SAA pilots

[jetway]

The latest ALPA-SA newsletter refers to some SAA pilots as ‘scabs’. ALPA is appealing to its members to stop moonlighting. I am just one of a significant number of experienced freelance professional pilots who have had their earning potential significantly affected by SAA crew for many years, and never more so than now. Last month, I earnt less than R7000 – there are quite a few SAA pilots who made a good deal more than that from their moonlighting! Sadly, the individuals who are doing these trips are good guys and excellent pilots, but they need to realise just how much effect they are having. They already have by far the best packages in the industry, so pressure should be applied from all quarters to limit their activities - there would be few complaints if they did instruction on their off days. I believe that in addition to ALPA, SAA should, for a number of reasons, also be acting to stop the moonlighting. In particular, if SAA is oblivious to the outside flying that its crew are doing, how can their rostering clerks be sure that flight and duty is not being exceeded? For instance, it would be very tempting for a crew member to accept a quick R3000 ‘dropoff’ this morning, and then to sign on for the London flight tonight. In that scenario, how would SAA’s insurers react to a claim?

[126.9]

So, are you suggesting that "Moonlighting" be declared illegal for SAA pilots? Especially now that it's affecting you? And where were you 20 years ago, when the self same activity left me unemployed? Or 40 years before, when it bothered others? Come off it! If you want an autocracy, call Bob Mugabe.

[Mobotu]

It seems once again apparent that African Airlines are refusing to follow the status quo set by other International Carriers to prohibit such potentially dangerous activity. There are numerous reasons why 'Moonlighting' should not be allowed to occur, none of which include the monetary aspect as highlighted by Jetway. Airlines worldwide have established for the reasons of safety and security foremost to ban their pilots from engaging in this activity. The possibility exists naturally of exceeding flight or duty time, injury or accident whilst 'moonlighting', delayed return causing cancellation of your real flight - plus others. When you join any large company (as pilot or CEO) you sign a contract which prevents you in engaging in any activity which could either damage or potentially harm the earning potential of your employer. In doing so you are in fact preventing yourself from working outside of the company if the possibility exists to break this clause. ie 'Moonlighting' would be included in this pretext. If in fact SAA pilots are engaging in this activity, then they risk possible action by their employer and will have little recourse either legally or from their union.

Think about it - is it worth the risk???????:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Gunship]

Guys, guys ... I was trained by a SAA pilot in 1977 - and man was he great ... strange that I sort of remember every flight and training .. old Rudi must have done "moonlighting" then but so was the whole flying school.

If my memory serves me correct , the WHOLE flying school was operated by SAA pilots and take a guess it was by far the best school then. (AVIA at Wonderboom).

I must fully agree on the flight hours issue - it is just not on to exceed your hours !

The more I think the less i think it is just about impossible to stop SAA pilot's from "moonlighting".

By the way : what do you call a brown - eye ?? Is that not also called moonlighting ? :D

[4HolerPoler]

There's nothing new about this and no amount of objection is going to stop it. Some of SAA's most senior pilots engage in it. How do you differentiate between the airline pilot doing a charter, flying a military aircraft on reserve duties, to flying in a sponsored aerobatic team or flying a warbird at an airshow? They're all doing what another pilot could do, in their time off.

It is the individual responsibility of the pilot to ensure that he does not infringe flight & duty restrictions between his "moonlighting" and his airline duties.

Whilst ALPA can lobby their members to desist from such activities, they have no means of controlling what members do in their off duty periods.

Sadly, it is the financial impact on folk such as jetway that raises this debate.

It's bollocks to suggest that SAA or South African pilots are alone in these activities - it happens all over the world; in the UK, the instructor killed in the tragic crash of a Spitfire purchased by a South African, was also a Boeing 747 captain; in the US Clay Lacy developed his very successful company, specializing in providing camera ships for the film industry - whilst still carrying out his primary profession of airline pilot, retiring as a 747 captain. Just two high profile examples of many thousands of successful dual aviation careers.

I sympathise with you jetway but I predict that your frustrations will continue, as there is little chance of controlling such activities.

4HolerPoler

[Tokoloshe]

Jetway, at the risk of winding you up, I disagree with your contention here.
What happens now if I fly for the airline in question and I want to keep my helicopter licence current, and I fly (and get paid) by a local charter company on my off days, are you
a) affected or hard done by ?
b) going to stop me ?
c) in possesion of whatever skills and experience I might have?
I am well aware of the Flight and duty limitations as a professional pilot but use these opportunities when they arise.
Are you going to sponsor me to keep my helo licence current?
I also do instruction at the local aero club for the benefit of the students and have never asked for any money in return. Don't get me wrong, I did my time in some of the more exotic spots but never complained about other people taking my work away....( Most didn't want to fly on contract; away from there shiny BM's , cellphones and DSTv remotes anyway...)
Finally, the last I heard, it is not a crime to have a passion for aviation. I fully agree with 126.9 's sentiments::p

[gearupgone]

The moonlighting SAA pilots fall into 2 categories - those who put something back in aviation and those that don't.
It must be realised that some of the most experienced pilots are in SAA, and there is a need for their experience to be handed down to future generations of pilots. I have no problem with the SAA pilots involved with instruction and sport aviation. They are the enthusiastic ones and without their input, aviation in Africa will continue its downward spiral.
I do however huve a BIG problem with the SAA guys who continue to grab freelance charter. - It is against their terms of employment (unless they have WRITTEN permission from their management). Not only that, but some of these guys will go so far as not to record flights in their logbook to keep within flight and duty. I can already hear them saying"NEVER". Unfortunately these "professional" pilots are are more like the dictators in the government that they despise so much - SELFISH AND GREEDY.
They will justify it with some or other excuse.
To all aspiring SAA pilots - just remember that your dreams of flying for SAA involve flying with these SELFISH, GREEDY individuals - and it is no fun sitting in the cockpit with them for a 10 hour day. Get used to them - they are not going to go away. Fortunately, there is a balance - the majority of SAA pilots are professional GENTELMEN and you get to fly with them as well. To them, I say thank-you for some wonderfull years of flying. These gentelmen set a wonderfull example - follow it and you will be happy inside. Join the "GREEDY BUNCH" and you will end up spending the rest of you life bitching about management, salary, roster clerks government and the like.
Make your ouwn Choice - don't become bitter.

[jetway]

No, I was not suggesting that moonlighting be made illegal, rather that SAA be proactive, and take a very close look at the activities of some of its crew. For instance, it is common knowledge that the LJ-45 based in Cape Town, has never been flown by anyone other than SAA pilots. Apparently, it routinely does long trips north of the equator, so if its tech log was carefully scrutinized, SAA might just get a major wake-up call!

[Gunship]

Some very good points being mentioned ...

I just can not see the South African Aviation scene without SAA pilots. They are so experienced, professional and has so much to give to the aviation industry (especially Southern Africa) that I really do not wish to see the Harvard skywriters, the various Pitts and Zlin pilots, etc etc ...

Have a good look - most of them was obviously also SAAF pilots so the experience is enormous.

In a way I can understand JETWAY 's concern that they might "take the bread from the table " of the lesser experienced guys.

Then again I personally do not know any SAA pilots doing the "normal taxi - jobs" , charters and so on. Maybe some of their lesser experienced guys so those ???

What is clear : There is no compromise in somebody's max hours per day / week / month ... the legal flying stuff.

[contraxdog]

Gunny,
Lets get this straight. SAA Pilots Moonlighting/Freelancing is not illegal as long as they are not breaking any laws.

They are all wonderful pilots and by gosh if they werent I surely wouldt get on one of SAA´s flights.

But think of this.
Not only do us hind tit suckers who (choose / have )to do this for living a have to lose out from a charter/contract because "we have a SAA pilot to do this charter/contract and that is what hooked the client".
Not only do we have to suffer the fustration of them scabbing on our flying jobs we also have to share the work with their Dream Team (Cadetts). They wanted them why dont they keep them!
I have no problem if they want to keep their licences current but just like us they have to pay for it. I didnt know SAA flew fling-wings?
I have no problem if they want to give instruction, I am sure it will be of the highest standard, as long as they remember there are some low time instructors that also need to make a living. So why dont they instruct their Own Cadet Scheme to keep it current.

They get paid such a nasty salary, if they wan to fly for pleasure why cant they pay for it, they surely dont need the money. If they do, no amount of freelancing is going to help in any case.

If they miss the type of flying we do, remember they made the choice, they have to live with it. If they cant live without it, let them resign and come join the ranks of the great unwashed.

They wouldnt like it if we scabbed when they are ingaged in labour disputes. We dont like it as well

Guys this is the bottom line

" You are Stealing a Living from those less fortunate than yourself. "
Stop it please.!!

[orgasmotron]

Guys, although I share all your centiments, I feel we are going about this the wrong way. SAA crew moonlighting or for that matter, all airline or fulltime employed crews should consider this practise carefully if they claim to be so experienced and professional. I think it is irrelevant what you employment package consist of since it is a free country and the constitutuion guarantees you the right to practise your profession. FDP does however comes into the equation but I do not see that as a big issue. Also, part time instruction can just benefit us all since the experienced instructors does not really compete with low time instructors for jobs. Most of the part time instructors do so for the love of it and also hold mostly Grade II or even Grade I rating whereas a lot of upcoming new instructors have Grade III ratings and need to give instruction under supervision. The monetary implications of part time instruction, mostly results in financial losses if being done in moderation i.e. travel, time versus hourly remuneration.

However, the big picture I feel is currency. Under Part 121 of the CARS, the operator needs to assure that all flight deck crew undergoes proficiency checks every six months on the aircraft which such crew member is most likely to operate. All airlines provide sim training and base checks to accomplish this requirement and then issue a certificate to that extend. As far as the smaller aircraft are concerned, this alone is very difficult to manage and enforce, and therfore the onus seems to go back to the freelance pilot. I would say, although not technically correct, a pilot who holds a valid proficiency certificate for a B200, would then also be current on the B90 etc and the same might go for the Learjets. SAA would not even have a pilot operate the B738 and B732 and keep a pilot current on both. How many of the moonlighting maniacs keep valid proficiency certificates for all the types they freelance on ? Part 135 also requires certain standards for proficiency. I am sure the charter operators do not pay for a SAA pilot to go and fly circuits and an engine out approach with and instructor every six months, so then who pays for that. Do these guys, as professional pilots should, pay themselves for these checks or do they just ignore them ? Do they go and read the operations manuals of all the companies they do freelance work for ? I doubt it. I am sure there are very profesional airline pilots out there that do just that. There currency and training becomes there own operating expense and therefore they are entitled to fly charter for reward. Guys like that can only be an asset to the charter industry and would set an example to all the freelance guys and I am sure would be welcomed by a lot of freelance pilots. On the other hand, there are also a lot of freelance pilots who also do not maintain there currency as per the CAR's and are also quite happy to charge R1.20 per KM to pilot a type that he/she has not flown for 6 months, let alone carry a valid proficiency certificate.

I have also experienced first hand some very experienced airline pilots which claims to be highly trained professional who arrives at Lanseria and then fly a twin on a charter which was turned down by 2 other freelance pilots. Why, because these 2 guys would not fly overloaded, does not matter how much you pay them. Now who is now the professional.

I would say the moral of the story - Stick by the rules. If everyone of these airline guys sticks by the rules, a lot less of them would be able to fly freelance. A lot of freelance guys who also do not play by the rules, would also not be able to fly 80 hours a month. That way, there will be place for the airline pilot who are indeed professional and ample space for the professional freelance pilot. Operators are also to blame, those operators that does not train crews, and just use freelance crews, attracts and sustain these practises, and as far as I am concerned, are the biggest rapists of aviation in this country. They do not employ or train anybody and if a pilot objects to a flight due to safety reasons, they just find another pilot who will do the job. I am sure they would not be so quick to dismiss a freelance pilot if they spend money training a guy, he then becomes an asset and not a liability. The big operator who sticks buy the rules, have figured this out a long time ago.

Happy moonlighting.

I suppose my argument sounds like Zuma's health laws, but what the hell. I suppose

[contraxdog]

Orgaz...,

Very eloquently said my learned friend.
In such company I will listen only.

[exjet]

Orgaz..

Well said. I wish the guys involved would listen.

I do think that there is a distinct difference, morally and ethically between sport and recreational - and commercial flying (flight instruction - excluded)

Good luck out there - to the others, I hope you sleep well at night.

[Gunship]

Contraxdog .. sorry mate that you must suck the hind tit on this one but I think the "eloquently - correct" Orgazz made his point (and I think a lot of people will share in it) :

The point as previously mentioned is quite straightforward : For a SAA pilot to moonlight : he needs to do a lot of legally correct actions. If he sticks to it (and should of course) - I can not see how you guys can suck the hind tit. :confused:

[saywhat]

So let me get this straight, we airline types can suck the hiney, and do the give back to the aviation bit, but must back off from the rest. I say if you cant earn a reasnoble sallary freelancing, then perhaps you must ask yourself why. Easy to put the blame elsewhere, when perhaps you should ask yourself, did I phone ALL the companies yesterday?

Freelance is exactly that. It is not a job that is there for the luckless that cant find full time employment. I know of a pilot that flies for a large company, yet does freelance work. Is this OK, as he is not an airline type. I think that companies employ freelance pilots because of their experience, knowledge of company procedures, ability to handle the client well, amongst many other reasons.

Bottom line guys, if you are good at the job, you will find work. Do not blame others where the lacking may be with yourself.