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ghost-rider
10th Sep 2002, 12:37
Just a general query ... and related to the Level Capping thread on the Reporting Points forum ... just how bad is the situation at the moment ?

Reason for asking is the amount of regs in force due 'staff shortages' that seem to have gone on for ages.

Is there any light at the end of the tunnel ? :(

Do you think NERC will ever reach full capacity ?

Thanks in advance ...

flower
10th Sep 2002, 13:13
As Swanwick is 41 controllers short and it takes about 3 years to fully train an ATCO ,unless a whole number are close to completing their training you are talking a long time.

I would love to know in what way management have worked out that we can reduce delays.

Recently LACC have rung up most mornings as soon as we have started shift and put on MDI's , or even requested check before start with the co-ordinators.

We have taken such a retrograde step this year , I only hope our senior managers appreciate the morale problems for everyone concerned ,It does reach down to us at the Airports as well.

Gwyneth Dunwoody we need you to raise hell at the conference and in Parliament for us.

DtyCln
10th Sep 2002, 14:06
As correctly stated above we are about 41 ATCO's below agreed full manning levels. The Deputy General Manager recently stated in figures to the NATS board that "assuming we have a 66% pass rate of trainee ATCO's this winter we will do summer 2003 with one LESS ATCO than this summer(2002) after retirements and resignations are factored in". Those figures are now in the public domain.

Not yet official but 99% accurate are that up to 20 Terminal Control ATCO's are currently in the interview phase with NAVCAN of Canada. As of last week 7 have been offered positions and are mulling their decisions. At least three ATCO's at LACC have indicated their intentions to me to leave within the next 12 months to persue other careers.

Still at least those of us who are left won't get bored!!!;)

ghost-rider
10th Sep 2002, 14:35
:eek: :eek:

flowman
10th Sep 2002, 16:19
DtyCln
Would you say that the assumed 66% pass rate for trainee controllers was realistic?

DtyCln
10th Sep 2002, 16:45
I believe it was between 50%-60% at the end of last year at LATCC in en-route. However with the current pay offer now accepted by the Controllers union (awaiting ratification by the Joint NATS Unions), overtime is now available if anyone wishes to volunteer for it. There are some signs of interest, especially from the younger controllers, with big mortgages!

BDiONU
10th Sep 2002, 16:58
NATS management are looking at other ways of bringing in more staff quickly. One is discussed in the thread in PPrune reference Ex-Mil ATCO's. Another I'm aware of is that there's a 'glut' of ATCO's in Eire and Scandanavia. There are discussions under way with the IAA (AAI?, Irish CAA!) to bring some of their guys over.
There's also the possibility of bringing in experienced aerodrome ATCO's who've got a good chance of validating at Area and sending the spotty youths off of CATC to the aerodromes. Also bringing Manch ATCO's down to NERC.
NATS management have suddenly woken up to the realisation that they're in a BIG hole!
Although the 'official' figures are 'only' 41 ATCO's below, when you factor in the very high sickness levels on some watches etc. etc. the figure is significantly higher. Hence poor old 'D' watch getting hit on for so many DD&C's, 'cause some other watches simply cannot man up for it.

Yes Swanwick can handle more traffic than LATCC ever did, but only when the correct staff with the correct validations have got their bums in the seats.

flower
10th Sep 2002, 17:27
The problem with bringing in "experienced aerodrome controllers" is just that , we are aerodrome and approach controllers ,very few of us these days have an area rating. So yes you are probably correct in saying that we are more likely to validate than those straight out of the college ,but it is not a short term fix.
Aerodromes also cannot afford to lose experienced controllers.
In the short term bringing in ATCOs from abroad seems the most obvious solution, but do they really want to work within a company suffering major morale problems within its operational staff, with the threat of industrial action from the support staff, and management who would appear to have had their heads buried in the sand for the last few years.

And can any one tell me why we are having to hold students going through the college for several months, making their training very disjointed. Is the difficulty training them on the shop floor ?

Aunt Rimmer
10th Sep 2002, 18:20
When you have folk passing through the college and then waiting for anything up to 2 years to start either IVC's or live training, you have to wonder ..... who decided to cut training section staff, budgets and courses...... ? .... what a senseless waste of human life...

As an aside, leaving an airport, going back to college to do the Area ratings, doing your IVC and then live training, will take a MINIMUM of 18 mths. I know - I've just done it - and I doubt the system could have let it be done faster, and I consider myself lucky, slipping straight on to an IVC and not waiting around to start live training.

Take up the Hold
10th Sep 2002, 19:40
How many controllers will be freed up when Sector 33 transfers to Scottish in March 2003 and Sector 7 is also transferred by April 2004? With Scottish taking this airspace surely that must make a difference in the staffing of the remaining sectors.

Legs11
10th Sep 2002, 19:40
I know we don't have area ratings out here in the bundoo, but are we now going to see an advert from NATS looking for external recruitement?:p

Nogbad the Bad
11th Sep 2002, 12:13
Management must take ALL the blame for what is happening to staffing levels within NATS.

Staff morale has reached an all-time low....worse than has ever been seen before within the "Company". I, for one, cannot blame the younger controllers for looking elsewhere for employment. And I take my hat off to ALL the "ab-initios" that have validated in the past few years - it is by no means an easy task these days.

We have been talking about "pass rates", and how much of a percentage will validate at their final unit. Again - due to incompetent management in the past (and yes, it is still the same - nothing changes) - this is sadly a factor within the training regime.

It didn't used to be so.

When proper training was given to students (we used to call them "cadets"), the failure rate at the final unit was virtually ZERO !!!!!

But then again, you see, the old system cost MONEY......and that is the overriding control in EVERY SIDE OF AVIATION these days.

Such a shame, when it's now NATS' customers that are footing the bill !!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

160to4DME
11th Sep 2002, 14:03
Can you imagine if NATS Training management ever crossed over to flight crew training ??

"Now hear this Fourth Officer Scroggs, I want you to ignore everything being reported about us in the press. Got it ? Good.

Right, now that you've been on hold for 4 years, and you should look back on those 4 years of despatching and cabin crewing as part of getting the big picture of our ops., we've finally managed to get you on a training course.

There've been some changes since you saw the syllabus when you applied 6 years ago, so ignore the recommended reading list because it's totally out of date and will jeopardise your written exam marks. We don't supply any of the books any more either, so I suggest you pop orf to your local library see if they can supply you with some.

Right, your fleet of choice was Airbus. Sorry
old chap, but we've gone for the all singing, all dancing Boeing 797 flush-the-loo-by-wire Mega Hog. It's great !! Costing us a packet, but when it's up and running, we'll be the airline everyone else envies. Imagine, North Atlantic Transport Service will be the carrier everyone's talking about !!

Of course, there are a few teething troubles, but a few more years delay won't bother you..will it ?

Now, about the training.

Lot's of unecessary claptrap in the old course. We've gone through it rigourously to eliminate anything we considered out of date or not required. Don't you believe the stories going round that it's a panic response to the fact that we're going to have a pilot shortage soon. It's rubbish !!

First, we're cutting out CRM. We've decided that if you've hung around this long, surviving on a pittance of a wage, then you're quite resourseful enough already.

We've also adopted a company policy that we will only fly in nice weather. Therfore, IMC and IR ratings will no longer be needed. Sceptics say this is a cost cutting measure when in reality we are doing it to make your flying experience all the more pleasant; who wants to fly in those nasty clouds anyway. Remember, you're a valued member of the team now, and everything we do is to your benefit.

We are also pushing for a dispensation from the CAA to allow us to go down to one-man operations during the hours of night. Afterall, the workload is much less during those hours, so we don't really see the need for 2 of you up there. Oh don't worry, it's not costcutting, just sound economic sense for the company.
We're also giving senior members of the cabin crew a 15 hour course on MS Flight Sim 2002, and they will be on hand in case you need them.

I see you have no turbine experience yet. Well, not to worry. We no longer fund conversion courses, so we've come up with this great idea of asking Boeing to supply the aircraft without engines. It's a great idea; saves us about $80 million on each aircraft and improves the balance sheet no end.

By the way, you are licensed for gliders, aren't you... ?"

160

eyeinthesky
12th Sep 2002, 09:17
Take up the Hold:

Short answer: NONE, since we do not at present have enough staff to open S33 EVER. In fact I know that on my watch we have NEVER been able to open S33, S11 and S10 all together since NERC opened.

This is what some people have been missing. The much-heralded increased capacity of NERC is nowhere near being realised because we are so short of staff. If we were able to open 33 and 11 and 10 we could offer something like 64 aircraft per hour through 11 and 33. We are presently only offering 30-odd (the combined 11/33 TSF), because we can't split, so the NERC capacity in that part of the world, 8 months after O date, is less than 50% of what it should be! Good, eh!:rolleyes:

Bigears
12th Sep 2002, 11:59
Flower, do you know the whole story about MDI's? (politics)

ZIP250
12th Sep 2002, 13:38
As I understand it, MDI's are a popular way of limiting sector traffic because they do not show in the overall delay figures and thus improve the NATS attributable delay figures. In their defence MDI's are probably the only way of being sure that there is no overdelivery of traffic. Unfortunately on the down side they are a b*****d for the airfields and do little to remove the bunching which we need to control if we are to move more traffic. This is because however we restrict traffic getting airborne, tactical routings for the TMA task will inevitably change the route profile and hence traffic will naturally bunch. One of the problems for en-route is the relatively short sector lengths between the LTMA airfields and AC sector entry. This means late notification of traffic entering the sector and hence a very late realisation that an overdelivery is on its way. Pre NERC there was departure TV and pending strip production which did allow a certain amount of warning. Without these tools it is probably inevitable that MDI's will be used more simply to protect the en-route sectors.

Hope this makes sense


Z

flower
12th Sep 2002, 15:38
Bigears,
what else should I know about MDI's ?
I understand from an operational reason why LACC put them on, and I understand the agro it places upon us at airfields.

Is there something missing politically you are prepared to put on this forum?

Ta Flower

Bigears
12th Sep 2002, 15:54
Flower, the answer is contained within ZIP250's excellent explanation. I must say though, that I had thought that they were used more for 'political' purposes than what ZIP250's reply leads us to believe. Following what he/she says, I am prepared to change my mind.

Mr Chips
12th Sep 2002, 16:22
Pre NERC there was departure TV and pending strip production which did allow a certain amount of warning

Thats one of the things that baffled me. We still have Departure CCTV (oh the old days in teh darkened room sleeping off hangovers) or DETS as it is now...but only at TC. NERC have no access to it - even during FLOP/SwIMM when it becomes essential. Can anyone explain why NERC don't have access?

250 kts
12th Sep 2002, 17:04
Yep---££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££:D :D :D :D

Loki
12th Sep 2002, 17:32
One of our managers persuaded himself that departure CCTV wasn`t required and would not listen to contrary advice from the troops.

canberra
12th Sep 2002, 18:58
until 1973 there were 3 accs in britain; london, scottish and preston. why dont nats see sense and make manchester a full acc to take the pressure off london/swanwick? or would that be a loss of face and cause major embarrassment, and this government (and it was a government plan) does not like embarresment.

Bigears
12th Sep 2002, 19:07
Canberra, There are, IMO, loads of reasons why not.
Just some for starters......
Where to put them
Where does the equipment come from
Ditto staff.
There is (was?) a grand plan to put Manch into Swanwick, no, NSC, or was it Swanwick again? :rolleyes:
This would result in savings from commonality of equipment, staff in one less location, no rent to pay for Ops room.....
I'm sure that someone with more knowledge than I will add...

NERC Dweller
12th Sep 2002, 21:02
Thats one of the things that baffled me. We still have Departure CCTV (oh the old days in teh darkened room sleeping off hangovers) or DETS as it is now...but only at TC. NERC have no access to it - even during FLOP/SwIMM when it becomes essential. Can anyone explain why NERC don't have access?

As far as I know it was never a "system" requirement. It was possibly an oversight in the requirement set. You don't ask for it you don't get it.

Cost is also very likely. At West Drayton TC was next door to AC so you run the cable from one room into another. Now you have to run the cable 60 miles, piping a TV picture this distance becomes very expensive!

mainecoon
12th Sep 2002, 21:49
canberra

when i left it about an hour ago manchester was still an area control sector has been classed as such for some time (8 sectors and soon to be more after a round of airspace changes)

but yes i believe cost of the ops room is a big part of why it will eventually close:rolleyes:

BDiONU
13th Sep 2002, 07:31
The backroom boys at LACC have tried and tried to get management to allow us to give the Ops staff Departure CCTV, but they won't have it. Its still a BIG bone of contention! Ggggrrr!

AFAIK Manch is still planned to be moved to ScOACC using whatever the CASPIAN team come up with. CASPIAN is the new platform for all NERL radar rooms (cost of £450M), including NERC II. Little room in LACC as TC and MASOR will be moving in, no firm dates yet, got to have the new Tech Centre open first (and the test teams moved out there) before the secondary Ops room can be recabled and set up.

Numpo-Nigit
13th Sep 2002, 09:42
You guys STILL believe in "New Scottish Centre"?

NATS cannot afford it - that's clear. So, along with the pressure from Eurocontrol to reduce the number of ACCs in Europe, guess where you and Manchester will end up? Yes - that's right - Swanwick!!! Oh, I guess we'll give the ocean back to Shannon.

Maybe I'm kidding, but don't be TOO sure. Time will tell.

NN

jocko0102
13th Sep 2002, 10:53
Regarding Manch etc moving to Scottish or Nerc it wont happen in a long time.The company is in such a mess that the disruption would be enormous.
I think the status quo will be maintained for some time with the the only big change coming in next year regarding 33 etc.
The whole of Nats from top to bottom needs a complete overhaul with the right people making the decisions this time instead of groups of individuals who no nothing about everything!
All that has happened over the last 10 years or so is the problems are shifted from one unit to another without actually dealing with the problems of staffing and reorganising airspace properly.

5milesbaby
13th Sep 2002, 21:51
To answer the original question, I don't see Swanwick hitting maximum capacity for at least 10 years, due to the current shortage and suspected increase of traffic over this time.

Air Vent, one of the Scottish ATCO's is now actually valid down here, but still not a good pass rate from the course.

Mr Chips , about CCTV 'NERC have no access to it - even during FLOP/SwIMM when it becomes essential ' Why is it essential???? Just so the TC assistants can go to bed and not use the good old dog and bone to pass an airbourne estimate??? I think this is actually much safer now as during the usual mayhem in LACC we now know exactly whats coming, and not just lucky if we see all the airbourne times on the CCTV and get the strips out in time. Old system stank badly .

NERC Dweller
13th Sep 2002, 21:59
Nerc Dweller, about CCTV 'NERC have no access to it - even during FLOP/SwIMM when it becomes essential ' Why is it essential????

I was only quoting Mr Chips!

5milesbaby
13th Sep 2002, 22:09
Sorry ND, ammended and correct ;)

niknak
14th Sep 2002, 19:08
:p :p We're fully staffed, we have no recruitment problems, and our trainees will come on line at precisely the required time because we get them validated in position before the vacancy they're going to fill becomes vacant, and guess what?, we're not NATS!!
So ner.. ner.. ner.. ner.. ner!!:p :p

Direct HALIFAX
15th Sep 2002, 09:08
It seems the only way more sectors can be opened at LACC will be to change the operational concept of requiring T and P on every sector.

I would imagine the success rate for validating new ATCOs will be roughly the same as it was at LATCC. It's the system that needs to be changed so a P can support more than 1 T.

viaEGLL
15th Sep 2002, 09:10
Thanks ninak,

At least we know that Land's End is being run properly:p :p :p

fourthreethree
16th Sep 2002, 09:51
Air Vent
In Maastricht we have indeed stopped taking on conversion trainees. This however is not linked to a high failure rate. I am not linked to management, nor am I party to their decisions, so what I say is only opinion and speculation, but offhand I can only think of a handful of conversions who have failed (or who have left, unhappy with life in Maastricht). I would say that a few years ago we were also vastly understaffed and used the conversion course idea alongside the usual ab initio training to get a quick burst of controllers into the ops room. This done, we now have (I believe) better staffing levels, so conversions are no longer needed.

TAKE THE HINT, NATS MANAGEMENT!!!!!

I have only skipped through this thread, but it just amazes me, with the trouble you guys are in at Swanwick (no offence, but it seems clear) that when I called your head of recruitment she told me I would have to apply through the normal channels for ab initio training,(I have been established here in Maastricht for over 5 years) then, assuming I passed the tests/interview etc I would have to follow the full ab initio course on ab initio pay.

I know of at least 2 other Maastricht controllers who would get back to the uk given the chance, but your guys and gals in the offices are not only effectively blocking us but also keeping your staffing levels down.

Down Ampney
16th Sep 2002, 10:43
fourthreethree
Speak to Swanwick Management direct and see if you get the same answer.

Modena
16th Sep 2002, 13:15
Yah fourthreethree, do as Down Ampney suggest, contact management directly. I know that in all of the consdierations to boost numbers, is taking controllers already licensed, where surfeits exist, ie IAA and Sweden. These folk are being considered to be taken on with a contract and a view to possibly become permanent.

055166k
16th Sep 2002, 13:26
Actually on the subject of Swanwick staffing levels one of the newly promoted watch supervisors is reported to have written to the manager suggesting that he might get rid of the dross. Perhaps this is to make room for an influx of high grade controllers with superhuman eyesight, no doubt a result of eating all those sprouts.//comments welcome.

niknak
16th Sep 2002, 13:45
Ouch!!!! :D

It's almost incomprehensible that the largest atc provider cannot forsee it's own staffing needs. :rolleyes:

Ex Servant
16th Sep 2002, 21:34
Some of us wouldn't ever qualify as ATCO's but have other qualifications/experience and would like to work as an Assistant, positions which I understand are disappearing. If there were more Assistants rather than less to do some of the donkey work for those of you that control would you be in a better position to cope with the work load? Would we also work out cheaper for the service as well?

BobAgg
16th Sep 2002, 21:45
Starting Course 126 next March

After reading this thread, I don't want to do it!

Cheers!

Bigears
17th Sep 2002, 11:03
Ex Servant,
I don't think you've recognised it, but thats a Hornets Nest.
BTW, happen to agree with you.
:D

flower
17th Sep 2002, 13:45
Bobagg, don't be put off by these problems.
If we had good management who planned ahead were proactive not reactive (a phrase you will hear constantly through your training) This would be the best damn job going.

Even with our problems I wouldn't want to do anything else.
Best of luck with your training.

Flower:D :cool:

Down Ampney
17th Sep 2002, 22:05
Bobagg
This is a forum for "sounding off". Despite what you might read every controller does the job because they enjoy it. There's no reason why you should not enjoy it too.
If you come to Swanwick you will find a great deal of good will towards you. Lots of people will put themselves out, gladly, to make you welcome and give you the best training available anywhere.

sector8dear
18th Sep 2002, 20:56
Bobagg - best part time job in the world (only joking)

Don't give up though. Management may be a bit "iffy" but the job is GOOD.