ..i did read a previous post about stable rosters with FOUR guys sitting around on ...STANDBY....talking about how stable it all is! I'll bet they weren't having a beer,or making any social plans for the other two weeks/month they have on standby!!!
And for the REAL DREAMERS who think we don't get called on standby.............stroll on!