Hour building, what aircraft?

[frogone]

I’m planning a trip to the US to do some hour building, I usually fly a Piper Warrior, and could build hours in that, but also I could use a Piper Arrow. I’m building up my hours for the JAA ATPL licence. Would anyone have any suggestions, if spending the extra money on the Arrow is pointless? I intend to do about 50 hours. Would it be good to get experience in a 'Complex Trainer' as the Arrow is known.

Cheers

EIDW

[Matthewjharvey]

Unlikely you'll be allowed to rent an arrow without a long 'checkout' with an instructor. Normally at least 10 hours. Personally I wouldn't bother with the extra expense - get something cheap, you'll be taught how to fly complex when you do your CPL.

Good Luck

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Get the cheapest,and slowest aircraft you can.Get your 300 nm cross country sorted.Then use some of the hours to brush up your general handling etc.
Pinch one of their Instructors every 10 hrs or so to stop any bad habits.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Ten hours for a check ride in an Arrow??!! Two hours is usually sufficient to fly one competently from scratch, especially if you are already comfortable in a Warrior.
If you want 50 hours, how about 40 in the Warrior and 10 in the Arrow. Broaden your horizons a bit. Hour building needs to be more than just bland log book filling.

[Autofly]

CFI,

I agree that hour building time should be spent doing useful trips (i.e. navs through tricky airspace etc) but is there really any value in flying something any bigger. Granted something like retractable gear in your logbook may nice but for the cost of hiring a bigger aircraft is it worth it??

I fly the good old C152 at the moment and was going to get rated on C172 but unless I can find a cheap C172 then I won't bother. Many pilots have told me to keep the initial training costs down so I can use the cash when I get to the CPL level. I would imagine the amount you'd save flying a Warrior as opposed to an Arrow could be significant. In addition, if you fly an aircraft that you are familiar with then you can spend your time improving your skills rather than circuit bashing in new one.

This is what i've been advised to do by many people. Anyone else got any opinions??

AF

[no sponsor]

I would rent an Arrow.

I went to the states, and had time in a 172, but the Arrow caught my eye, and I did a quick conversion (4hrs) and went into the Arrow. I now fly one reguarly here in the UK, and it is a great aircraft - feels like a mini-airliner, and is a good step-up. I am relatively low-houred, but I prefer flying a complex aircraft (but that's just me). One thing to bear in mind is that things happen faster, since the cruise is 120kts.

You can pick up an Arrow in the states for not much more than a Warrior - plus, an Arrow will tend to have more equipment as standard.

I would recommend the advice of doing check-rides with an instructor every so often.

-- Don't forget your gear --

If your going in end of Feb/March, let me know if you are interested in sharing the costs.

[Grandad Flyer]

EIDW, if you are used to flying the Warrior you will find the conversion to the Arrow extremely straightforward, its almost exactly the same except for that extra blue lever!! Its flys just like the Warrior, but a little bit faster.
The ones I have flown weren't like "mini-airliners" though!!! They are nicer than a Warrior but to be honest they are not that exciting once you get over the "ooh, I can raise and lower the gear" part.

In the US they have to give you a complex check out. If you have a UK licence I assume its the same now with the new JAA ruling on complex aircraft types. Also, there is sometimes an insurance clause requiring a certain number of hours for the check out.

Personally, bearing in mind the fact that the difference between the cost of flying an Arrow dual and the cost of flying a twin dual, in the USA, is minimal, you could do what I did and just get a twin check out.

If you wanted to, and like flying in the USA, you can do a multi rating in as little as 6 hours (I did mine in 6 hours, having only flown the Warrior previously, and having only done my PPL a couple of months earlier). If you wanted to also do the FAA medical, the PPL written test and learn about your aircraft, you could do an FAA multi engine test and get yourself an FAA licence.
Its actually very easy, gives you something to work towards, and only takes about 2 days for the flying. The other stuff will maybe take one or two days to cover.

Either way you will get some more hours in the book, learn loads and feel you have really achieved something, as well as fitting in all your single engine stuff too.

This is how I did it and I

So my advice is, do all your hour building in a Warrior and do a twin rating. Or just do the Warrior time and fly an Arrow for fun.

[Noggin]

Why waste money burning off 50 hours when you could do a JAA IR in 55 hours, and not develop 50 hours worth of bad habits.

[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: Noggin ]</p>

[Luca_brasi]

Would there be any cost savings in the Arrow over longer journeys? While i understand that hour building is the important thing and that u will fly whichever aircraft for the same amount of time, wouldnt it be nice to go further for the same price?

[no sponsor]

Grandad,

How many hours do you need for a multi in the States?

[Sensible]

See if this site answers your queries:
<a href="http://www.adp-flight.com/aircraft/seneca.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adp-flight.com/aircraft/seneca.htm</a> Look at the restrictions at the bottom of the page regarding experience although they do provide an instructor to fly dual with you free (mind you don't get maimed in the rush if you ask for a volunteer tho)
Few FTO's will let a novice lose with a twin because of the insurance restrictions. A lot of non US pilots train at ADP. Like all FTO's, the instructors come and go all the time - Sept 11 may have slowed down the migration a bit.

[ 02 January 2002: Message edited by: Sensible ]</p>

[Grandad Flyer]

no sponsor. Its 6 hours minimum. Lets just say I did the absolute minimum necessary and had 6 hours in my logbook when I did my test.
The bit about needing an instructor for the insurance, yes, that is often the case, but I was really only suggesting flying the twin for a bit of fun and possibly to gain another rating.
It used to be the case that if you flew at least 0.5 hour P1 after completing your FAA multi private (although you could of course have a safety pilot with you for insurance purposes) you could get a CAA multi rating added to your CAA licence for just the price of a stamp. I realise this has probably changed to something totally ridiculous and expensive now, but worth checking.

However, I still think doing a twin rating would be a) excellent experience b) lots of fun.

Come on, $119 per hour!!!! Thats what, about £85 per hour? And no landing fees or anything.

I still think its the best thing I ever did. I loved it, it made me really think about flying properly, and after doing that rating when I did (low hours PPL) I decided I wanted to be an airline pilot! (Guess that came true then...)

Its like learning to fly again and much more fun than a checkout on an Arrow. It also counts for a FAA complex checkout which means you can fly something like an Arrow, once you have the twin rating. Have no idea if that would count in the UK though. However, for the marginal extra cost its got to be worth the fun of doing the twin stuff!

Have fun in the US. Can't wait to go over there again for some light aircraft flying......

[Julian]

School I used specified 5 hours min to take the Arrow away, gets you the complex endorsement.

Julian.