Hello all,

Where can I get a copy of a well presented CV so I can improve my own.

Jinkster

Lazy :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Use the Microsoft Word Resumé Wizard, it will present your CV in a variety of attractive ways,

and anyway, you're better concentrating on the content and language of your CV....

Do not under any circumstances use Microsoft or any other commercial CV writer to prepare a pilot CV!!! Do I make myself clear? Don't do it!

These programs are, in the main, American and are aimed at the general business/financial jobs market. A five-page list of your personal qualities and talents - as defined by the writer - is absolutely no use to a Director Flight Ops trying to find a new pilot!

There have been many threads here over the years which have contained good advice about aviation CVs. Do a search and look carefully at what you find. Some of the more important points are:

The CV should be no more than one side of A4.

It should list your flying experience, with the greatest detail for the most recent and relevant parts.

If you recently left full-time education, basic details of your academic qualifications should be included.

If you are from the world of work, a brief summary of your more recent positions should be included. Do not, however, tell me how great you were as a salesman/leader/whatever. If you fit my specifications for pilots to fill my posts, I'll invite you to interview and ask you myself.

You must include details of your licence, (relevant) type ratings, instrument rating and medical, and personal details like age, sex and marital status.

Include a covering letter explaining what position you are applying for and, briefly, why you think you would fit into my airline. Don't overdo the bullsh*t. Don't quote your flying school to try and get extra kudos. I'm interested in that you have a legal and genuine ATPL, not where you got it - although I may want to know a bit about your training if you're a brand shiny new fATPL. Tell me when you are available, and tell me how to get in touch with you. Include contact details of 2 potential referees.

Now, go do that search.

Scroggs,

Regarding referees, each industry expects job applications to be slightly different. In the one in which I currently work, referees on CVs are not expected as it is taken as a given that you have referees, and they are only ever checked up on after a job offer has been made so are requested then.

Are referees on the CV or covering letter important in aviation? (I'm not providing them currently).

cheers!
foggy.

Actually, to be fair, they are optional. Most of the major airlines will have an application form which will need to be completed prior to any interview, and this will ask for all the formal details they need including referees. However, most Wannabes are likely to be targetting smaller companies, which may not have these forms, and the mention of referees may be useful.

It would be quite sufficient, probably, to just mention that referees are 'available'. These referees should be people that know you in a professional sense. If you have no work history, flying school or further education staff may agree to write references for you.

British Airways offers this advice:


Make first impressions count.

We can only proceed with your initial application on the basis of the information you provide us with. The following tips are offered to give you the best possible chance of succeeding to the next stage:

- Ensure your CV is well-organised, logical and easily understandable. Your experience, education and qualifications should be listed in reverse chronological order.
- Don't pad out your CV unnecessarily. Include everything that is relevant, but keep it brief.
- Keep a clear picture in your mind of the job for which you are applying, and the skills you have that most closely match the requirements.
- Take some time to think about your accomplishments. Include volunteer activities, jobs, projects, assignments, travel and team activities. Identify the personal qualities they brought out in you.
- Make sure your CV is up to date.
- Do a final check of your CV for spelling mistakes and errors.
Taken from Flight Operations Pilot Recruitment booklet.

As for references, I think it is standard practise in most industries now to only seek references once a provisional offer of employment has been made.

Does anyone out there have a good CV template they could send me please? Approaching the stage where I am going to need to start applying for jobs and any help would be appricated.

Mike

Have a look at http://www.oxfordaviation.net/career/cv.htm

tas

I've spent quite a bit of time writing CVs for others. The template from Oxford is ok, but I would say:

Don't put personal details, like address, phone number at the top - put them at the bottom - it wastes space, and ditracts from the impact. Have your name, then immediately under it, put your hours, qualifications etc. A bit like:

Mike Smithers
1200 TT, B737NG rating,

then a few quick facts to sum up your aviaition prowess, and others; put down one or two statements about what you could bring to the org.

leave out naff statements like, team-player, proactive, responsible for, - let the experience speak for itself, such as:

- instructor at XXX flying club for 15 months; 23 students passed under tutorship; assisted in day-to-day club duties, and instrumental in developing new club brochure attracting 23% increase in student numbers.

I like the message about including responsibility and potential leadership stuff, but don't overdo it.

Statements like: references on request are pointless. But 'References from CFI/senior managers from current org at appropriate time' are useful.

Remember: a cv is completely tailored to you. If you've got little experience, don't oversell the lack of it. A well written cv and a great application letter should get you an interview. Therefore, don't underestimate the power of the written application letter: it could make the difference. There are thousands of CVs floating around, and 99.9% all look the same, feel the same, and have the same excruciating language.

email me if you want me to review/suggest ideas.

Just follow Scroggs advice and you won't go far wrong.

If you are the right side of good looking then attach a photo - otherwise don't.

If you are a youngster ( <22 ) then one of the best things you can do regards a CV is to find 5 people who are in positions of responsibility and give them your CV and ask for a critique. Your Dad, your Dads Boss, same for your Mums Boss + a couple of friends of the family etc. In the same vein and if they are oblidging then I would ask for some practice interviews.

Most people will be flattered and I BET you know someone who regularly interviews people for jobs. They don't need to know a damn thing about the airline business. If you have never been for a proper job interview before you may be suprised by just how tongue tied and cack handed you can be when under the spotlight on the wrong side of the interview desk.

Their feedback comments on your speech and non-verbal mannerisms might be invaluable when the time comes for you to impress at your first airline interview.

So many Wannabe worry about which school they went to or whether they passed Met with 85%+.

Most of that is worthless rubbish - whereas - the fact you say Ummmm incessantly or just flap when asked why you are better than the other 6 guys in the outside waiting room will make or break your job prospects. As will those nasty unpolished ex-sixth form shoes you thought you could get away with...

WWW

Although I realise my following comments might not be helpful to people applying for aviation jobs, you might find them interesting:

The large aerospace company that I’m currently working for removes the personal details from ever CV they get; especially photos!

The reason for this is so that no one can come back at them in court and say they were unfairly looked over due to sex, age, race, religion etc.... So if a manager wants to hire someone, they are given a pile of nameless and faceless CVs. They then pick the ones they want out of that bunch. They are then given the personal details of the people picked and from that point on if anyone doesn’t get the job the manager has to write down why....in case it goes to court!

I would think that if anyone takes a company to court because they were looked over for a job they would be pretty egotistical, hence showing why they were right to be overlooked. But hey, you can sue anybody these days!

Political correctness too far or good idea? I’m not sure.

C

Check6

Relax, man! The fact is that these templates are usually inadequate, and are intended mainly to make money for their authors. The amount of editing required to turn Microsoft's example into a useable CV - particularly for a UK pilot - means that it's more or less useless.

As for your point about Air Carrier employment, that is what this forum is all about - or maybe you missed that small detail?

Perhaps you are the real Thomas Keller?? (You have to follow Check6's link!).

Guys and Gals

I'm looking for some hints and tips on CV writing. What are the things a good CV must have, similarly what are the things it must never have??

If the cv as actually read instead of being 'filed', what are the do's and don'ts at interview. Are there things you need to direct the conversation towards to demonstrate particular knowledge, awareness or skills?

Any help appreciated.

high-flyer

Dear high-flyer

A friend of mine who completed her CPL/IR last year and has been looking for a job for some time, told me about some guy in the North West area who runs a sort of CV / interview brush up course and has experience in interview technique.

I e-mailed my friend for info and she has sent me this link.

http://www.pittraining.co.uk


In this day and age, I don't think going the extra mile to get the interview and making sure you don't cock it up would be a bad thing.

Why spend all that money to get so far with your training and then mess up on something that is so important as your CV presentation and interview.

Its like spending £10,000 on your daughters wedding and then trying to book the cheapest DJ you can for the night do. Your guest will always remember the crap DJ but not the smart Limo or the Great afternoon meal???

True. I used www.pilotinterviews.co.uk (Penny Austin), she is a great interview coach, so do a search on 'Penny Austin'.

The testing, sim and interview I subsequently had, I passed!

MG,

your link doesn't seem to be working. Do you have another email address for Penny Austin?

Thanks

Well I just tried it and it worked; it's definitely www.pilotinterviews.co.uk or her email address is austinpenny@<hidden>

austinpenny@<hidden>
The webpage seems to be sponsored by uk2.net which deals with domain names. seemed to work for me
regards:cool:

edited to say morning glory beat me by one minute!!

Dear High Flyer

Difficult to give you an answer to such a broad subject, as every approach to an airline needs to be tailored to that company and indeed each airline probably has their own slant on what they want.

I can recommend AOT Ltd (see aotraining.net). They cover the whole process from cv prep, getting ready for the interview and the interview itself, plus things like how to relax yourself and what you need to know. You also get the chance to do a mock selection day.

I found it good value for money and it worked for me. I changed my approach to both cv writing and interview technique following the course. Have since got a job and am sure that my pre course cv would have not made it past the bin.

Another benefit is that it is presented by a group of airline recruiters/training captains and senior airline personnel, so you get to spend quality time with people who do selection for a living, and are happy to pass on the benefit of their knowledge.

Agree with EGCC, there is too much at stake these days to leave things to chance, and you really do only get one shot at making a good impression (or getting your cv in the right pile!).

Good luck

oap

Ive lurked for a lot longer than Ive posted an I thought I would post areply to this question cause I have had the pleasure of coming across

www.pittraining.co.uk

mentioned by EGGC4284. I have not used them for a course but made contact with Pilot Pete who runs their courses over a year ago asking advise. He has always taken the time to reply to my questions via email and for that I am very grateful. He is honest and coeurteus(sp?) always offering good advise and encouragement. I know he does this for several Wanabees and I think that is great! Keep it up Pete I know others value it as well. If his course is anything like that it gets my vote:ok:
Pete the website looks good, nice picture;)

I will be a "pilotoneday"

There are many previous threads on the topic of CVs within Wannabes; a search will reveal much of what you wish to know.

Scroggs

For all those budding airline jet jockeys out there, I thoroughly recommend attending Pilot Pete's WWW.pittraining.co.uk course.
It will give you all the help you need in being best prepared for that elusive job interview, you have already spent a small fortune in obtaining your frozen ATPL and now you need to secure your position with the airlines and this is the course for you!
In fact it is a must!
I had the pleasure of taking the inaugural course run by Pilot Pete and it has been invaluable for me, I am currently flying humanitarian aid in E.Africa for the U.N. & E.U. and i'm looking to return home to a job with a UK airline and therefore prior to the course I was in the dark regarding interview prep!
So get in touch with Pilot Pete he will sort you out!
All the best Sati.

Sati

Can you check your pm's please.

How can the interview technique be so different with different airlines, does ones personality not play a part in securing a job as well as one's qualifications and aviation experience.

Regards

Barkee

We have noticed a slight increase in candidates coming to interviews that have undergone some sort of interview prep training. Not sure that it makes or breaks an interview but I suppose that it relaxes some folks which is a good thing. As far as CV's...it is a important to strike that fine balance between being complete and being too long. But my opinion, for what it's worth, as well as others that I have talked to on this matter it's all about the cover letter that accompanies your CV. That to me is a make it or break it exercise. It needs to be a brief executive summary of the CV, no more than a single page. You need to sell me in that two or three paragraphs why I should go on to review your CV or just stick it in a file. You need to do that though with no BS.

Best of luck to all that are seeking employment.

I know a number of people that have prepared themselves for an airline interview having attended a training course. The feedback is that it gives you confidence to answer what can be difficult questions in a way that will convey confidence to the interviewer.

I am no where near qualifying but in my previous life always prepared myself for interview with prepared answers to questions I thought would be asked. Of course your personality has to put the answer over and that's why some people get through to the next round and some people don't.

604guy, I hope when you eventually interview me you will be kind :t

Can`t speak more highly of the guys that run `Airline Orientation Training` or AOT. The two guys that run the course are both pilot Resource Managers and training captains, and the guys (and gals) they have working for them are all actively involved in recruitment. It was a busy but really enjoyable weekend and I would recommend it to anyone who is intent on getting an edge on the day. I am positive that I got my first job because of my attendance and was told that my manner, attitude and interview was the best on the selection day.
Thanks again guys and if you are ever in Leeds...
Their website is www.aotraining.net

high-flyer

I just wondered if you have decided to go on any courses yet and if you do, could you let us all know how you get on and if you felt it was worth while doing.

EGCC4284 et al

I finished my CPL/IR training in March 2002 and have had no interest from prospective employers, despite sending out many tailored CVs and cover letters. When EGCC4284 let me now about a course that a friend of his had attended, I was keen to look into it.

Last week I attended the course run by Peter Smith (www.pittraining.co.uk). We spent a very pleasant and productive day going through my current CV in detail, improving it to show me in the best light, in the very short time one has to impress a prospective employer. We looked at what to expect in the interview, the questions, and the best way to answer them. We talked about the small things that make all the difference.

So, in short, my perception of what is required is now so much more detailed and complete. I thoroughly recommend the course.

I now feel much more confident in making applications to airlines, I know how to find out what they are looking for, and how I can tailor my experiences to their requirements.

So, a shameless plug then from a happy customer. If you're having the same problems as I was getting any interest from airlines, do yourself a favour and learn how to make the best of your application. www.pittraining.co.uk is the website. You'll be impressed.

That's all for now. Must get on with putting the theory into practice.

Regards

high-flyer

high flyer,

Could you let us know if you do get any interviews and/or further through selection, it would be interesting to know if interview preparation helps.

Thanks
pod

high flyer,

Any luck with any interviews?

Have a look at this link



http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1017795#post1017795

puccini

Who did you get your job with, as I am from that area.
Please send me a PM
Cheers
TD

high-flyer,

Any news of any interviews yet.

EGCC

Since attending the course with Pete Smith back in August, i have recently been successful at an interview with a major UK airline.

Preparation for the interview was covered in detail, and was a major factor in my success at interview.

high-flyer

That's good to hear,

Keep me informed how you get on.

If you are down south check out Penny Austin at:

http://www.pennyaustin.btinternet.co.uk/

She is the brains behind the interview training concept and it was money well spent.

At the risk pilot interview coach endorsement war, I just have to sing the praises of Pete Smith [ www.pittraining.co.uk ].

If you're going to succeed at this game, you need to understand straight away you are competing against possibly 100's of other candidates, with the same qualification and possibly superior experience levels, therefore you must do everything you can to stand out from the crowd. The way to do this is simply by doing more preparation than the next guy, and make sure your preparation is better focused than him. The amount of preparation you do is entirely down to how badly you want the job. To ensure that your preparation is properly focussed, I can wholeheartedly endorse Pete.

Pete teaches proven techniques, that whilst I'm sure are applicable to any airline's selection process, proved invaluable when I got a shot at Britannia. I passed and am now able to look forward to a paid for Type Rating, and a really good job with a 1st class airline. I have 250 hrs TT, and whilst I had modest success in my chosen field prior to taking up aviation, I don't feel I'm particularly outstanding in any way.

I honestly believe my day with Pete turned me from a 'not bad, let's see what the rest are like' -candidate, to a 'we definitely need to hire that one'.

One other thing I'd like to mention is how useful I found the ongoing advice and support Pete gave me - whilst PPRuNe is great for finding things out, it's no substitute for a trusted mentor to refer to.

AD,

Congratulations and a big well done on your success, could I ask if you don't mind how much it is to attend a course and do you think it would make any difference as to when I attended a course, i.e before I get my ATPL or afterwards.

Or should I attend a course as and when I get offered an interview.

Many thanks in anticipation.

Barkee

I would say as soon as you have got your IR,
spend a day with Pete to get you up to speed.

After reading a lot of the questions and post being
put on the Interviews, jobs & sponsorship forum,
I thought it would be wise to bring this thread to
the top of the pile again.

If you've got a 737 type rating and cannot get a job,
maybe you could do with paying Pete a visit.

Sooner the better

I went to a course run by Pilot Pete (PITT).

Having a background in business and management I was undecided over the use of such a course, but a friend convinced me it was worthwhile.

I have to say I was surprised, and I found the day informative, well structured and professionally run. A major plus point is the ongoing support and feedback he provides.

I have no hesitation recommending it to anybody.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130341

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1365255#post1365255

Hi anyone know of any such similar trainings in Singapore?

Cheers!

Hi Readers

I attended the PIT Training course this week to have a solid foundations about the CV's and Covering Letters also the feedback on selection procedure.

I would say it is worth every peeny, by doing this course you increase your chances to be called for selection, also gives you confident about yourself.

So grap the opportunity www.pittraining.co.uk

Regards

Syed

I know that this forum is getting a bit long in the tooth but I have tried to get hold of Penny Austin (pilotinterviews.co.uk) but to no avail. Anyone else had the same problem? Maybe it's just me!
Up the Greeks
RD

Interesting post on the Bristol Ground School forum

http://jals.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=814#post814

Still reckon that if you want advice on how to pass interviews, get it from the guys that actually do the interviewing! AOT is the only company that both Balpa and the IPA are invited to during their seminars and I have never met a nicer bunch of genuinely friendly professional guys who really know what they are talking about. They gave me the edge at my first interview and I still keep in touch with them now. Their website is www.aotraining.net Good luck to all.

Well ,

after reading the JALS forum it looks like free advertising by EGCC4284....

Guys with all respect to Pete.....but there are many that are doing these Interview Technique courses....but I believe if you look at the bear bones of the courses...the information is all around us!

in my opinion I hold Penny Austin in high regard ....ask the last of the BA cadets...also I believe Pete himself was coached by Penny.....!!!

I know the AOT guys are expensive but again good.

I do not know of Pete's course but its all very general ...but EGCC4284 continous canvassing only tell me something else....

Keep Skidding

VS

With all due respect to all these fancy "cv prep" and "interview training" places Keep your CV relevant and to one side,
Interview do some reaserch on the company and get your mum/wife to ask you some questions like "why do you want to work for us"
bit obvious really and much cheaper.

Rudedog,

check PM

Hi El Dorado

Could you please send me a PM too about Penny Austin.

VS

Dear VirginSkid

My name is Robert Cassidy and I work at
Manchester Airport as an aircraft refuller.

robertcassidy@<hidden>

http://groups.msn.com/LatinFlyersAirportBar/egcc4284.msnw

I only have 290 hour's PPL and am 3 quarters
the way through my ATPL's.

Hopefully I will have CPL/IR by next March 2005.

Some time ago I read on pprune a post by Pilot Pete
about how he gained his Commercial Licence, and how
he managed to secure his first jet job with JMC
with less than a 1000 total time hours.

His post was very inspirational and for many months
after that would I always read anything that he put
on pprune and I felt as if I knew the guy.

Then September the 11th came along and
things changed for ever.

A couple of months went by, and knowing that a
lot of airlines were cutting back on costs in any
way they could, I sent Pilot Pete a private message
via pprune to see how things were going with
him with regard to his job.

To save time with ref to this point, you can read
this link from 31st January 2002

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5230

We became good friends and go out for a drink
about once a month, plus if he feels adventurous
he will come flying with me!!!!!!!

Some time after September 11th, when he had
been to hell and back with regard to whether he
had a secure job, he started doing his pilot
interview technique courses.

Me being in the job that I am in, and having lots
and lots of pilot friends who already fly for a living
but want to move on up the ladder, I would mention
Pete's course work and advise them to pay him
a visit.

I've also got to know lots of wannabes at my local
flying school, where I have a share in a 150, and
would do the same there, passing Pete's name
onto them for that final touch to their training.

The starting post on this topic by high-flyer give me
an opportunity to mention Pilot Pete's course work,
and yes from time to time I have brought the post
back to the top of the pile by adding to it whilst
bringing it to the attention of others.

At no time whats so ever has Pete asked me to post
anything on pprune with regard to his PIT courses.

Yes I agree that it does look like free advertising but
the only reason I keep bringing the post to the
attention of others is for them to become aware
of his excellent service.

VirginSkid, I would like you to clear up one point for me

You said in your post

"do not know of Pete's course but its all very general ...
but EGCC4284 continous canvassing only tell me something else...."

What is it that my so called canvassing is telling you??

I am concerned that your comment may send the
wrong signals to all other wannabes out there with
regard to Pilot Pete and would appreciate you
elaborating as to what exactly you are hinting at.

As for Penny Austin and the guy's at AOT, I am sure
they are also excellent at what they do.

I cannot comment on them as I have not experienced
their service and do not know of anyone who has,
apart from Pete, who, yes, I believe attended one
of Penny's classes some time ago.
He also rates her as highly as you do.

I do not intend posting on this thread anymore,
apart from replying to you VirginSkid, or anyone
else with regard to your post referring
this to free advertising.

If you are going to get all upset about this, I'm sorry.

Scroggs, Keygrip and Wee Weasley, if you feel that
this is free advertising I apologise.

I thought the whole point of pprune was to help
others to gain useful information and help from
our mentors.

If anyone was to do a search on all the posts
that Pilot Pete had replied to or started on pprune
and took the time to read them, then I'm sure that
everyone would realise that his input to pprune is
an awful lot more constructive and useful than
bickering about somebody else getting publicity
for a service they provide.

I use to be addicted to pprune and read it as often
as possible, but over the last 12-18 months do not
bother as much due to the lack of mature constructive
posts from guy's who genuinely want to pass on their
knowledge and experience.

One last point.

The guy who taught me to fly in 1999 at Welshpool,
and who has ATPL CPL/IR with thousands of hours
and hundreds of twin time, had been trying for the
last 5 years to get his first break. He is 38 years old.
I told him of Pete's course which he attended in April.

He had an interview with a major carrier 2 weeks ago
and was in the sim last Thursday ????????
I wish him luck


And to all that read this or any other post by me.

I already know that my grammar and spelling is
not very good but the one thing I'm best at is
being honest.

Regards Rob

sycamore tree expert, or is it sickamore???

Dear EGCC4284

A very good post indeed. Sorry did I strike a nerve. Well please let me clear this that was not my intention.

To be fair everytime this post comes about it feels likes you bring it up and you do post on other forums as well. So be it.

I can see your admiration to Pete, and to be honest after reading your material and his I feel this too. But when you are cascading his information constantly it looks like free advertsing to me possibly for a commission......(I am not saying that you are but I fell like this is slightly overdone!)

I never at any point stated that PP might have asked you to do this.

TCare
VS

in addition to a previous post, Is there anyone here who can give me a detailed plan or advise how to set out and what to include in my cv?
the difference is that i'm being interviewd for a conditional offer on a training course and not a job, therefore don't have any type ratings or additional flying hours, but do have abit of experience and other relevances to the aviation feild. Other than this it's just my aviation related job and academic qualificaions, and to be honest, from reading the forums I believe it's what's different from the others that gives you a good sted, and since I'm being interviewed, I think its wise to get a background info about the aviation feild. any advice would be helpful.:)

You can take a lot of the above with several pinches of salt. Nothing wrong with the Microsoft templates - I use one myself, and contrary to other advice, mine is also 5 pages long. Don't get stressed up putting it all on one page - BUT - put all the relevant stuff on page 1 - if I want more information, I want it NOW, and I will not pick up the phone if I have 500 resumes to sift through. Imagine what you would want to know yourself as a Chief Pilot - that will tell you what to put on the first page.

Bear in mind that a resume gets you an interview, not a job, and the screener looks at it for 8 seconds before putting it in a pile. Don't give them an excuse to put it on the wrong one!

It certainly should be neat and well-spaced, with black printing on white paper (for scanning) and if you've taken the trouble to use a microsoft one, or even better a Framemaker one, it at least tells me you are computer literate to a certain degree.

Otherwise, no photos, no aol email addresses, referees will be taken up later, so you don't need them right now. However.......

YOUR COVERING LETTER IS OFTEN MORE IMPORTANT!

Read that again

And again

That's because it is a focussing device.

Good luck!

Phil

Try Pilot Pete - I did his course a while back. I use one of the templates he suggested, which is pretty close to some of the good advice in this thread.

His website is www.pittraining.co.uk

why don't put photos on the cv?

It's yucky, same as having an aol email address. Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger, but it's true.

phil

You can take a lot of the above with several pinches of salt. Nothing wrong with the Microsoft templates - I use one myself, and contrary to other advice, mine is also 5 pages long. Don't get stressed up putting it all on one page - BUT - put all the relevant stuff on page 1 - if I want more information, I want it NOW, and I will not pick up the phone if I have 500 resumes to sift through. Imagine what you would want to know yourself as a Chief Pilot - that will tell you what to put on the first page.
Bear in mind that a resume gets you an interview, not a job, and the screener looks at it for 8 seconds before putting it in a pile. Don't give them an excuse to put it on the wrong one!
It certainly should be neat and well-spaced, with black printing on white paper (for scanning) and if you've taken the trouble to use a microsoft one, or even better a Framemaker one, it at least tells me you are computer literate to a certain degree.
Otherwise, no photos, no aol email addresses, referees will be taken up later, so you don't need them right now. However.......
YOUR COVERING LETTER IS OFTEN MORE IMPORTANT!
Read that again
And again
That's because it is a focussing device.
Good luck!
Phil

Phil, I can see from your profile that you are a helicopter man. I don't know what your history is, and it may be that helicopter companies want to read an applicant's life history, but it simply will not wash with airlines. In mine and several others, if the CV is too long and full of irrelevant padding it will get binned. There's no maybe about it. Remember that this advice is aimed at wannabes trying to get into UK airlines; cultural differences in other parts of the world may mean that the hyperbolic short novel is an acceptable airline resume. Not here.

As for computer literacy, I don't really give a monkey's! If you've just passed your MCC and done a JOC or similar, I can be reasonably satisfied that you can push the right buttons on an FMS. Your facility with Windoze may impress if you want to be an office worker, but are not particularly relevant in a 737.

I don't understand the objection to AOL e-mail addresses. I can understand why those who aren't fully up to date with net mail issues might not like Hotmail, but not AOL.

As for the covering letter, I think Phil's advice may be salient if you're speculatively applying for a position in a very small organisation. If you're after an airline job, there is less need for star quality and more need to fit the desired profile.

However, these days most UK airlines require you to apply using their own online forms, so the opportunity for attempting to shine via a CV is diminishing! Where a CV is required in UK, stick with our advice above. If you're still unsure, go and do a day with Pete (above) or Penny Austin, both of whom will fill in the details but give you broadly the same advice as I have. If you're looking in other parts of the world, you'll need to find out about the local jobseeker's culture. It may be that Phil's advice is more relevant in those places, but don't try it here!

Scroggs

Please, please, get the spelling and grammar right. I have seen so many CVs go into the bin because of a simple lack of care. I like to see a summary at the beginning of a CV.

why don't put photos on the cv?Because they way you look shouldn't determine your capabilty to do the job, and because you don't know who is screening the CVs. It could be some young girl that favours one applicant to another just on looks alone.

the screener looks at it for 8 seconds before putting it in a pile Absolutely correct! The page is scanned for the relevant information (ie ratings, hours, etc) then if it qualifies then all the details are read more closely. If you have written something the selector doesnt agree with, finds odd or puts you in a bad light, it will go in a 'review' pile or into the 'no' pile.

One thing you shouldn't do is mention hobbies, interests, favourite teams or any clubs you are members of. If the selector hates stampcollectors, Arsenal, or morris dancing, then you'll have no chance. You also don't want to paint a false impression of our personality on paper. Leave it for the interview.

Leave references off. They are not needed yet. Please remember aviation is a small world, it's likely one of your referees could be someone disliked by the selector, or is an aquaintance and a quick call and few informal questions could land you on the 'no' pile. A written reference when requested will give less flexibility for 'off the record' comments. Don't forget in the UK an employer is not allowed to give a negative written reference, but an informal phonecall can...



As suggested already, keep it to one side of A4.
Ensure you have your personal details on the letter, and your name at the foot of the CV.
Bulletpoints keep it neat and make it easier on the eye.
Supply dates of employment, company name and position held, then a short paragraph on your responsibilites. The more recent, the more info.
Make sure the layout is tidy, aligned and easy to follow.
Supply a short letter of introduction, outlining briefly your skills, what you're looking for (you can leave this vague if you are mailing out your CV to multiple companies).
Resist the temptation for pretty colours, menu style paper folding and pictures. They may just get passed around as a novelty item to look at (harsh but true!)
If your e-mail address is at all unprofessional, get one that isn't and use that one for jobhunting replies.

Either way, good luck!

Another question..should one put flying experience first or education( I put education first)? I have sent my CV, with a photo,to many airlines and to my surprise I had emails from nearly all of them, stating that my CV will be kept on file. I spoke to Mr Dandeker at Loganair, and he said CV designs are important. I used a word-based template, very snazzy, but professional. I know I may have answered my own question, but just looking for what anyone else has done. Cheers.

Aviation is a small world.

An applicant could one day be a manager somewhere.

A standard response is usually sent out to advise they have received your details and will either call you, invite you for interview, or tell you you're being put on file and 'contacted should a suitable position arise sometime in the future'.

Basically they keep your CV incase either their prerequisites change, or one day you've increased your hours, gained types, etc and they can contact you again one day to offer you an opportunity.

Because they havent just ignored your application, you wil see them as a good employer.

Put your flying experience first - that's what your potential employer is most interested in. As was said a long time ago, avoid non-specific templates unless you can customise them to the recommended aviation format. The fact that some companies replied to you says more about the companies than about your CV!

Don't buck the UK aviation CV norms just to be different; it may be counter-productive. Individualism is not encouraged in a profession that requires people who must strictly follow rules, and excessive signs of it in your CV are likely to see it posted on the HR office noticeboard to be used as a darts target. If you are tempted to try and show your character in your CV, pick something else to do for an hour or so and go back to writing the CV when the feeling has passed!

Scroggs

I did the Pilot Pete, CV and interview preperation course myself and very good it was too. Pete did convince me that it is worth including sensible hobbies and interests after all. Sure, the first thing they are going to look at is your experience and if that it not to suit, you're gone. If it's good though, hobbies and interests can show that you are a fun, well rounded individual. The kind of person you'd like to fly with perhaps? It also gives you a human face better than a dodgy passport style picture can. If the only thing that you have to offer is 250hrs and they have not chucked you out yet, it may clinch you an interview

I agree. Don't get me wrong; we don't want faceless grey men, but we do want conventional people without too great a streak of individuality which might be incompatible with a safety-critical team operation. By all means let us know what things interest you, but don't leave any hostages to fortune. We might be fascinated to learn that you're a football enthusiast, but it might be more than we can take if you say you're an Arsenal supporter!

Scroggs

Edit: ah, I see you're replying to one of 6MH's points. Well, there he and I will have to agree to disagree. In my company, we feel it's important to know that you have something other than aviation to talk about on a 14 hour leg!

You're not preparing a standard CV but a pilot CV, very different presentation from perhaps being a shop assistant or a bank manager.

As a regular reader of pilot CV's please cut the crap about 'how I would most welcome to join your esteemed company, your company is the best thing since sliced bread etc.', forget it. As soon as one reads that one detects that you're not qualified for the job you hope to secure, you're going to bore the reader, and one quickly moves onto the next CV in the pile.

Start with a short general introduction, name, address, date of birth, contact information and perhaps make mention that you are willing to relocate as required.

Hours, first write your total hours, don't beat around the bush itemising times on C172, C152, times in a F100 simulator during an MCC course, the fact that you one attended a simulator seesion for 55 minutes in a B737 sim. Cut to the chase, itemise SEP, MEP, PIC and P2 but before these be up front that you have a very low total time.

Then any relevant employment history, I had one CV where he'd worked as Father Christmas at the Trafford Centre in Manchester, no don't mention such a thing guys, just aviation related work or a reputable profession such as a copper or something.

Also speak English, not American, unless you are applying for a job in USA of course, none of this FAR125 or Part 135 carrier or whatever, who gives a
sh1t what type of carrier it was, what type of damn aeroplane were you flying buddy?

Of course mention your licences, particularly mention if it is issued in accordance with JAR FCL, mention your MCC but if you are a low time pilot then present a low time CV, not line after line, page after page, of bu11sh1t!

I agree with touch&go. Don't be so bl**dy lazy. Put some research and effort in and try to make yours a little different. All in all I must have spent about 3 days getting mine to a standard I was happy with. You won't get all the answers to getting a job here. There is no magic CV, plus you are competing, whether you like it or not, against all your compatriots in terms of training. Strain every mental sinew to try to make your application stand out. However, do not expect someone here to hand you a CV. It's not fair on them and labels you as a slacker....

Sphinx, it would appear that you decided to reply to Jinkster without reading the rest of the thread? This is a useful topic, and opinions from those who know what they're talking about (sadly, not all those who replied) are valuable advice for those who've never thought about writing an aviation CV.

Scroggs

At the end of the day the company are going to ask that their application form be completed and ask yourself why?

Because everything is laid out in exactly the same format for every applicant, this makes it easier to read and easier to establish who are the best canditature for the job.

They do not want to read itemisations on non relevant MCC simulator time, different SEP's etc. to establish that after 2 pages of crap the guy only has 250 hours, tell them that straight away because no matter where they read it, with 250 hours you're either going to get the job or you're not.

Bullsh1tting only serves to irritate the reader!

Several good posts and snippets of advice so far. I will see if I can add something.

Think about your CV from the viewpoint of the READER, ie the airline recruiter. Don't assume it will be the Chief Pilot who is going to be the one to filter it and call you for interview. It may well be in a small outfit, but the larger airlines will have an HR department that deals with ALL company recruitment.

The important things to remember are;

1. They will get hundreds of pilot CVs.
2. They are busy people.
3. They will filter those CVs to get them down to a sensible number to consider further.
4. It may well be as arbitrary as just taking the top handful off the pile.....
5. You need to meet their minimum requirements.
6. They need to be able to see easily that you meet their requirements.
7. They need to be able to get hold of you easily (by phone).
8. They are looking for certain things, like number of hours/ types, previous relevant work history, certain skills sets.
9. If it looks crap, it probably is crap.

And the list could probably go on and on.....

So, what are you to make from all this? Well, it's all about risk, or rather minimising the risk of being binned. You have to be in the right pile to stand a chance of getting a selection. So, you simply must do everything possible to ensure you don't give them a reason to bin your CV. For instance, if they want 2500hrs heavy jet and you have 250hrs piston, well, no prizes for guessing which pile your CV is going into......

You cannot control their minimum requirements, you either meet them or you don't, so if you don't you can't expect to get a call - your CV has been speculative in the extreme and may well have just been a waste of time. You can however control things like the layout, style, spelling and content, so in my opinion you simply MUST control these elements.

I see hundreds of pilot CVs and the one thing that is consistent amongst them is that they ALL have some sort of mistake in them, be it spelling, grammar, punctuation, formatting, length, font size, telephone number incorrect (I kid you not - 18 months with no response and I found his telephone number had two digits transposed!!). Why is this? It's not just my opinion on content, it is REAL mistakes like typos and spelling. Use a dictionary and check the difference between LICENCE and LICENSE!!

So, one small spelling mistake is not going to necessarily get you binned, but why take the risk? Why not make the effort to get it just right? If you can't spot the mistakes (which you won't always as you wrote it!), get someone with a good grasp of English to proof read it for you. But they do need to be independent as often the missus will be so hacked off with you and your training by the time it gets to the CV that she will at best give it a cursory glance!!

So let's take the guy who has two or three spelling mistakes, a couple of punctuation errors, can't format documents properly in Word and uses the 'space bar' to indent his paragraphs so things don't quite line up, uses BOLD, ITALICS, UNDERLINES (and CAPS) for his headings and uses his 5 year old Epson Stylus which puts a few feint black lines down every page and what have you got? A CV which is offering them numerous reasons for it to be placed in the bin, hence the risk has not been minimised. That is even before considering the content!

The more flying experience you have, the less other detail you need on your CV. If you have a big jet type rating, 4000hrs total time and command experience, well this in itself will pretty much be enough to get you in the 'further consideration' pile (assuming it meets their minimum requirements). If however you have 170hrs and have just graduated from flight school then you really need to take extra care and offer them a bit more which will make you stand out from the other low houred applicants. This is where relevant previous work history and non-work activities can make you stand out as being more interesting and possibly more suitable. Consider these two applicants;

1. 250hrs, fATPL, 24 years old, always wanted to fly, only previous work history was as Santa Claus in the Trafford Centre.

2. 250hrs, fATPL, 24 years old, has wanted to fly since being in the Air Cadets at the age of 13, has extensive glider experience with them and has gone on to be an Adult Instructor, giving time back to the organisation that taught him firstly how to fly and much more besides including the Duke of Edinburgh's Gold Award. All the way through his training he has worked at Manchester Airport as a Dispatcher and has networked several management pilots as contacts, 4 of whom have asked for him to let them know when he has qualified and to give them his CV.

So candidate 2 has done more with his time, he has demonstrated a real desire to be involved in the aviation industry, has gained more 'life experience', has demonstrated many desirable qualities of a pilot through his work and spare time activities and seems highly motivated. Get that lot down in a CV and I think you can see that it will look more desirable than cadidate 1. Having said that, with low hours it is still extremely competitive and both may well miss out anyway, but that is another issue. So the less flying experience you have, the more other things come into the reckoning, such as work history, hobbies and interests. It's not rocket science, how else are they going to distinguish between low houred pilots who all have exactly the same qualifications? Oh, and education. Again, the more you have done since leaving full time education, the less relevance it has. However, with both the above candidates, one with 'A' levels, the other with a string of detentions to his name, well it could make a difference, but your ATPL exams are usually enough to demonstrate the required ability at book work. For sponsorships it’s different though and many stipulate a minimum academic achievement as a filter.

Don't pad it out with waffle, keep it clear and to the point. Remember it is a 'snap-shot', not an exhaustive history. The idea is to demonstrate your suitability for the job, not to list all the tasks that you did as a bank clerk in Barclays during the 1990s....

Good luck.

PP

Edited to add:

These are my thoughts on pilot CVs, we're all different and one employer may think it is great and another not. Research is important for your cover letter and for the CV.

One last point about the 'Profile' that many put at the top of their CV. Some like it, some don't. My opinion is that it is a short paragraph of management speak bull-shit. How about this:

A consummate professional with a proven track record. Excellent communication skills and an ability to work as part of a team and on own initiative when required. Extensive experience in IT and familiarity with several Microsoft products such as the Office Suite and Outlook. A team leader, destined for management.

My 8 year old could claim all this and it offers little of substance in my mind. Better to tell them in your 'Work Experience' section about your previous job or your non-work related activities, offering EVIDENCE of these abilities and not just making CLAIMS about them.

How about this:

Eight years with the Metropolitan Police, rising to the rank of Sergeant and culminating with two years as a Firearms Officer in SO19. The various roles have required an ability to work as part of a wider team, utilising sound communications and decision-making skills, often in difficult circumstances and under extreme pressure. Accuracy of report writing and record keeping needed discipline and thoroughness.

You could even leave the second paragraph with just the first sentence as the job pretty much speaks for itself, through implication.

Get the idea?

are likely to see it posted on the HR office noticeboard to be used as a darts target.

Oh so true!! I had to laugh!

I was once sent a CV where he was desperate for a job with total experience of 30 hours on R22. He had tarted his CV up so much that by the time I'd finished reading it, I was almost convinced I had misread it! The guy had made himself out to be a Concorde Skipper, with membership of every exclusive club and professional body.

10 out of 10 for effort though.

My colleague screwed it up and threw it in the bin. I felt this was unfair, so after replying with the usual 'put on file' etc, made it into a paper concorde.

That CV provided a whole 10 minutes of wasted reading time, and a whole 10 minutes of fun throwing it around the office! :}

I received a CV in the past few days, the guy is applying for a position, where he must be type rated, on a particular type of aircraft.

His CV makes no mention whatsoever of any type rating(s) however makes mention that he has some hours in this particular type simulator.

Now is the guy rated or not, I suspect not and I suspect that this simulator time was during an MCC, or similar, course.

However I have needed to perhaps waste my time going back to the guy to ask him a direct question, are you type rated?

If he is not rated then this guy has wasted my time by bullsh1tting on his CV and not only will this application be filed in file 13 but any future applications from this guy will find their way to file 13 also.

When someone is reviewing your CV for a job they don’t have all day to search for the information they need. If it’s longer than 1 A4 page and the information is hard to find then the person reviewing it will in all probability bin the CV. That may sound very harsh but when you have several hundred CVs to review every day it becomes a necessity.

What you put on a CV is really dependant on what and where the job is. If you’re applying for a position in the UK and you already live there then the international dialing code and your citizenship isn’t really required, however, if you’re applying for a job in a different country then those 2 items are very useful. If you’re using a specific address for eg flight crew then putting down that you’re seeking a captain’s position is a bit superfluous. Also, if the company specifically recruits people to a FO position before shifting seats then it means you haven’t done any research on that specific company.

Other errors I have seen recently are padded hours. Don’t do it. If you think that the HR department won’t know the difference then think again. One person had wrote that he’d been a FA and had sat in on many approaches and thus it means he’s got more experience. Maybe but if you can’t log it you can’t claim it. When a person is reviewing your CV they want to see very quickly how many hours you have and a general break down of those hours. Night hours aren’t really a necessary thing to high light in Europe but your multi crew time is. Twin time is ok to high light as well.

One of the most frustrating error is to have no phone number included or worse, an incorrect one. You can’t get a call if you don’t put a phone number on it. Be very careful about the email you use. flyboy@<hidden> does not give a good impression.

Please do some research on the company you’ve sent a CV to. There’s plenty of information out there on the company websites and of course, PPRuNe. I found it very frustrating when asked what did they know about our company to be told “not much”. I don’t expect a potential candidate to know absolutely every thing about the company esp when being cold called but a general idea is fine.


Also, if you’re putting out CVs that means you hope to be interviewed. I don’t know of many interviews these days that don’t ask some basic JAR OPS or Performance type of questions. Please dig out your books and brush up on the basics. You may even find it useful for your renewals. Of course a word perfect answer isn’t expected but a general idea is useful. Eg, balanced airfield. While “I don’t know” is an honest answer it’s not really acceptable. If the person had replied “I can’t remember exactly but it has something to do with take off performance” that would have been much better.

Practice working through CRM or operational scenarios. Work out plans of action and practice talking about them. Eg inflight diversions, ill passengers and the like.

If the position states that English must be spoken and you’re not a native English speaker start practicing! This is vital. When writing the covering letter, please don’t use an internet translator. It really looks strange and it immediately flags that you’re not fluent in the language.

An absolute no no in my opinion is to be doing something else whilst you’re been screened. Can you imagine what impression it gives to the company calling you about a possible interview and you’re tapping away on your computer? Esp if you’ve asked the company to ring you back because the first time wasn’t convenient.

Above all, be honest. If you don’t know something, say so. Bullshitting never works. Also, this industry is a very small one. The person you annoyed in flight school or in the previous job just might be the one reviewing your application. You can imagine what would happen to your CV.

Here is a template for pilots. Some may criticise it, but at least it is tidy - some of the resumes that come across my desk would disgrace a fish and chip shop.

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/templates/TC063694661033.aspx?CategoryID=CT010317021033

It's a bit fiddly to download and comes down as a cab file. I think the layout could be improved (needs a bit more white space), but it's a start.

With reference to other comments - each company is unfortunately different (ring them up and ask what they like to see). The company I currently work for likes photos - the one I previously worked for didn't - and that was a major UK public company, which also appreciated my 5-page cv so much that it got me through to the interview (I was told afterwards). But then, that was a management position - for a pilot position it would have been suitably edited, although it still wouldn't have been on one page. As I said previously - try to get it on one, but don't get stressed out if you can't - just make sure the important stuff, like hours, typeratings, availability, contact details is on the front page. And anyway, as a professional, your cv will be short, competent and to the point, won't it? :) And as Scroggs says, too much individualism should be avoided, certainly in the larger companies.

I guess photos are OK if they are going to be seen directly by the recruiter, but if they are going to be filtered through a human remains department, who will not only be dealing with pilot cvs, I would leave them out - as one poster above states quite correctly, there may be a bias at the screening stage (and remember, it's the screener's job to screen you out - they are there to whittle the pile of applications to manageable proportions).

Remember your resume is your brochure and if you don't take the trouble to get it right, how do I know you're going to pay attention to detail in the cockpit? Or take the trouble to fill in Tech Log pages correctly? And tidily? It's not just the cockpit that's important - you may be able to play with the FMS buttons OK, but when it comes to filling in the paperwork after the flight, I want to know you are going to be able to use the office computer correctly and not pass extra work on to the ops department.

Taking Fairweather's point, hobbies and stuff could be useful if you are low on hours and want to demonstrate some transferable skills. If they require a certain amount of mixing with other people, then that would be useful from a CRM point of view. If they are loner-type hobbies I would leave them out. Pilot Pete's comments are with reference against experience are dead on.

It is a modern world, and computer literacy is almost a prerequisite these days. As for aol addresses, most people in IT regard aol as being geared down to 12-year olds. 'nuff said. I know this is aviation, but read the first part of this sentence again.

And BTW - I am a helicopter and fixed Wing man - I have UK ATPLs in both subjects, and have been up to the dizzy heights of general manager of a small airline. I am also more qualified in IT than I am in aviation.

Phil

Phil, your link doesn't work - at least, not for me.

I can understand why a 5-page CV might be appropriate for an experienced industry professional applying for a management position, but there is no way that any screener in the HR departments of the airlines I am familiar with would accept such a document from an applicant for a junior FO position. I very much doubt whether most of our wannabes could get to five pages even if they wrote a paragraph for every year of their lives! In any case, the CV would be in the bin before the end of the second page if the screener can't find the essential information they need. In fact, I frankly fail to see what you could possibly relevently put on an airline CV that could take it beyond one page!

I reiterate: a speculative CV for a junior line pilot position is not an opportunity to eulogise about your superior personal qualities. It is simply a list of appropriate experience and qualifications with comprehensive contact details. That's about it. Later stages of the recruiting process will reveal your personality, and give you the opportunity to tell the airline how your ability to think outside the box will produce a synergistic solution going forward into the future aviation paradigm, or some such management-speak rubbish. I imagine that any attempt to take that kind of line will be shortly followed by a guided tour of the exit, however! Line FOs are not employed to out-think the airline's management and marketing force, even at BA!

One page. Photo if you wish. List your flying experience, aviation jobs held (if any), relevent qualifications and contact details. Interests can be there if they're not too wacky. Comprehensive contact details are essential. Make sure it's accurate, mistake-free, and easily understood. Don't bullshit, or tell me how my airline will be transformed by your presence. Include a covering letter detailing what position you're applying for, a short narrative of how you came to be where you are and why you want to work for me. That is it, Nothing else.

Scroggs

Scroggs.. What experince do you have? Do you work at any airline as a pilot or recruiter?

Check his profile matey, you'll find all your answers ;)

Scroggs.. What experince do you have? Do you work at any airline as a pilot or recruiter?

Yes. :hmm:

Scroggs

Scroggs - I quite agree with you - for a junior FO, one page should be enough. I was only trying to counter the popular arguments that that is all you will ever need, or that templates are no good, by showing an example of how the opposite works as well. Following on from that, that people should do a little research and work on their resumes to the absolute best of their abilities, because that is your initial contact with any company and a reminder of what you were like once the process is over.

Phil

for a junior FO, one page should be enough

Those are the only people we're dealing with here, Phil - the experienced guys go to Terms and Endearments. That said, my own CV is still one page - though I could fill 20 or more!

Scroggs

Just updated the link from my previous post - it works from this end of the world:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/templates/TC063694661033.aspx?CategoryID=CT010317021033

Phil

I've read through this thread and it gives a lot of good advice for writing CVs for those who have pilot licenses. I agree that flying experience should be put at the top, followed by education/work experience. But I am about 18 hours into my PPL and am applying for "sponsorships". Any advice in this situation? I'm thinking putting my flying experience at the very top is probably not the best idea, and my degree should go there instead?

Thanks,

fW

Scroggs.. What experince do you have? Do you work at any airline as a pilot or recruiter?

Yes. :hmm:

Scroggs


Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus...I could not believe it! And check the nick of this guy...!

Oh, dear...I symphatize with you sir.

PZ :ok:

FemaleWannabe I'm not sure how many of the kind of schemes you're looking at would require any kind of CV. As far as I am aware, the vast majority require scheme-specific application forms to be filled out, or simply a large cheque to be given to some bean-counter or other. Can you give us more information?

Scroggs

FemaleWannabe I'm not sure how many of the kind of schemes you're looking at would require any kind of CV. As far as I am aware, the vast majority require scheme-specific application forms to be filled out, or simply a large cheque to be given to some bean-counter or other. Can you give us more information?

Scroggs

Hi Scroggs,

For one of the selection schemes (thomson) they ask that you take photocopies of qualifications etc to the selection day (no cheque required for this one :O ). They also said to take copies of anything else you think may be relevant. So I thought I would take my CV as I have a "career" at the moment and have a reasonable amount of work experience from during uni and school. None of it is aviation related (and neither is my current job or degree) but i thought at least showing that I have worked and have some sort of life experience would be a good thing. I'm planning to keep the descriptions very short and if they want to know more about a specific job, they can ask during the interview.

fW

In that case, the format is immaterial. Take what you think you need, and allow them to decide whether or not it's relevant.

Scroggs

Have had a search on here and had no joy...can anyone advise where on my CV i put my PPL / night rating / hours etc.

I was thinking below my qualifications but above my work history?

Thanks for your help.

V1

Here is a template from Oxford Aviation for an aviation related c.v. Don't know if it will help.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/career/cv.htm

V1: There's probably a million views on where to put them for best effect.
Here's my view:
If you don't have a substantial amount of hours, I wouldn't bother except for the total time and PIC time. Being a lowtimer the recruiter will know you have around 50 or so hours IFR, so and so much ME etc. Specifying allmost non-existent hours just looks pathetic and that information is best left aside. If you want to specify, it's better to give them which types you've flown.

The CV that gave me my first job had all details regarding my lincenses and hours at the very top. That's what's most important, all else is mostly nice to know stuff. That way the recruiter doesn't have to read through the whole CV before establishing that you are qualified for the job.

I'm no expert on these matters, I'm just talking out of experience with regard to my first job-producing CV. Please disregard any spellingmistakes, it's the day after...

Best of luck / LnS

Hi All,
I just have a quick question about sending CV's via email.
Having just left the forces and being somewhat new to the job hunting scene I was wondering what peoples views were on sending CVs with an attached covering letter. The question is , is there a requirement for an electronic covering letter or is a brief explanation about who you are and what you are sending them enough.
Any help with this question would be appreciated.
Thanks all.

Hi all.

Sim hours are obviously logged in the simulator time section of your log book and they are not supposed to count towards your total time but after looking through a few threads here this morning i have noticed that when some people are referring to their experience they are stating that they have for example: 300 hrs TT( including Sim ).
I have not been putting any of my Sim hours(55 hours) on CV's, online applications etc. Do you think i should include this in my TT?
Would be interested to know what other people have done with this?

Definitely do not include them in your total time. Chief Pilots will be less than impressed if you turn up for interview with less hours than you've claimed. Do, however, include them seperately on your cv. Having a lot of sim time isn't neccessarily clever unless you've done lots of type ratings. It might just show that you've taken longer to achieve the standard. Furthermore, unless it's a a full-motion level whatever sim, I don't think claiming FNPT II hrs will really make much of a difference to your employability.

Ham Phisted,



Any hours logged during a Type-rating in a LEVEL D Simulator can be counted as actual hours "on type". in remarks, state "level D sim". This is EASA , and even if the UK CAA doesn't agree on this, it is allowed.

ANY other simulator time must be entered in the simulator section. Ramshorn, I would suggest that you separate simulator from actual if you are ab-initio without a type-rating. It gives employers a better overview.

Missing the point. He's asking about putting sim hrs on a cv. I fully understand that level D sim hrs can be counted towards TT for licencing purposes for example for issue of ATPL. However, as the chap has a CPL with Duchess rating he's hardly likely to have any level D hrs only FNPT II time. I stand by my assertion that it would be unwise to conceal FNPT II time (or any sim tim for that matter) within tt on a cv.

HI

Could someone please direct me to a good site or link in this forum with respect to creating my CV for job application.

Thanks:ok:

Hello guys,

I need a favor: Do European airlines expect the cover letter and/or resume to be written under certain criteria different from the United States one? Can anybody point me to a site or (if possible) send me some materia that could help me writing a cover letter and resume that will be accepted by European airlines? I would greatly appreciate the help. Regards all!

Ok guys,
Please, if you are going to send CV's off spec for God sake keep in to one page and make sure that your hours, types flown and aviation qualifications are easy to read and in bold type near the top of the page.
If you do this then I wont have to put so many in the bin because I have not got time to read the small print.

If I like what I see then you will be put on the 'to look at pile' and then I can read all the rest later.

Oh and I really don't care what your hobbies are even if you are into dogging or train spotting but that's just a personal thing.

Had one today that was 8 pages long. So bloody frustrating both for you and for me.

Hope this helps.

Col....

8 pages !! That's nothing. We once had one from a German chap of nearly 40 pages. We still have it for comedy value (I may even read it one day).

so who should i be sending my 1 page cv to rapa pilot?? sorry, but i just couldnt resisit asking who recruiting!

Rapa,

Mate, all they are doing is weeding themselves out for you. Anyone who hasnt worked out yet that their CV needs to be 1 page long and minus their hobbies probably isnt bright enough to get a job flying anyway. We all know what employers want and its been said here many times before.
If you are employing, first impressions count big time so why not listen to yours.

Or......Is your company so desperate for pilots you have to read the crap CVs. That really would be a first for aviation in this day and age!

OSOP

Reminds me of a chief pilot picking up half the mountain of CVs on his desk and putting them straight in the bin.
His secretary said '"you can't do that those poor guys are looking for a job!"
His response was "I don't want unlucky pilots working for this airline and they were unlucky!"

Happy days:O

8 pages or 40 pages!! :eek:
anyway it is not very surprising... because once I saw a CV from Belgian, 2 pages...
my europeans friends I do not know your customs about looking for a job but i can say you in France if you send a cv with 2 pages, it will go directly to trash...
CV in one page, that's all.

If said newly qualified pilots are sending in CVs going into 2/3/4 pages it could be due to such a requirement for their previous industry and therefore probably more down to lack of knowledge about what aviation HR depts require rather than showing off. My current CV uses size 8 fonts and goes into it's 4th page (only just). Why? Well, in the IT sector your CV goes into a database that is queried for key terms, i.e. brands and technologies. The more you have, the more likely it is you will be mail-shotted by a recruiter and they really don't mind going through such CVs. I've had over 10 interviews and 3 jobs with it. Not a problem.

If the aviation HR depts want a 1 page CV, that's fine by me, although I do think it's rediculous as such little information may as well be conveyed in an email signature.

His response was "I don't want unlucky pilots working for this airline and they were unlucky!"

That's just abusing one's power! Typical of this industry. So there you are. A different take on the subject for you. :ok:

"I don't want unlucky pilots working for this airline and they were unlucky!"

That's just abusing one's power!

Blooming funny though.... :ok:

CV's dont really matter.

It's who you know, how many hours and the type of experience you have in this game.

Or, just good luck !!:ok:

I haven't been involved in airline recruitment, but have done a bit in IT.

Any CV with 'can work alone AND in a team' goes straight in the bin.

If you do decide to start of with one of those personal statements, at least try to come up with something original.

PS: got asked by an HR chap in an interview a couple of years ago (IT, not flying) "Are you a team player?"

Much to the amusement of my prospective boss (a techie) I answered: "If I knew I wasn't, do you think I'd say 'no' during a job interview?"

I got the job.

Do not under any circumstances confuse an aviation CV with one for any other kind of employment. Airlines are not after personal advertisements of talent, qualities and such like, simply a statement of experience and (aviation) employment or (brief) training history. There is plenty of information within this thread and the other linked to from the 'READ THIS FIRST' sticky. Read it!

As RAPA Pilot says, one page. If I can do it, so can anyone!

Scroggs

ABO994. you are right and wrong. Yes the industry is very small and the longer you are in it the smaller it gets as you make contacts. I meet many people who know someone somewhere who worked with so and so who was such and suches instructor and so on. Having said that if you are new to the business then your only advertising window is the blind CV notwithstanding online applications, and thats exactly how I got my break. My Chief constantly reminds me of how lucky I was because my CV was on the top of the pile, he phoned me at 19:30 hrs and I started the next day, interview was over the phone. He was desperate and I was available.(I'm talking jobs here:) ). There again I remind him of how lucky he is to have such a great employee:8 .

When asked to upload your CV via a company website (not fill in the online form). Should I be uploading a cover letter also or just load up the standard pilot one page CV.
Any thoughts?

Yep, just wondering the same thing! Should the cover letter be the email or an attachment to the email with the CV?

It was mentioned earlier in the thread but no response. Anyone with experience shed light?

kempus

Type a very short covering letter addressed correctly with you hours and qualifications then attach your CV in word format.
Col..

Ok quick rant. Just been sorting cv's today.
1 Get the name of person you are writing to correct.
2 If this is a general mailshot make sure the letter in the envelope is for the same company as the address on the envelope.
3 Type letter/cv.
4 Structure your letter correctly.
5 Put on e-mail address.
6 Get the type of a/c a company operates correct.
7 Make sure cv is clear and easy to read.
8 Put hours on cv.
9 Put DOB on cv.
10 Have something interesting to say in letter or cv. 9 cv's saved from bin due to a decent letter or something that made us laugh. Especially if you are low hours.
About 35 cv's went into bin due to the first 8 reasons.
AD

I hope you shredded them before binning them.

Too many people are careless with other people's personal information (and i doubt that many airline recruitment websites are secure).

Jocundity? Knock a few grand of the SSTR and my agent will consider it. But at least I can continue to not mention my advanced years ;)

Prompted by post below, are these points for real :bored:

wow you would assume to any professional pilot these points are common sence :}

Also avoid typing mistakes e.g. person you are writing too
as in 1. above

Make sure a sentence makes complete sense.


2 If general mailshot make sure company in letter is in envelope for that company

I think some of African Drunk's points are useful though. It's always good to get insider information and if we continue like this it's not going to happen any more.

Rubbish! His points are merely common sense - and badly written to boot.

Well evidently not common sense to 35 pilots.

[Shakes head and sighs]

This is why so few professional pilots bother posting on this forum. It's useful, sensible advice, and I have binned CVs (non-pilot ones) for exactly the same reasons.

Well bully for you!

Look it's no good people coming on here asserting stuff which anyone who is applying for jobs ought to make it his/her business to find out or know anyway, complaining about errors but not practising what you preach.

The only point of mild interest was point number 10, but please elaborate as your point is quite vague and gives no examples for prospective candidates to emulate!

In the cold light of day does it matter what African's grammar/spelling is like? he is the one who has to be impressed, not make an impression, it doesn't matter one iota if he can't even read or write, it's irrelevant. He came on here because whether we like it or not, pilots are applying who can't even get the basics right, so in effect he came on to help.
Personally I'd rather he didn't help out by spelling out the basics because if my CV was in his pile it would stand a better chance of "making it through"
So get off his back, he posted to help.

Hi guys was very tired when I posted last message and trying to deal with 20 other things including replying to all cv's we recieve successful and unsuccessful which I felt was more important. We make an effort to take pilots from all backgrounds from modular to intergrated and instructors to low hours to try and give everyone a fair shot.

I don't really see the point in correcting my english, I do not always have the time or facilities to spell/grammer check my post, which are availible on word when you write letters/cv's. I post here to try and advise you guys and not to return me to my days of failing english GCSE. I do remember being a wannabe and that is why I try to advise and bother to reply to all cv's. The previous post was meant as advice for all cv's you send, not just to my company. My point is sometimes you get one chance to have your cv in the right place at right time so don't f*ck it up.
Best luck to all AD

Make sure you recycle too ;).

Just out of interest, would a CV on illuminous green paper get a look in for being original :p ?

Dunno about CVs, but there was some kind of rumour going around a while back that you needed to wear something orange to an Easyjet interview - a tie clip, cufflinks, just something. If you didn't know this then you hadn't done enough research. So rumour control has it, one chap turned up in a bright orange jump suit :D

The rumour I once heard was that you should turn up in a shirt with no tie, blazer and chinos.

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/media/images/feeds/reuters/business/2006/02/14/150/2006-02-13t131942z_01_nootr_rtridsp_2_oukbs-uk-transport-baa.jpg

:ok:

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but this thread reminds me of a captain I once flew with. Always trying to give me "advice" on how to "be" a FO, when his SOPs were all shot and his airmanship left a little to be desired.

Either lead by example or don't lead at all.

Rats! You beat me to it!:ok: Not a horse in sight.:D

So what kind of thing would make you laugh Mr Drunk?

I believe getting extremely drunk and having a moustache drawn on your face with permanent marker could raise a giggle? ;)

:ok:

I think the point is,
Mr Drunk has to be impressed not perfect, unlike a prospective employee

don't forget to make sure that there are no oil stains on the CVs :P

Tunalic has one point, but if Mr Drunk wants to advise people whilst criticising failed applicants, and not look daft, he needs to practise what he is preaching. I think that's the other point which is being made here.

Anyway, how about tripping over on the way through the interview room door for getting a laugh? Still got the job, but it was a difficult and hot recovery. :\

African Drunk will not post on wannabes anymore as his English is not up to standard. I think many of you have missed the point of my original post. If the post had been a formal letter or cv I would have taken more time over it. It was not, it was a quick note done in 2 mins. I am not trying to lecture anyone I was trying to help people not to get their cv's binned for stupid reasons. To be honest send what you like it does not affect me if we bin cv's.

AD,

I think people understood the point of your post. However, if became a case of the pot calling the kettle black because in doing so you made errors of the like that would normally give you reason to discount people from the selection process.

Indeed, it detracted from the credibility of it.

I think we can all say point taken on all sides and put an end to this thread.

Points to remember....

There is no right format for a resume
Never put your date of birth, It's illegal to hire on age
Don't put your employer's name if your employed
Be correct, type it, spell correct
You probably will never know where your resume ends up, so you can't address it to someone specific
Write very brief intro letters.

Remember that the person who first reads your resume probably knows zip about aviation, and the guy that actualy knows something about aviation probably wants something so specific, most chief pilots hire buddies, people they went to school with, the guy that washes thier plane, the guy that kisses thier butts.

A guy I know who just go on with Southwest, said it took three years of siding up to certain guys, certain people, buying the beers, on and on.

Your resume is just a starter, make it look good, but it's not what will get you hired, it will get you the phone call or letter.

And when you don't get that call, just remember its not the most qualified that get the call, but people who they know, who they like, who they get along with, who will tow the line, play the game.

SSG what a load of bollox...your method of getting a job certainly isn't how most of us did it. :rolleyes:

This website makes me laugh (groan), someone who is in charge of hiring pilots for a decent company makes a post with some advice to prospective candidates and gets ripped by people who have absolutely no clue of the industry at all! :ugh:

This is why so few professional pilots bother posting on this forum. It's useful, sensible advice, and I have binned CVs (non-pilot ones) for exactly the same reasons.:D :D :D :D

African Drunk, there are many people who will have read your first post and who will have appreciated your pointers. I for one do not take as much care when typing on here as I would do when typing out a CV. After all I'm not trying to impress anyone here.

I can't believe the amount of grief African Drunk is receiving here ! Unbelievable. The guy gives some advice on what really should be basic stuff here (but apparently not to a significant amount of wannabees as they are sending shoddy CV's and covering letters) and receives a drumming !

African Drunk, you're welcome to my CV and letter anyday, if I knew what airline you worked for ;-).

CG.

I second that. African Drunk is simply trying to help ..... stunning ingratitude from wannabes no wonder they aren't getting any interviews ;)

True. Many people shift their attention to 'terms and endearment' rather than the wannabes forum as soon as they get their break. All credit to someone taking time out to help the new guys. Let's hope some of us are good enough to do so when our time comes. Thanks AD.

Troy McClure, boogie-nicey, Canada Goose, camel toe, Mercenary Pilot.....
here here!:ok:
African Drunk, thank you for the advice. You are very welcome to my CV, all i need is a PM with an Email address. :)

(Beer, Rugby and Strippers sounds good to me!:})

African Drunk, fair play to you offering advice to those starting out in the prof. For those who feel it necessary to put the advice down, I'm sure AD doesn't lose any sleep.

hi everyone,

could anyone point me in the direction of finding a good cv/cover letter format.

i have done all my flying in the us (including 121) and am having some difficulty "reaching out" to companies.

i met a marketing person the other day and was told cv/cl are somewhat of a different format in EU.

thx

Well some pointers some may be obvious are in this thread - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=280564


Heres what helped me when creating my CV - http://www.cvtips.com/CV_example.html


Oh yeah, also attach a letter if you can to reinforce that you are serious and not some jackass sending your CV everywhere. (or go to local libary and you can get a creating your cv book, that'll be the best place to get a A* cv.)

African Drunk, I agree with the last 2-3 posts. Thank you for your pointers.

I find amazing how the "tools" shine in this forum due to anonymity.

If you idiots knew who AD was and you were considering his company for hire, I am pretty sure your noses would have been brown, but anonymity gives you the ability to show your real IQ. Good job gents :D

Thanks ad epic

Yo yo AfricKan Drwunk

I phound ur pointz like massiivlly well good! I tink me no wat 2 doo to get I a job. I is intergrated studant therefur like better than everone else, and DESERVE me job and me no it two. Me where me skool uniform wit bars on it(well nice) when me banging in me bad boy warrior. I is a king! So giv us a job bro!
Respect!:=

Charles Sherlock Cromwell III

Rednex,

maybe you could write in a proper understanding manner rather than a 3 year old!

Globeflyer,

Lighten up on Redneck. His thoughtful expression of gratitude was kind and generous and so much more original than just jumping on the dogpile with critical and sarcastic remarks like so many others have posted!

African Drunk,

You could have edited your original post and corrected the error. It would have saved you a bit of grief and helped keep the seedier side of PPrune in check. It's too late now, but had you done it the first day this thread might have gone in a worthwhile direction.

Hopefully your company has ways of catching out the rude and cynical arses during their interview process. I'd hate to think you, or any other airline for that matter, might actually hire some of the wannabes that have spit in your face here.

Hello guys!

I wonder one thing about the cover letter:
when you write to many companies, do you do one letter for each company or you send the same letter to all companies (easier and quick) ??

thank you

Bonjour Sam,

I wouldn't be sending the same letter to easyJet as the same one to Air France. It'll be binned immediately.

You change the names obviously and I used to tailor each letter accordingly.

There is loads of advice on the web for writing CV's and cover letters. Most of them are American sites but nonetheless there is good information to be gleaned. A number of the big job agencies like Monster etc have sections on how to write a CV, cover letter, even interview tips. Go to a decent bookshop as well and invest a tenner.

Never underestimate the importance of a good cover letter. Consider this....You are applying for a job in the Scottish Highlands and live in France. They will get hundreds of CV's, many of which will be from people that are either Scottish or have a connection in some shape or form with Scotland. If you are not to get your CV binned immediately then it seems pretty clear to me that you need to come up with something that grabs them and why you should be considered and how you are going to be committed to them and not f*ck off after you have 1000 hours under your belt. Another very important point is that if you really want the job then you are immediately available. Put this in every cover letter. You can sort out your own personal issues after you have the job. If a chief pilot wants pilots then generally they want them into the training system now and not after you have mowed your grannys lawn and gone with the lads to Ibiza etc etc.

If sending your CV via email treat the covering email as you would a paper cover letter. Many people send a CV with "please see attached" as their email. Not hard to work out that most people with their heads screwed on are going to form an instant opinion that someone can't be ar*ed writing even a quick paragraph. The HR department is likely to print out the covering email and attach it with the CV for consideration. Same goes for online applications where you get 500 words or so for writing a bit about why you want to work for the company.

Finally consider this. Its taken you possibly 2 years or more to get to the position where you are qualified for that first right seat job. Take the time to give yourself the best shot at getting that job. Don't just fill in a form or fire off a letter for the sake of it without a bit of research. Good well researched and thought out job hunting will take you weeks if not months. It doesn't happen quick. And don't stop there. Start studying for that interview because you just might get called in the next few days.

2 1/2 pages is TOO long...
I've honed 13,000 hours down to 2 pages with 6 flying jobs under my belt. Hope never to have to use one again (although it's always ready...:E)
T

WTF is wrong with an email address ending in @<hidden>/@<hidden> ???????? :rolleyes:

Quick question for the ones whose already made their CV!

I've made my C.V. but seen one of my friends which was pretty nice but he listed his flying experience in total time which obviously had his approved simulator time included from the CPL and IR which made his total time more beefier, how does everyone else list it?

Forget adding in sim time to total time, an airline recruiter will just subtract it (if you have given them the breakdown) to find your true total time. They are not interested in sim time even if the CAA are for issue of the licence. If you are 'low hours', you are 'low hours' and a handful of sim hours makes no difference.

PP

Thanks Pete, I thought so!

hi everyone.

ive done some work on my CV but need some idea of what people put in their covering letters. some posts on pprune have said a summery of flying experiance.

my question is how long should the letter be (ie- 1 paragraph or say half the page) and what else do you think it should include.

when i applied to university i found a good website that gave me tips on how to put somthing together. unfortunatly i cant seem to find the site anymore, but one thing i do remember is that the site told me to make the letter personel to yourself so the person reading in starts to make a picture of you in his/her head.

i got the place in university, but ofcourse a university personel statement is quite different to a job one. any idea on what to include for good first impressions?

Hi everyone,

Id like to ask about Penny Austin, as I heard she is really good interview coach. I tried to log on into her web site but its out of date. Can you please advise me how to contact Penny Austin?
I am a student pilot in UK and in April 2009 I should get ATPL, trying prepare for my interviews in advanced...

Thanks

CM, I like your optimism!

Perhaps yoy know somthing we all don't !?:E

EK

Hello,

I would like some help to do my CV, can someone show some examples?

Thks

Jetscreen - Pilot CV and Cover Letter Advice (http://www.flyjetscreen.com/cv.html)

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/353501-pilot-cvs-cover-letters.html

Thks for the help Nick

if a guy has a FAA ATP, and a JAR CPL, what do you write on your resume?

Male
FAA ATP
JAA CPL

Does anyone know of an aviation based
CV design service that has a decent feedback

Check pilotcarreerscentre.com they do cv design and the rest but u've got to pay tough

Darnit! Next thing you know, the airlines will start charging for tickets because the crews will want a salary for their efforts too!

Hi all,

Hoping this is the right place to post this question, but can anyone possibly point me in the right direction with where I can find a good template for 'Airline style' CVs?
Everywhere on the net wants rediculous amounts of money for this and as a post 'Grad' after finishing my ATPL exams, I can't afford to pay out huge sums of cash for this, would rather save for that next logged hour! :ok:
Not sure if it makes a huge difference to which sector of aviation I'm applying to, but to help me along my way to finishing the hour building, CPL, MEP and IR, I was thinking about applying for something along the lines of ramp agent or even checkin staff (excuse the life story)!

Any pointers on designs or templates offered would be kindly appreciated.

Best,

Check this link out....quite concise and helpful.

jetcareers.com - Pilot Resumes (http://jetcareers.com/content/view/72/95/)

Just a quickie.
Should a posted CV be folded in to A5 or put in an A4 envelope and kept all flat???

My opinion A4 kept flat and use decent paper. Looks more professional.

Also, now in the UK, folded into A5 makes you look like a cheapskate!:ok:

Is this a wind up?

If not and there are any other silly question's then I'll respond to the age old classic question about what colour pen -

Black. It photocopies better.

Hello all,

Quick question. Have just been rewriting the CV for a ground-based aviation job. I've only put on relevant employment, but this leaves a gap between Oct 06 and Apr 08. In that time, I did my commercial training, and held shelf-stacking, admin, bar and freelance research positions, and periods of unemployment. The plan is to put something in the covering letter explaining why the gap is there, but asking on another (non-aviation) forum, someone suggested it would be better to include that info on the CV as the gap is too big.

I'm v tight for space on the CV (any more will push it onto 2 pages, in fact), and I don't want to 'waste' CV real-estate with info on my shelf-stacking shifts!

Any thoughts from inside the aviation world as to where it's better placed?

Cheers

Wings

I've just been asking Miss Leezyjet who does recruitment for a large UK handling agent, and she said if it's for a ground based job, then 2 pages should be fine.

It's a bit of a problem when it comes to the flight training though as there are 2 trains of thought on this.

1) They will just leave as soon as a flying job comes up.
2) They have worked hard to train to fly so obviously have more than just a passing interest in the industry so could be a good employee whilst they are here.

She says put the info in the CV but mention in the letter that those jobs were to support yourself through training.

Hope that helps.

:ok: