Why the extra cost?

[stevehanmer]

Hello all

First time user here.

As a relative newcomer to this flying business i was wondering why it is seemingly more expensive to train in the UK than in many other places in the world? Is the standard of training in the UK far superior? Or are we just another part of the Great British rip off.

Does the country of training have any bearing on future employers thinking when applying for jobs?

I read another thread which said that you can do a recognised course in Oz for a fraction of the cost, if this is the case why aren't all wannabees heading straight down there?

Any reaction would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

H

[scroggs]

H-man,
there are many, many reasons why flying training is relatively expensive here. An unco-operative tax regime, the cost of the CAA and JAA beurocracies, the costs of running airports and small aircraft in such a crowded country, high labour and social costs, etc, etc.
The fact that flying training is cheaper elsewhere is somewhat irrelevant, as, if you wish to work in the JAA area (Europe, roughly), you must have a JAA licence. Sure, you can go get a licence in Australia or South Africa (but probably not, for the moment I suspect, America), but you then have the cost of converting it to a JAA licence on your return. This is not cheap!
If, of course, you have the right to live and work in those other countries, there is little point in spending the money to get a JAA licence and then converting it to their version; you'd be better off doing the licence in those countries.
Sorry, but there it is!

[foghorn]

Just to add to Scroggs posting, here are some more detailed reasons why the cost of aircraft rental and instruction is higher in Europe and the UK than in certain other parts of the world...

- High duty on AVGAS (80p+ a litre as opposed to <40p).
- High cost of land (= higher aerodrome and parking fees).
- Low aircraft utilisation rates due to weather.
- Costly spare parts due to the distance from aircraft manufacturers.
- High cost of compliance with JAA/CAA bureaucracy and the government insistance that the CAA is self-funding via its fees.
- High cost of living and high social costs means a higher cost of labour (instructors, engineers, ops and admin personnel, and doctors!)
- No support or subsidy at the local level means that airports have to charge high parking and landing fees and often have poor facilities.
- VAT is chargeable on rental or training rates.
- All the above factors conspire to make GA a small marketplace, which removes savings due to scale and so compounds the high prices.

Now the US has plenty of space, subsidised airports, a subsidised FAA, good weather (in the South), less regulation, low social costs, most of the world's GA manufacturers and few taxes on flying. It is therefore not surprising that there is lots of GA and it is generally the cheapest in the world.

Other countries (Canada, Oz, NZ, SA) have some but not all of these factors so are cheaper than Europe.

cheers!
foggy.

[stevehanmer]

Thanks, scroggs and foghorn, for your swift replies; very useful.

So ok, you've established the main reasons for the difference in price. Is the conversion THAT expensive from let's say Oz to uk, to make up for the huge difference in price?

And what about the standard of training? Anybody know anything about that?
Would it affect your job chances (some years from now of course) if you were to train outside the UK. Would future employers take the view that you've taken some sort of 'cheap short cut', because like most people who ever want to train to fly, i would like to do it as cheaply as possible.

At the same time i don't want to take a route that will affect my chances at a later date.

By the way, i'm half way through my ppl and like many other wannabes i'm not gonna let this thing deter me from pursuing my dream. It may take a little longer but i'll get there one day.

Thanks again

H

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well H it’s a controversial one and the cause of much puzzled staring into the bottom of pint glasses amongst the wannabe population.

Standards of training are not even an issue any more. Many of the world’s highest paying and most prestigious airlines, who can pick and choose their pilots from all over the world (Cathay Pacific, Emirates, Singapore Airlines etc) employ a right old mix of pilots from all over the world, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, America and so on. You may encounter a few crusty old relics of the empire who still cling to the notion that the UK licence is somehow indefinably ‘better’, but thankfully they’re a fast vanishing breed now as well.

However, all the airlines I just mentioned come from countries where there is no local flight training industry to support. Here in the UK, it’s a little more complex :rolleyes:

You see, the main reason flight training in Britain costs three times as much as it does in the rest of civilisation, is all the government snouts in the trough. We pay massive fuel duties, licencing fees, exam fees, airways charges etc etc etc and a healthy swipe of VAT on top of everything.

The bean counters in the government, noticed some years ago that the smart wannabe’s were leaving the country in droves to do their training somewhere a little more friendly to aviation. Recognizing the potential loss of their cash cow, they swiftly passed laws making it so expensive to convert a foreign licence to a UK one that it was no longer worthwhile to do so. That’s basically been their policy ever since.

Under massive pressure from the recreational flying public, the CAA have relented slightly in recent years over the issue of recognition of foreign PPLs, however they’ve more than made up for it by totally shafting the professional pilot wannabe – by savagely increasing the time and cost factor of converting a foreign CPL and, just recently, ceasing to recognize other countries’ instrument ratings altogether. Leading to the bizarre situation we have now, with massively experienced foreign licenced air transport pilots having to pay to sit all their ATPL writtens over again, re-do their CPL flight test in a single engine, and undergo 50-something hours of compulsory dual training before they can even be considered worthy to sit the instrument rating test. Meanwhile the airlines here have been so starved of suitably experienced crew that they’ve been forced to run sponsorship schemes, and hire 200 hour pilots straight into heavy jets. Yes, it’s a bizarre situation and no, you won’t find anything like it anywhere else in the world. It’s got plenty to do with job protection of bureaucrats and sod all to do with aviation safety or improving the lot of the cash strapped wannabe.

The situation is unlikely to change in the near future for the obvious reason that anyone who’s already jumped through the licencing hoops (in other words ‘everyone who’s already got an airline job’ ;), is quite understandably going to wish to enhance their own employment prospects, by keeping the licence as exclusive and unobtainable as possible.
So the short answer is that it’s still possible to save a small amount of money by going and doing your PPL and some of your hour building abroad, but when you get to the serious business of CPLs and instrument ratings then you’re unlikely to save much if anything. In fact doing a non-JAR instrument rating is just throwing money away now, if your long term plan is to work in the UK/Europe.

Well that’s my bit said anyway, sorry to be the bearer of negative opinions. Feel free to email me if you want some specific numbers relative to what it cost me and some of my mates to train down under, and / or convert to UK licences.

[laurie]

Good posts. H-Man, I came to NZ after doing a bit of research on pprune.

I wouldn't say you would save a great deal over what it will cost at an airfield near your house for the likes of a PPL - remember there are accommodation costs, and general living expenses, plus the flight out is not cheap. The rough budget flyingwise is around $8-9000 NZ. having said that the cost of living is buttons compared to the UK and its a good rate of exchange (for us) at the moment which helps.

The savings really kick in after the PPL gaining hours and just enjoying touring the country - eg an (equivalent) hourly wet hire of under £40 for either Cherokee or Robin R2160. Complex aircraft starting with PA28-200R at £45 so you can see the cost savings there.

As Luke has pointed out above, there is no point going further than a PPL and hours building, as CPL and IR from Aussie and NZ are worth diddley squat under the current rules. You can convert a PPL from NZ to UKJAR licence as long as you have 100 hours and must take the UK flight test and law exam. I think you get waived from having to do the RT rating.

Apart from anything else, it is a lovely country to fly in - very scenic, and the people are great fun. As you are already halfway through your PPL in the UK, you should continue with it there. Try coming out to Aussie or NZ when you want to build hours pre CPL, and have a great time into the bargain instead of the usual first thought of going to the States.

There are quite a few training organisations, and loads of Aero Clubs all up and down the country. look on www.webwings.co.nz (http://www.webwings.co.nz) for a list of Aero clubs.

If I can help any further please don't hesitate.

Regards,
Laurie.

[skysheriff]

in the current job market and aviation recession, a JAR ATPL is a worthless piece of crap.
As guvnor said, you risk having to wait 5 years to get a job.
Only a mentally disturbed wannabe would start its training under the current world economic situation.

[Cardinal Puff]

Any truth to the rumour that the JAA/JAR system is temporary and to be replaced in the future by something even more arcane?

Just asking......

[Luke SkyToddler]

Cardinal is undoubtedly referring to the impending European Aviation Safety Agency ... EASA for short ...

Be afraid ... be very afraid :mad:

[stevehanmer]

Thanks for your input luke and laurie, i appreciate your time to write in. I may well take you up on your offer of help when i get more time over the next few weeks.

It's interesting to hear from people who have trained outside the uk, and i would love to hear from others who have done likewise.

Skysheriff, i'm not sure your comments are relevant to this thread, but i value your opinion like every other. I am under no illusions about the job prospects for wannabees right now. I am fortunate enough to quite enjoy my day job and so am in no hurry to go for commercial next week or next year. I'll just sit back, let the funds grow, do some travelling and enjoy my ppl for a while and keep a close eye on how things progress over the next few months. I will then make a decision on when to further my training. I am merely gathering info and advice for the time that i inevitably will start my commercial training.

Any other comments on this topic would be appreciated too

H