Ex-Mil Area ATCO Fast Track

[asdfgh]

Can anyone shed any more information on the rumour currently floating around.
It is said that NATS are now seriously considering fast tracking Ex-Mil Area ATCO's on a short conversion course with a view to getting bums on seats at Swanwick soonest.
Allegedly on direction of the Manager ACS NATS, who has the head of CATC, Manager Military Liason (Centre Place) and manager ATC Swanwick on the case.
No word of length of course, pay etc. but it does sound as if desperation has finally forced them to tear up the 'gentlemans agreement' that civil wouldn't touch ex-mil, except on a full course.

Answers on a post card to the usual address.....

[professor yaffle]

well that used to happen at dundridge ( however you spell it!)
then it stopped - although think it just used to be twr, app and apr - correct me i'm wrong!!
unsurprised it may happen again

prof

[crowman]

asdfgh you seem to be very well informed in all details!!

[Aunt Rimmer]

While a 'fast track', Dundridge was still the full CAA APR,ADCand APP syllabus. All the CAA did was cut out the extra padding (OJT course, BAW course and flying training). They then got about 65 (out of 72) trainees into the system after only 6 months of intensive training. Much better % than CATC by the way. So, if it's going to happen for Area then I say the sooner the better. Good luck from one who crossed over a while back ;-) It can be done !

[BDiONU]

Yes, getting rid of the padding would considerably shorten the course but what would the effect be? By that I mean the effect on Swanwick staff and the unions. Would there be the Colonel Blimp approach "You've not done the full 18 months, can't possibly be good enough!"? And what about the airfield boys and girls, 'cause they'd be leapfrogged over pay wise?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I believe that I was the first ATCO to be posted to Heathrow who had not undertaken a "Ministry" course and I was viewed with a great deal of scepticism and behind-back-whispering by some of the ex-cadets there. I had to do the approach radar rating course, for which I was attached to a cadet course which had just reached that stage of training.

My only ATC Course was with IAL back in 1966 and it lasted, if I recall, about 8 weeks during which time we studied Aerodrome, Approach, Air Law, Met, Nav and Tels. We also spent half of each day on the sims. It was intensive, but about 80% of us passed and were posted abroad. We then undertook about 3 months "OJT" after which we sat further licensing exams (something like the UK rating exams) before being issued with full licences. After a further period we underwent validation exams. During two spells of leave I visited Bournemouth and sat my UK licence/ ADC and APC exams to get my UK Yellow Peril..

'spose I was in a similar position to the mil guys wanting to transfer "fast track" except when I joined the Civil Service and was posted to Heathrow I had nearly 4 years civil ATC experience. If you RAF guys would take the trouble to go and get yourselves UK civil licences you might find it easier..

[niknak]

The Dundridge fast track courses were a lot shorter than 6 months, approx 12 weeks I think, and included adc/apc and apr.
I did a term of confinement at Dunderhead whilst these courses were going through, and they had a very high success rate.
Admittedly the selection procedures were tough and the course itself nearly finished off many of the candidates, but the vast majority of them got through it first time. :D
As an outsider, I think that it would be a good idea for NATS to reintroduce these courses to enable them to recruit experienced actos (mil' or civilian) who havent got all the ratings required for a specific function.
To a certain extent, perhaps the existing CATC courses could also be adapted to the fast track courses, after all the pressures it would exert are no different to the day to day working environment in the field.

The existing recruitment system is prehistoric and clearly needs to be overhauled.
I don't know what objections the existing NATS staff and unions could have to this, but I'm sure someone will come up with a gripe or two.:rolleyes:

[canberra]

why is it easier for military pilots to get their cpl and atpls than it is for military controllers to get their licences? i have a suspicion that civilian controllers dont want lots of ex military controllers invading the civil atc scene.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Canberra... I don't think that's really true.... although if you'd had as many frights as I have from some of your military chums you'd probably accept that there may be an element of truth in what you say!!

By the way, why do you never use capital letters in your postings??

[Hippy]

HD,

Having read most of your posts on here, it is evident that you have been a Heathrow bod since Pontious was a pilot :D ;)
Just wondered how you have managed to get so many frights from the Mil? They must have been pretty dreadful to get anywhere near your stuff, unless it is Whipping Boy's SATCO and his colleagues you are on about?

By the way, I've wondered that too, <shift> key broken canberra?

[BDiONU]

Canberra:

'Tis my suspicion that because ATC in UK is headed up by a joint and integrated aviation board thats where the 'stopper' is put on transition from Mil to Civil. After all many of the the pieces of the courses are the same, the 'Rules' are the same etc. etc. But the only 'sop' given to an experienced and qualified Mil ATCO is that if he applies for civil then the upper age limit is removed and a tiny bit of the civil course. Because if there was any more cognisance taken of Mil experience then there would be a mass exodus of Mil transferring to civil. Similar job, more pay, overtime and NO secondary duties, less BS & SCRATCOH rules apply!!

From talking to my civil colleagues they have no problem with Mil ATCO's converting and doing a shorter course. In fact they'd welcome them, in part due to the severe shortage at Swanwick (10% shortage and some watches another 10% down due sickness). The more bums on seats the better for everyone, ATCO's, pilots and the paying public! Oh, and of course it would get NATS 'management' out of an embarrassing hole due to a shortage which was foreseen but not acted on.

[asdfgh]

Looks like T3C5 might have hit on some truth. The LJAO back desk has had a deluge of calls from throughout the Mil world asking if the rumoured short course is true and how do they apply!!!

[Numpo-Nigit]

All those callers were lucky to find someone on the "LJAO back desk" - it obviously wasn't a Sunday then !!!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Oops.. sorry; forget that things are sometimes taken too literally on here. I expect I've given them as many frights in return!!!

[Chilli Monster]

meldrewv

Have you not seen the ads in the back of Flight? Thought the same thing myself but couldn't afford the paycut !

(And after giving back my blue uniform I don't want it back ;))

CM

[Aunt Rimmer]

meldrewv - I think the mil would welcome you with open arms, they are desperately short. (Not that I'm suggesting they'd be desperate to accept you.)

take5 - you've hit the nail on the head. The RAF high-heidyins would kak themselves if RAF ATCOs could leave easily .... cos' then they'd have to get their bums out of the offices and control again themselves !

Dundridge was 8 weeks for ADC, 10 weeks for APP and 10 for APR = 28. Near as dammit 6 months. No recourses were allowed which tends to focus the mind. Wonder how that would go down at CATC ?

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

HD, its good to have a mutual scare. :)

PS. Our trappers are here in a few weeks - please be gentle!

[Go for 5, Get 3]

Having done both disciplines and now working civil area, I can assure you that the two controlling jobs are VERY different!!

If the college can assure that that standards are not dropped, then it is surely a good idea.... why do the aerodrome courses to work area??

Bookwork could be done on ressetlement courses before joining NATS and succesful completion could ensure a place on the course. (Like the current APC). HOWEVER.. as the actual mechanics of controlling are so very different, I personally feel that it would not be prudent to miss out the Area one course.... it provides a great foundation and teaches the basics.

ALL controllers, civil and military alike, know that if you do not understand the basics, everything else will go to pot!!

It will be interesting to watch the way ahead... No doubt the 'gentlemans agreement' has been torn up in the light of the PPP.

[asdfgh]

Its my current understanding that the intention is to only do Area 2 (11 weeks) and study aviation law during the evenings. Allegedly SRG have agreed that provided the 'students' pass the exams everyone else does then they have no objections. Similarly the unions can have no argument along those lines.

There is discussion for ex-mil coming out at their option points to do some training as resettlement and transition across to civil. Something along the lines of how mil aircrew are eased into civil.

Interesting times.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Whipping Boy.. We'll do our best to keep things standard! When I first moved to WD from Heathrow I spoke to one or two old hand RAF guys in the tea bar about trappers (not a lot of people know what that means you know) and I mentioned "Iris". Does that mean anythign to you?

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

HD, sorry but I'm a whipper-snapper myself so "Iris" doesn't mean anything. Care to enlighten?

As an aside, my first ever experience with the trappers was in Germany in the mid 80s when I was on my first tour. Picture this, non-SSR unit working to FRG regulations - oral question:

"What is the SSR conspicuity code for aircraft operating in the UK Low Flying System?"

" :confused: :confused: :confused: "


It was at that point I decided that, one day, I would be a trapper.

Anyway, I digress. Getting the thread back on track. Controller for 17 years, Class D airspace, Class A airspace (amongst others the London CTR), instructed civilian controllers (PAR), examined civilian controllers (joint visits with SRG to Wattisham, Wallop, Gib etc) and I estimate that over 70% of all aircraft I have ever spoken to are civilian. WHERE'S MY YELLOW BOOK?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

"What is the SSR conspicuity code for aircraft operating in the UK Low Flying System?"

Brilliant question - what s*ds they were!! "Iris" was the callsign of the old Hastings which used to wander the world full of RAF trappers!! If she appeared on freq the blood would run from your face and the little window on the side of your head which reads your age started to go round like a fruit machine!!

[BDiONU]

Gofor5. Get3

You reminded me of an article an old friend had written for the staff magazine at ScATCC which attempted to give a flavour of the difference between Mil and Civil control.
He described civil control as like working the vehicles on the M6, separated from each other and at different speeds, generally heading in the same direction. Whereas mil was like trying to cross both lanes of the M6 in slingbacks and a tight skirt!!

Before all the civil ATCO's in the world start flaming me (as happened to this chap) I'm not suggesting that civil controlling is 'easy', nor military incredibly difficult. This is simply an analogy to try to show the difference. Amused me at any rate!

[Trick]

If I were a military ATCO cosidering a change of career, I would be very cautious about accepting the rumoured fast track 'area only' course.

As has already been mentioned - the civil/military disciplines in this field are very different.

A failure of the course or 'chopped' at unit will leave the individual without a job and without any form of useful qualification to offer the rest of the civil ATC market. Look carefully at the current failure rates at both college and unit level.

Before entering a dead end street ...................!!!

[Goldfish Watcher]

There were 2 ex-mil controllers on my CATC course.

Both passed an examination of prior competence.

However, one of them didn't even get past the ADC course, losing a load of his own cash in the process and ended up going back to the RAF with his tail between his legs.

Always have an alternative plan!

[BDiONU]

Trick:

The guinea pigs are going to be current NATS employees who's jobs will be kept open in the event of failing to pass CATC or fail to validate.
But I suspect that these guys will be exceptionally motivated to pass, knowing that the eyes of all their old ex-mates will be on them for what the future holds. OK, losing your own money is high motivation as well! :)

[Use TCAS]

Take3 Call 5

Looking at your profile you could be one of the guinea pigs then??

[Aunt Rimmer]

As an ex-mil Airfield and Area controller, with full CAA ratings, I feel qualified to comment. It is not impossible to move from mil to civil. As long as you don't come in with a "when I was in the Air Force" or a "know-it-all" attitude, are prepared to keep your head down in the books, mouth shut and eyes and ears open, then go for it. Where you have an advantage is in being R/T confident and able to judge vectors and conflicts on the radar - well where most have the advantage, there is always one .... :rolleyes:

Are the jobs the same ?

On the airfield side of things, IMHO the radar side of things is pretty much the same, vectoring round the circuit etc.. but you can't do split arse turns, in fact the military experience can give you an edge if and when emergencies happen - particularly if you had a D+D ticket ;)

Civil area is completely different from both civil airfield and mil area. First the blue strips are westbounds (not outbounds), and the yellows are eastounds (not inbounds). Strip-marking/co-ordination needs to be accurate, legible and unambiguous. But it takes a good while to be able to interpret what's written on the strips. Service writing don't count :)

It's all very well being busy crossing the airways with 4-5 ac on individual vectors in area-mil, it's quite another thing making sense of a strip display with anything up to 15-25 live strips/penders - you then squeeze all these differing performance aircraft into a 10 mile wide airway, climbouts one side, inbounds the other, with slower ones first (thanks EGAA/AC ;) ), catch ups last, all designed to get to IOM at the same time......with Hawks flashing across but leaving it to 10 miles from the edge of CAS to get a clearance (thanks LJAO ;) )!

Getting your head round using the strips to spot conflictions comes with practice, but it won't be easy, so don't kid yourself it's the same - it's not......but it can be done.

If you want any more comment/advice on the differences send me a private message.

One thing I recall from Dundridge was the motivation of everyone to succeed - both to pay for the mortgages that most already had (average age 38ish), and from a personal level to disprove all the doubters who were sceptical of the plan - with a pass rate of ca. 80% (no resits) I like to think that we all proved something.

Good luck if it happens. Some of us have been arguing for this for years, and were also active a few years back in trying to get the upper age limit raised from 26 !

[BDiONU]

You may think that but I'm unable to confirm or deny as there are 4 candidates for a single slot and no-one knows who it is yet :rolleyes:

[fiftyfour]

asdfgh,
You suggest that mil aircrew can 'ease' into civil flying.
It can be done but it's not made easy.
After 20 years continuous mil flying, I was only exempted from the General Flight Test ( circuits, forced landing, stalling, general handling etc) and the Night Rating.
I had to pass all the written exams ( an example question with reference to basic magnetism - define permeativity!!). It took me 2 months on a full time abridged course in London to cover the syllabus. Yet virtually all of this had been covered (and tested )in my initial flying training.
My Instrument Rating took about 3 weeks and quite a few thousands of pounds. (Again most of this had been covered in the military).
So, about 3 months of serious sweat and money, with not even a hint of an interview with any employer until you have the licence in your hand. Actual jobs with reasonable pay are very hard to find unless you have contacts/friends in civil airlines.
Fortunately my new employer subsequently payed for my first airline aircraft rating (B727).
My impression is that it is not the civil unions that are insisting on this. It seem to be a 'deal' between the 3 Services and the CAA to make the transition as difficult and awkward as they can get away with to discourage folk from moving on from the Services. In USA the transition is virtually a rubber stamp deal.
Sad to here that controllers face similar, if not worse problems.

[250 kts]

I don't have too much of a problem with this as long as the individual can achieve the correct standards at the different check points.

I wonder at what point on the pay scale he will be recruited at. Will it be onto the T&D scale or has a deal been done to encourage more to go down this route??

[BDiONU]

fiftyfour:

Surprised at your experience! It was my understanding that if you chose not to continue at your 38/16 point the RAF, as part of your resettlement, would pay for your civil licence. I'm sure many of the mil pilots on the PPrune forums will let us know their experience.

BTW breaking news. AOC MATO has decided that there is no way he's encouraging any sort of 'deal' with NATS to enable his (what would be) ex-ATCO's to make the transition. Great!!

250kts:

As previously stated the guinea pigs are already NATS employees and in NATS you never take a pay cut, although you can 'mark time' until the rest of your grade catch up. In this case those involved (or The One) will continue on their current NATS salary until validation (expected August next year), at which point they'll be ATCO 2's. Their placing on the spine point scale will be 'negotiated' individually based on previous experience. Something similar to NATS current system where, for example, if an ATCO decides he's fed up with NATS and goes to work for Eurocontrol, if he subsequently decides after 5 years he'd like to work for NATS again he'll be taken back into the fold at a spine point placing one lower than where he would have been (i.e. away 5 years gets 4 spine point increases).

N.B. He also includes she.

[achtung]

It seems there is a definite "them and us" attitude in NATS, and I for one would like to see some military chaps cross-train over to civil. It would help everyone involved..... NATS would get their numbers up and the civil will get their leave when they want it..... now if only we could eliminate some of that silver spoon-private school tie attitude.....:D

[Go for 5, Get 3]

I have it on good authority that the next Area two course will include one 'guinea pig'.. ex RAF mid forties. IF he passes APC next week

[asdfgh]

Go for 5, get 3


Nope, all change. On hold.

[Modena]

What is happening to ATC now asdfgh..?

I believe that there are 2 such subjects currently under active consideration, one with APC imminent, and a view to join area 2 course mid-October (11 weeks). It is correct that AOC MATO is reluctant to sanction any scheme that may introduce the likelihood of Mil controllers exitting early. However, it could be mutually beneficial if their was an agreement whereby a 'conversion' course was available at the end of a mil controllers term. It may act in the favour for RAF/RN, and NATS would then be able to plan in a certain number into their intakes from those that expressed a wish to convert.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Gents, just a minor point - there isn't an AOC MATO anymore. That's because there isn't a MATO.;) ;)

[Pie Man]

You must mean 'The Officer Formally Known as AOC MATO (OFKAM)' - don't say it too quickly :D :D :D

[BDiONU]

Have been asked to make no further comment about this and intend to respect that request. Sorry but tha tha tha tha thaaats all folks!!