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Piper Warrior Pilot
30th Sep 2002, 22:21
Just a quick question about RT from the Jeremy Pratt books. In there it states that after start up you should request radio check on your frequency then request departure information and then taxi instructions.

When i fly, after start up i request radio check and taxi instructions in one, not mentioning which frequency i want the radio check on. Then i taxi to the power check area and after checks call for departure info.

Which one is right. Is the Jeremy Pratt book incorrect or am i or are neither incorrect.

Sounds like a silly question probably but i thought id better ask out of curiosity.

Thanks

AerBabe
30th Sep 2002, 22:30
You'll find that a lot of the 'official' R/T gets mutated (sorry... old habits!) depending on where you fly from, and who instructs you. For example, I don't usually ask for a radio check at all from Coventry....
When I do ask for radio check, for example if I've landed away somewhere, I ask for taxi instructions at the same time.
Stick with what your instructor tells you for now, and when you have your PPL make your own mind up. :)

drauk
30th Sep 2002, 23:43
The examples in CAP 413 vary - at least one example includes asking for a radio check and taxi instructions in one call.

It does state that you should include the frequency in the request for a radio check, though few people seem to do so.

carb
1st Oct 2002, 00:32
I don't bother asking for radio check at start-up -- when I first flew in the UK I did as the book says to, but most of the time ATC would just ignore the radio check bit -- anyhow, I figure that if someone replies, then it's safe to assume they are hearing me reasonably loud & clear!

Piper Warrior Pilot
1st Oct 2002, 07:23
Yeah but surely if you request a radio check and they do not reply to it then they arent following correct procedure. Saying that i dont assume anyone is gonna strll up to the tower and tell them that.

I think ill get a copy of CAP413 and stick to it no matter what.

Brief change of subject here. When climbing after takeoff different instructors tell you different things. For example, some climb at 70 knots some at 75 and others tell you to at 80. So i pick 80 and stick with it.

Does it matter what each different instructor tells you to do.

RotorHorn
1st Oct 2002, 07:28
Blackpool is quite happy to accomodate a radio check before requesting initial taxying instructions etc.

However, as a helo pilot, I was never taught to do one of these... my (ex-military) instructors reasoning being, that if you made a request for taxying instructions and no one answered, your radio wasn't working!!:D

p.s. we have take off speeds specified in the POH (Pilot Operating Handbook). Presume you must have something similar for your fixed-wing jobby...

Evo
1st Oct 2002, 07:40
CAP413 is fine for the RT exams, but I never follow it exactly when flying. Keep it clear and simple and nobody will care if you're following the exact CAP413 formula.

In particular, I hate the suggested reply to 'pass your message'. So does everybody else, it seems, as nobody else seems to use it either :) I stick with a simple Who you are (G-ABCD, PA-28, from A to B), Where you are (overhead x, alt 2500 ft on QNH 1000), What you want (request FIS and MATZ crossing). Brief, to the point and if they want other information they'll ask - but it has only happened to me once, when Solent asked if I was VFR or IFR.

As for the climb, best rate of climb is 79kts in a Warrior, so your 80kts sounds perfect. However, it's normally a good idea to do what the instructor tells you - but if you don't agree, ask!

RotorHorn
1st Oct 2002, 07:47
I'm with Evo - keep it short and sweet and they'll ask if you miss something. Having said that, I always stick the 'VFR' bit in just before the 'from', e.g.

"helicopter G-ABCD, Robinson R44, VFR from A to B"

The 'helicopter' at the beginning warns them that I don't want to be fannying about with circuits when I'm inbound...;)

[edited to gloat about jumping the queue in the circuiit] :D

knobbygb
1st Oct 2002, 09:29
On the rate of climb issue, PWP, I too found it very confusing having numerous instructors while initially learning circuits (see 'How many instructors' thread). No two did a circuit exactly alike, whether it be climbout speeds, when to turn, pre-landing checks, approach speeds etc.

I used to get quite confused and flustered trying to remember what I needed to do to keep each one happy (I actually made notes at one point - 'Instructor XXX - climb out at 80kts' - and checked them before the lesson - sad eh?)

I solved the problem by talking through out loud what I was about to do and why. E.g. 'Climbing out at 80kts - best rate of climb'. This seemed to convince most people that I knew what I was doing and they let me get on with it my own way mostly.

Don D Cake
1st Oct 2002, 09:38
I tried yesterday to order a copy from Documedia. The CAA are apparantly changing it to lose leaf format. There are none of the old format left, the new format hasn't been printed, there are about 200 back orders and Documedia are not taking any more orders.

You can get a .pdf version from their website though....

CAP413 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.pdf)

skygazer
1st Oct 2002, 12:32
PDF version's OK from the website if you've got a decent speed connection. It's 161 pages long, so if you're printing it on a slow inkjet printer...........you may be some time!

Piper Warrior Pilot
1st Oct 2002, 12:53
Do you know where i can get a lose leaf CAP413 from the CAA?

Not the PDF one lol

Don D Cake
1st Oct 2002, 13:15
Documedia sell CAA publications on behalf of the CAA but as I mentioned they haven't got any CAP413s (their contact details are on the CAA website). They told me to call back in a couple of weeks.

I wouldn't print the .pdf version either but it can be very useful for sneaky revision whilst at work, you just have to be quick on the ALT TAB keys :D

sharpshot
1st Oct 2002, 13:17
Piper
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37 Windsor St.
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GL52 2DG...........if they have not moved

R/T very subjective from airfield to airfield.
Some will give clearance on Grnd delivery freq, some on grnd and if it is just a zone clearance, you may get it from Twr.
Our chaps, NATS, will always respond to request for an R/T check.
Personally, if you have two boxes, use one and you will find out how it's performing and before you get airborne, try the other box too.

FlyingForFun
1st Oct 2002, 13:49
Have to admit I've never looked at the Pratt books. But CAP413 is the only place to learn R/T for the exams. There are some differences between CAP413 and Thom, and in these cases CAP413 is what the exam is based on - I assume that Pratt is similar.

As for "real life", in general you can do what CAP413 says and it will work. The only real exception is the position report - I've never heard a "correct" position report, and I've spoken to one pilot who tried it just to see what happened, and reported that the LARS operator didn't have a clue what she was talking about!

Local procedures to tend to vary from one airport to the next. A bit of local knowledge often helps you do the same thing as the locals when visiting a field which you know. But if it's your first time at a new field, follow CAP413 and you won't go too wrong, in my experience.

FFF
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sennadog
1st Oct 2002, 14:05
Personally I tend to ask for a Radio Check and Taxi instructions in one call to save hogging the frequency. The only thing I don't do which I think you are supposed to is give a Readability reading back to the TWR as I reckon they have a big f**k off jobby anyway.:D

drauk
1st Oct 2002, 17:59
Piper Warrior Pilot, different instructors will recommend different speeds because a variety of different speeds can be used. True there is only one best-rate-of-climb, but that doesn't mean you can't climb at another speed, perhaps with good reason. For example, a higher speed will result in better forward visibility.

The important thing to remember if you are working towards your PPL is that the examiner will ask you, during the briefing (i.e. before going flying), what speeds you intend to use for various stages of the flight (others include cruise, downwind, approach, etc.). They (or you) will write it on a form and then check that you actually use that speed. As long as the speed is a reasonable choice (like 80knts in a Warrior) and you stick to it roughly, you'll be fine.

Despite the availability or otherwise of CAP 413, book 7 of the Trevor Thom series will get you through an RT exam - it's all in there.

StrateandLevel
1st Oct 2002, 18:29
If you have more than one radio and you wish to check them both, typically prior to an IFR flight, the first call will be a "radio check", i.e its purpose is just to check the radio. You can then change to the second radio and call for taxi or whatever you require.

The purpose of stating your frequency when you call is primarily aimed at situations where the ground operator monitors more than one frequency. If you don't say which one you are calling on then how do they know which one to reply to. This occurs if you use HF!

Most VFR fligts will probably only use one radio and there will only be one frequency, so these things are not always necessary, but when they are, you will know what to do. Similarly, if you don't have ATC you will not need a departure clearance. When you go to a field with ATC you may be given a departure clearance which is not a clearance to take-off.

Jeremy Pratt's book is meant to be a training publication, CAP 413 the latest update of which is due out today, is a reference book of recommended procedures.

martinbakerfanclub
6th Oct 2002, 21:47
Well, my personal opinion is a simple one, and its based on experience...when your in the air, the only judge ATC have of your flying ability is your RT. Simple as that. Talk rubbish on your initial call to enter a controlled section of airspace for example, and they WILL think twice before clearing you through.Be as professional as you possibly can, and your will recieve respcect back via the airwaves.
That point was given to me years back by an air traffic controller, and has been shown since to be a true one.
You would feel a loss of personal pride if you willingly allowed your flying skill's to go to rat****, so why is RT any different?

SCCM2theFlightDeck!
7th Oct 2002, 17:19
With regard to climb out speeds, get your hands on your aircraft Pilots Operating Handbook and check out the various performance speeds. I think you'll find that the best climb out speed for a PA28 161 is 79kts clean and 63kts best ROC. Of course its also config dependent. I find that if doing a short field departure with flaps 25deg set for t/o on a PA28, 50kts rotate and then 65kts initial climb speed gets you a very impressive rate of performance (off the deck in no time and good ROC) En route climb speed is quoted at 87kts. Some schools will seemingly quote t-off and landing speeds in various configs that are a bit higher than the P.O.H. This can create problems in itself tho' as a higher than recommended approach speed in full flap config on something like a Warrior is going to create more float and a longer landing roll - not good on a short field!!!!